SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[jeronimus]

One doesn't have to let shadow creatures overshadow anything. If the replicating story beats, creative expansion, adaptation and modernization, of vibrant characterization of what was expected from the OG is what you enjoyed and wished for. Congratulations, you received it. It's all is still there.

Yes, that's exactly what I said in my post. The good stuff is there and it's great, but to me, this shadow stuff is not good stuff. Regardless of what its purpose might be, it feels out of place to me in relation to the rest of the story. If I can successfully come away from this game with the good stuff as a lasting memory, then that'll be nice, but what I and others consider to be missteps, that's still there. Negative feelings linger in a different way than positive feelings do and so, I am worried that it will overshadow the very good stuff.

They did expand the original story. They expanded it and stayed true to it's pacing and fundamentals.

Yes, that's exactly what I said in my post.

No, because the original story has been explored and expanded. The entirety of the climax with the Arbiters of Fate happened at the conclusion. It punctuates what already has been done. So I'm not sure what supposed further exploration you could've asked for, save for random FFXV road tripping that has Cloud and the others riding through Midgar in their stolen vehicles without form or function.

What I meant was, would they have been able to take the story further, literally, further down the story. Was this necessary for them in order to cap the story off at Midgar? If so, would it have been better if they hadn't done that and would the result have been a better narrative? I don't know. But this game cares about the "what if" so I'm posing the question anyway.

I'm not someone who wanted much more of Midgar necessarily. I don't think all of the potential complaints against the Remake are being made by the same person whose arguments are contradictory, in the way you seem to imply. In the way the story is told in the original? No, there's no need to be in Midgar longer, but they've made changes to allow for sidequests in the first place. They've introduced Sephiroth in Midgar and Time Ghosts who try to stop it. But the idea of changing the structure to allow for some kind of open-city is too far-fetched? I'm not saying it would be good; they didn't do it. But it would have been an alternative. I'll never end up killing the time ghosts telling me "this is how the remake HAD to be made!", so who the hell knows.

 

[jeronimus]

Sorry - I realized I messed up the quote tags and accidentally left a part of Makoeyes987's post in my response. I'll add to that and say I really do think they did a great job expanding and enhancing the original plot - which is exactly why I don't feel like they had to change much. Seeing familiar things in new graphical fidelity is exhilarating on its own, and the biggest praise for this game is coming exactly for all of the stuff that they nailed faithfully. The successful adaptation with some meaningful expansion is more impressive - and I'm glad the story beats are, for the most part, intact, though I think they'd be more effective if they all happened organically within the narrative, as they did originally.

 

[OWA-2]

It's all so contradictory... They seem to really care about the original story, adding all these little details that we remember so fondly, while expanding old plot points, and giving more development to the characters... But at the same time, they add a new element that literally asks us to forget the original story, and accept the new incoming one.

 

[Kratos]

It's all so contradictory... They seem to really care about the original story, adding all these little details that we remember so fondly, while expanding old plot points, and giving more development to the characters... But at the same time, they add a new element that literally asks us to forget about the original story, and accept the new one incoming.

I think it's more that they're asking us to be comfortable with potential change, while simultaneously trying to reassure that the narrative beats and character moments will still be represented with care.

In that sense, it's not contradictory at all - those two elements complement each other. They want to do some things differently, but they also want people to believe them when they say they care about FFVII's story, character, and world; so, they give us a recreation of Midgar which shows that care while presenting one hell of a mindfuck conclusion in an attempt to demonstrate how such mindsets can co-exist and aren't each others' antithesis.

Clearly, mileage varies on how successful that approach was with the audience. Nevertheless.

 

[Wol]

It's all so contradictory... They seem to really care about the original story, adding all these little details that we remember so fondly, while expanding old plot points, and giving more development to the characters... But at the same time, they add a new element that literally asks us to forget the original story, and accept the new incoming one.

I think its also one way they found to cause a bigger impact, considering the game itself is not revolutionary as the original inside the current market.

At the cost of consistency though..

 

[jeronimus]

It's mostly a matter of everything else feeling very FFVII, like, finally nailing the tone and atmosphere again, that makes this stand out. Maybe it's a misstep, maybe it feels out of place because it's new or because we don't know where it's going. It probably is going to be smart to focus for now on what does feel right.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think it's more that they're asking us to be comfortable with potential change, while simultaneously trying to reassure that the narrative beats and character moments will still be represented with care.

In that sense, it's not contradictory at all - those two elements complement each other. They want to do some things differently, but they also want people to believe them when they say they care about FFVII's story, character, and world ...

Accurate, and that's been what they've been doing since the moment they announced the game:

See also that super meta stuff in Cloud's last scene of the promotional crossover with MobiusFF, "Eclipse Contact":

(around 44:30-48:00)

And then there's that recent interview in which Nomura asked us to think of the original and the remake as separate. And probably other things still.

Really, they prepared us as best they could without spoiling everything.

It probably is going to be smart to focus for now on what does feel right.

Well put.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Yeah, as someone who admittedly doesn't like what I've seen of the ending or find it particularly interesting, I'm much less bothered by it now than I was at first. I like everything else I've seen of the game so much that the ending is whatever. Any impact it has on future installments (and how much I dislike that) is future-me's problem. For now, I just want to get back to Midgar.

 

[billy22]

Yeah, as someone who admittedly doesn't like what I've seen of the ending or find it particularly interesting, I'm much less bothered by it now than I was at first. I like everything else I've seen of the game so much that the ending is whatever. Any impact it has on future installments (and how much I dislike that) is future-me's problem. For now, I just want to get back to Midgar.

I am of the same camp. I think a lot of how I feel about this ending will depend on how the sequel turns out.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Is it just me that loves Sephiroth's smirk whem he tosses the Shira Building against Cloud and the others?

 

[Pizzachu]

He also looks insane in this game which is a plus. His eyes look more crazed than I've ever seen them before.

 

[Dark and Divine]

He also looks insane in this game which is a plus. His eyes look more crazed than I've ever seen them before.

Also loved the face he makes when Aerith says that everything about him is wrong. It looks like he takes that as a compliment.

Also, Tyler Hoechlin is not bad but, Flipping Hell, Toshiyuki Morikawa is just...perfect!

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

I'm going to read all the comments and already on page 6 and finding it really interesting.

I just wanted to vent out some frustrations with the game as I am one of the lucky people to receive it early in England and played it all the way through.

I know it was never going to be a complete rehash of the OG and didn't expect it to be however it has left me feeling quite disheartened and I know people will have the opposite opinion to me I just wanted to vent and hope that's ok.

So I really liked it up until the Shinra infiltration, I genuinely loved their presentation and characterisation of president Shinra and the executives (especially Hojo.)

I loved the story of the ancients in the building and how Shinra manipluated it for their purpose.

And I liked the mayor's role as well.

The board meeting was interesting right up until Hojo mentions "S and G cells." At that point I shouted "no!" I really, truly had hoped we would only ever see Genesis in CC and DoC. I really could not get on the board with that character he was unnecessary and incredibly annoying.

So what I did not like. There was no suspense no trail of blood even after playing it for like the fifteenth hundredth time it still has that suspense to it and eerie feeling even though I'm fully aware of what is going to happen.

Then we get the whole Sephiroth fight and I am truly sick of hearing the OWA and that used to be my favourite song now after so many rehashes it's becoming annoying and don't get me wrong I was super hyped to hear it in the final battle but not now and the wing is back, why did this become a thing? He only got a wing in the OG at the end and I get I'm being picky here.

So my next thing is when I played the original see the massacre, the Migar Zolom and then the flashback of Cloud's past, the summoning of Meteor and everything else I kept thinking there's no way they are going to defeat Sephiroth. He had a presence and when I heard "Those chosen by the planet" It unnerved me.

Granted this isn't just the remakes fault it also lays with the compliation as we have seen so many times Cloud kicking Sephiroth's butt. However when he kept popping up, I felt no presence and no concern. As his clear obsession with Cloud seems to be going into Sephiroth's KH esque characterisation. When in the OG he toyed (very cruely) with Cloud but was never obsessed with him.

The whisperers. I'm on the fence with I don't really get what they add. But will be interesting to see.

I don't like that Biggs and Wedge survived I felt they were great added story for Barret's story development and guilt.

Zack I don't think he is alive and I'm just wondering if Aerith is going to be saved or what.

I know some people don't think a lot has changed but I disagree. I feel like we are getting a KH story without the Disney characters.

Sorry for the long post and I hope I haven't annoyed anyone.

Sorry I forgot to add. I really loved that Aerith's more connection to the planet and she seems to be aware of much more and not telling the group.

 

[Theozilla]

Technically the Trail of Blood did appear in some form in the Remake. It's just that the blood is changed to Jenova's blood/bodily fluids/ooze, which (besides the in-universe Watsonian reasons for it) I think is understandable for needing to keep the game a T rating in the USA. Also as mentioned before, it's heavily implied if not outright shown, that Wedge doesn't survive, the Whispers shove him out a window on the upper floors of the Shinra building.

 

[ExampleZ]

So why would they visit every sector? Every moment they move freely above the plate puts them at risk for capture or confrontation with Shinra. There is no freedom of movement when they have to rely on fake IDs and Shinra's omnipresent security looking for them 24/7. That pacing and portrayal doesn't make any sense and is shoehorning an openworld gameplay model in a clearly linear, narrative driven story. And it certainly is less believable than the Arbiters because at least the ghosts result from the magical element of the setting and Sephiroth's supernatural meddling, instead of the characters seemingly doing all manner of road tripping amidst a crisis and manhunt.

The pacing is already drastically different from the original, so it wouldn't have been hard for them to come up with reasons for AVALANCHE to travel around the upper plate, and if they were really that concerned about relying on fake IDs and Shinra's omniprescent security then I doubt Jessie and the others would have risked going topside to visit her mother and steal some weaker explosives. Also there was never any hint at time travel being feasible in the original game or the rest of the compilation. If the original had a story focused on time travel (like with FF8) it might have made more sense but this wasn't the case, and it's far less believable than AVALANCHE finding excuses to travel all over the upper plate.

I don't know why everyone is so against time travel Chrono Trigger/Cross were great games Oh well I'm over here liking Doctor Who too though don't mind me!

Chrono Trigger is great, Chrono Cross not so much.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So what I did not like. There was no suspense no trail of blood even after playing it for like the fifteenth hundredth time it still has that suspense to it and eerie feeling even though I'm fully aware of what is going to happen.

I must confess to being disappointed about this as well.

Then we get the whole Sephiroth fight and I am truly sick of hearing the OWA and that used to be my favourite song now after so many rehashes it's becoming annoying and don't get me wrong I was super hyped to hear it in the final battle but not now and the wing is back, why did this become a thing? He only got a wing in the OG at the end and I get I'm being picky here.

...

Granted this isn't just the remakes fault it also lays with the compliation as we have seen so many times Cloud kicking Sephiroth's butt. However when he kept popping up, I felt no presence and no concern. As his clear obsession with Cloud seems to be going into Sephiroth's KH esque characterisation.

I share your burnout on that. After KH2, AC(C), Dissidia, and the "Fatal Calling" crossover with MobiusFF, I'm just kind of done with any mysterious, villainous rambling from Seph that isn't the lines of the original FFVII.

Darkness. Despair. Destiny. Pretty sure it's all got to be leading up to the one "D" Seph must really want to give Cloud.

Also as mentioned before, it's heavily implied if not outright shown, that Wedge doesn't survive, the Whispers shove him out a window on the upper floors of the Shinra building.

He survived Sector 7, though, which I believe was GSP's point since they brought up that event's significance in relation to Barret.

 

[Theozilla]

He survived Sector 7, though, which I believe was GSP's point since they brought up that event's significance in relation to Barret.

True, but I think all the additional Avalanche cell members who get killed defending the support pillar, somewhat make up for it (plus the civilian death in general). Like there are plenty of additional scenes of Barret ruminating on the consequences of the Sector 7 plate collapse in the latter half of the game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Barret's development over his teammates loss is not... well, lost. Their deaths have been merely reshuffled.

As for blood, I'm kinda shocked at that. I thought I saw imagery with blood there on the carpet but alas... I guess I'll have to see for myself.

Darkness. Despair. Destiny. Pretty sure it's all got to be leading up to the one "D" Seph must really want to give Cloud.

Pfft.... LOL I don't even know what to say to that.

I mean, fair enough. Let's just phone in Genesis then! I'm sure he'd love to fill in for the "villainous, jealous, First Class SOLDIER with a single black wing and malevolent streak" role that's necessary for the project!

And this is arguably the most poised, menacing, and horrifying rendition of Sephiroth we've seen thus far, which is a function of the incredible graphics/design of the Remake which he now benefits from, along with being in his own world/game. The previous depictions feel like mere pale imitations compared to actually seeing this.

The pacing is already drastically different from the original, so it wouldn't have been hard for them to come up with reasons for AVALANCHE to travel around the upper plate, and if they were really that concerned about relying on fake IDs and Shinra's omniprescent security then I doubt Jessie and the others would have risked going topside to visit her mother and steal some weaker explosives. Also there was never any hint at time travel being feasible in the original game or the rest of the compilation. If the original had a story focused on time travel (like with FF8) it might have made more sense but this wasn't the case, and it's far less believable than AVALANCHE finding excuses to travel all over the upper plate.



Chrono Trigger is great, Chrono Cross not so much.

It certainly would, because if you notice within the pacing and progression of the story, the "off" moments of the game are perfectly slotted in places of the plot where such justification and limited free movement fits within the context. Having them go topside willy-nilly with absolutely zero reason or function breaks the stakes and risk involved with fighting Shinra.

... And the reason Jessie risked going topside was because she needed the materials to get the explosives for the next bombing mission, not to mention the fact visiting family who has connections to Shinra is a far better and more compelling reason to take the risk than just going across Midgar just to sight see. Equating new meta-contextual expansion that utilizes fantasy concepts which exist independent of the everyday environment settings to how AVALANCHE has to carefully plan their movements to avoid Shinra, is apples and oranges.

 

[Theozilla]

As for blood, I'm kinda shocked at that. I thought I saw imagery with blood there on the carpet but alas... I guess I'll have to see for myself.

Oh it's still there, it's just purple Jenova blood/ooze. Implied to be from from Sephiroth (technically a Sephiroth copy that's being embodied/possessed by Sephiroth) carrying Jenova's body from Hojo secret big lab and up through the President's office.

 

[rkss]

@The Twilight Mexican Toriyama & Nojima also wrote Mobius FF as well.

 

[OWA-2]

Oh it's still there, it's just purple Jenova blood/ooze. Implied to be from from Sephiroth (technically a Sephiroth copy that's being embodied/possessed by Sephiroth) carrying Jenova's body from Hojo secret big lab and up through the President's office.

Wait, Jenova didn't shapeshift into Sephiroth's form in this remake? The real Sephiroth actually carried its body?

 

[Theozilla]

Wait, Jenova didn't shapeshift into Sephiroth's form in this remake? The real Sephiroth actually carried her body?

No, a Sephiroth copy (who is shapeshifted/illusionned to look and sound like Sephiroth) breaks into Hojo's lab and carries the body out, technically it's two Sephiroth copies working together: the number 49 (also known as Marco) and number 2 (the ex-SOLDIER from Sector 5).
Presumably though, the Sephiroth who is fought during the final boss battle in chapter 18 is the retrieved Jenova body (or a piece of her).

 

[oty]

And this is arguably the most poised, menacing, and horrifying rendition of Sephiroth we've seen thus far, which is a function of the incredible graphics/design of the Remake which he now benefits from, along with being in his own world/game. The previous depictions feel like mere pale imitations compared to actually seeing this..

He sure was great when he wasnt talking about destiny, or fate or damn 7 seconds

 

[Grimmash]

A lurker here.

The 2015 quote of ''let us embrace whatever it may bring'' was right. The game is quite a meta-commentary.

Personally having played FFVII for over 20 years and to completion twice each year, I am glad we are getting some subversions to the old material while being respectful to the original source.

What I love in the game is the locale and of course the characters. But the music is just wonderful good stuff. The full version of the One Winged Angel in this chapter slaps really damn hard. And when it is all over we get the Hollow that made me tear up after just thinking about the possible context behind it.

If Hollow is written by Cloud's perspective as the writers say it is. Now knowing the full story behind the remake makes the song real emotional.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He sure was great when he wasnt talking about destiny, or fate or damn 7 seconds

I mean, if you wanna take a reductionist viewpoint of it, sure!

Chapter 3's midnight visit with #48 was creepy as fuck, and no words were exchanged.

But please share, who's your favorite villain?