SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[OWA-2]

And this is so true. Sephiroth has (or gained, he never came off this way while he perceived himself as human) malignant narcissism, which outlines all that he does and perceives about himself. He sees himself above all others and carries within him an unyielding maliciousness that manifests through murderous, sadistic rage. However, it's a cold, calculated and controlled rage that doesn't carry classic emotional outbursts, it's just a smoldering hatred that guides Sephiroth to commit the acts murder that he does.

However, the grievous injury and subsequent defeat he suffered by Cloud hurt him. It hurt him bad. He suffered what's essentially called a narcissistic injury that devastated his own perceived invulnerability and superiority. He felt fear, humiliation and shame.

Sephiroth had never been hurt, pushed, or caught unaware before that night. The night he declared himself a god and the chosen one to rule over the planet, he was made to feel the most vulnerable and human he's ever felt in his whole life. He went from feeling omnipotent and full of pride to being so weak he could only carry his mother's decapitated head with him. He then was subsequently tossed into the Mako Reactor wall, blown up, and he proceeded to tumble into a Mako Pit where he died.

That colossal humiliation would not be a slight a narcissist like Sephiroth would move on from. The entire realignment of his perceived invulnerability that Cloud inflicted onto him, has to be paid back and acknowledged. For Sephiroth to peacefully exist and reconcile his perceived invulnerability with what happened to him that night, Cloud has to suffer. Cloud has to break. Cloud must be made not just be smaller than him, but minuscule and beneath him in every conceivable way. For Sephiroth, that hurt he felt in Nibelheim has to be paid back with interest. Only when that happens will Sephiroth move on from him.

Let's just hope this is all there is to it, and not Sephiroth being pissed because of his 3 defeats in the Nibelheim Mako reactor, FFVII, and AC(C).

 

[Wol]

That article is back from January, and I think Kitase's point is more about the cultural impact Star Wars and FFVII had/have on their respective mediums and genre. Not that the approaches to storytelling are going to be the same. Also his main point was about how visual fidelity and effects change people's perceptions of storytelling, which is basic visual storytelling knowledge 101.

I assume the influence is a bit deeper considering he's a big fan, of course he wouldnt spill the beans on the hows (if thats the case). Still, its clear here they wanted something new.

 

[Theozilla]

I assume the influence is a bit deeper considering he's a big fan, of course he wouldnt spill the beans on the hows (if thats the case). Still, its clear here they wanted something new.

I mean lots of Japanese creatives Kitase's age (especially those who work in media) are big fans of Star Wars. It's a very common film series to be a fan of.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Let's just hope this is all there is to it, and not Sephiroth being pissed because of his 3 defeats in the Nibelheim Mako reactor, FFVII, and AC(C).

Well emotion and motivation always have some deeper insight beneath them. Sephiroth's anger, obsession and need for vengeance matches perfectly with a malignant narcissistic personality, not to mention Sephiroth's own words and behavior towards others. He's more than simply pissed, obsessed or petty. Those feelings exist yet are merely the surface expressions of his internal thoughts and emotions. The actions experienced and interpretations of those events within his head, are what really shape and motivate his behaviors.

 

[OWA-2]

Well emotion and motivation always have some deeper insight beneath them. Sephiroth's anger, obsession and need for vengeance matches perfectly with a malignant narcissistic personality, not to mention Sephiroth's own words and behavior towards others. He's more than simply pissed, obsessed or petty. Those feelings exist yet are merely the surface expressions of his internal thoughts and emotions. The actions experienced and interpretations of those events within his head, are what really shape and motivate his behaviors.

No, I mean, let's hope this isn't a Sephiroth from the future.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, I mean, let's hope this isn't a Sephiroth from the future.

Ooooooh

Yeeeah, I doubt that there's two Sephiroth's on the planet now. I don't even know how the hell that would work, especially since the inevitable conclusion would be for them to either team up or bitterly fight against each other for supremacy. At most, I could see the knowledge from the future being obtained by the current Sephiroth, but the actual Sephiroth from the AC inhabiting that exact same time period would be bizarre as balls.

 

[Wol]

might be that present Sephiroth gained knowledge, from the Whispers or another source, or maybe he used Time Materia.

presumably the Whispers didnt exist in the first time these events unfolded, because they needed a specific future to give them shape.

the question is what gave them shape, the planet as a defense-force? They are called guardians... or are they spirits but how they go back in time? Can you go backwards once you are in the river of life?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

might be that present Sephiroth gained knowledge, from the Whispers or another source.

It's something like this for sure. No way he just spontaneously came to possess this knowledge of a highly specific course of events.

 

[OWA-2]

The problem is that, if Sephiroth somehow has knowledge of his past defeats in the original game and AC(C), then this is a sequel, not a remake. And that means Square-Enix lied to us.
It would be like promoting Mortal Kombat IX as Mortal Kombat Remake. It would be false advertisement.

 

[Eerie]

Again, no this is not a sequel. I have said it again and again, but as Aerith said, "the future is a blank page". It's not written yet, it's being written. But we, the players, know how the game and the end go. So does AC:C!Sephiroth. Which is why there are theories that he sends back messages to current!Sephiroth about his own future, not his past.

It cannot be a sequel, these events have not taken place yet.

 

[Theozilla]

might be that present Sephiroth gained knowledge, from the Whispers or another source, or maybe he used Time Materia.

presumably the Whispers didnt exist in the first time these events unfolded, because they needed a specific future to give them shape.

the question is what gave them shape, the planet as a defense-force? They are called guardians... or are they spirits but how they go back in time? Can you go backwards once you are in the river of life?

I don't think there is any "first time" for the Whispers, the way Red XIII and Aerith describe them, the past, present, and future already have happened for them all at once, or at least are all accessible to them. And since they compare the lifespan of the Planet and its flow of time to a great river, the Whispers can just "swim" to any part of the river. Moving through time for them is like moving through space for us.

The problem is that, if Sephiroth somehow has knowledge of his past defeats in the original game and AC(C), then this is a sequel, not a remake. And that means Square-Enix lied to us.
It would be like promoting Mortal Kombat IX as Mortal Kombat Remake. It would be false advertisement.

Sephiroth having some vague knowledge of the future doesn't make Sephiroth from the future, the OG isn't some separate thing existing within the Remake. The base events of the OG are the events occurring in Remake. Unless something is indicated explicitly otherwise, there really isn't any evidence to call this a sequel.

 

[Wol]

I don't think there is any "first time" for the Whispers, the way Red XIII and Aerith describe them, the past, present, and future already have happened for them all at once, or at least are all accessible to them. And since they compare the lifespan of the Planet and its flow of time to a great river, the Whispers can just "swim" to any part of the river. Moving through time for them is like moving through space for us.


Sephiroth having some vague knowledge of the future doesn't make Sephiroth from the future, the OG isn't some separate thing existing within the Remake. The base events of the OG are the events occurring in Remake. Unless something is indicated explicitly otherwise, there really isn't any evidence to call this a sequel.

So the timeline is a loop?

There has to be a first time for them, they needed the future that gave them shape to arrive first, before starting to guard the timeline.

As for this being a sequel or not, if it overwrites the original events because future Seph returned to the past, then it is a sequel.

 

[oty]

It's normaly a sequel when there is explicit intel about it. As long as it stays vague, this game can be a Remake, Reboot, Reimaigining...all kinds of r-words pretty much.

 

[Theozilla]

So the timeline is a loop?

There has to be a first time for them, they needed the future that gave them shape to arrive first, before starting to guard the timeline.

As for this being a sequel or not, if it overwrites the original events because future Seph returned to the past, then it is a sequel.

No, it’s not a loop. It’s like how Doctor Manhattan experiences time in Watchmen, time still flows linear for the world as a whole, but he experiences time all at once. Likewise the Whispers are the will of the Planet expressed throughout all of time. Think of the Planet as Doctor Manhattan and the Whispers are its synapses.

And as discussed before there currently isn’t any evidence that Sephiroth in the Remake is from the future, he just has some vague knowledge/awareness of the future.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The problem is that, if Sephiroth somehow has knowledge of his past defeats in the original game and AC(C), then this is a sequel, not a remake. And that means Square-Enix lied to us.

It can be both.

The opening bombing mission was remade.The Guard Scorpion fight was remade. Air Buster was remade. The infiltration of the Shin-Ra HQ was remade. And so on, to all components of this section of the original game.

That these things are also a sequel from the perspective of the fictional narrative doesn't nullify what they add up to in real life.

 

[Wol]

It's normaly a sequel when there is explicit intel about it. As long as it stays vague, this game can be a Remake, Reboot, Reimaigining...all kinds of r-words pretty much.

well officially its a Remake, but they subverted the meaning of what is a Remake (as we understand in current industry), it can also be a multiverse reimagining semi-sequel reboot for all we know.

they did this way so that each fan chooses their favorite interpretation of the mess they created, so generous...

 

[Tetsujin]

Me watching the ending like

 

[Makoeyes987]

Was waiting for you to make it to the other side

 

[Theozilla]

You and the characters themselves both.

 

[OWA-2]

I guess I'm gonna have to try getting used to it. But it's still hard to swallow. Because I didn't ask for a ReimaginedRebootSequelRemake. Nobody did. We just wanted a remake!

*sigh*

By the way, are all the Keepers of Fate destroyed?

 

[Theozilla]

There’s really is no evidence yet to call this a sequel though.

The Whisper singularity over Midgar was destroyed but I doubt Whispers as a whole are destroyed.

 

[Alex Strife]

Well. So I finished this.

Not even sure what to think!!

I know I'm VERY excited for what's to come. But at the same time, I'm... confused by that ending.

 

[Tetsujin]

I was worried they'd do a stealth Rebuild of Evangelion and...this ending seems to go in that direction? I don't know. I'm gonna go back and read through the thread but what's the consensus on that Zack nonsense

Like, I'm afraid ultimately they didn't call this Remake Part 1 or anything because only this is gonna be a Remake of anything FFVII and the next part is just gonna be something altogether new and some sort of timey-wimey stealth sequel or something

I DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK DOES ANYTHING MEAN

WHY COULDN'T YOU JUST DO A STRAIGHTFORWARD ENDING MAN

WHY YOU GOTTA BE LIKE THIS


but hey that Sephiroth final battle was a lot of fun and dope as fuck

also wow you introduce a new motorcycle-riding character and then the fucker fails to even show up for the most important motorcycle part
I really expected Roche to make one more comeback

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Alex Strife
Look at you, getting and beating it before official release!

 

[Theozilla]

I have no doubt the developers are expecting everyone to come away at least a little bit confused. I am confident the confusion is intentional, when the characters themselves are calling things bullshit.