SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Makoeyes987]

We know that, I posted that earlier.

But I think they're talking about just how deep the rabbit hole goes in terms of this plot point.

Yes, the Whispers do come from a future.

What the future is, is unknown at this time. There is no answer or contextual information on it. We just know it's "a future timeline."

 

[oty]

Just read Makoeyes post. It's still very early to have such strong considerations into a possible theory. I mean, what do you want us to answer? It might be that? It can also not be. It can be 30 different things, we have no idea which one.

 

[Wol]

I'll remain hopeful that, as they did with this first remake, most of the main plot bits will stay truthful to the original.

I think the backlash would be too big if they simply followed a drastic different route on future parts.

 

[Pizzachu]

Now that I think about it, why was that ad of Stamp's friend there? What significance did it provide by putting it in front of the player?

 

[rkss]

fair enough

 

[Noble0ne]

Seen the full game, and a good amount of side quest.

I didn't like ch18. I liked every other chapter but, 18 went off the rails.

•fighting Jenova in shira HQ, had me thinking that's early, but whatever. ( End of 17 I know but still it's a endgame boss vibe of sorts, being harder than all the upcoming boss fights until Sephiroth).
•I Did not like the giant Watchman of fate boss battle. Killing it's lesser normal size spirits over and over was so repetitive. And lame, having that big thing go down like that in the first place. what's the point of such an oversized enemy if it goes down like a Disney boss battle. why not an epic GoW3 battle. They were gassed upon kingdom hearts for sure. Then, the question of what are the whispers is a mess including how/if Sephy influences them any.

•I Don't like that we fight Sephy in the end. clearly, the squad didn't even scratch him, so what purpose did that fight serve in the endgame, fan service? Plus Who is the big bad boss in the next game, Sephiroth again?... And then again in part 3? I would have been happier fighting him as an unlockable simulation in Shinra HQ like a practice trial then ending with fighting the watchmen.

The cut scenes changed so much I Don't know how to feel.

So much changed in one chapter... It seemed hella rushed if you ask me, more so than some ingenious plan. Like the winged it to get the game out and felt they will clean up the mess in part two the way, they winged the Kingdom Hearts plot... Less written care and more deadline focus.

Also, cloud being so shaken about sephiroth was kinda weak. In the OG he was shocked at his survival, yes, but more so wanting to imitate him and ready to cut him down again than afraid. Now, he pisses his pants over and over at the sight of him. I liked cloud better when I imagined he was ready to rip a new one into sephiroth even though he wasn't skilled to the extent to do so... I relate to a fearless hero, not a wuss

Why not take out watchmen fight & Sephy fight & have Sephiroth chunk a part of JENOVA at you at Midgar edge, the way he did on the OG on the Junon boat???? Nova is no longer too soon. Plot-wise it pays more homage to the OG how Sephy ran off with Jenova. & Sephy fight not disrespectfully spoiled when your too weak to actually face him because you have not undergone enough trials... They dare pit us up against the O.g. Don so soon, smeh

 

[Wol]

It went too crazy, too space-y too fast... theres a tonal dissonance that irks me.

also the watchers of fate looking like heartless sperms uniting to form a Kingdom Hearts boss is uninspired and doesnt match.

anyway, now we know Sephs main motivation, to reach the Edge of Creation, whatever that means.

 

[Noble0ne]

So, some players loved every second of it.... Okay... but ethos building wise... How the heck are they going to make this work out... For the pacing when game 3 bundle packs come out. Sigh

I rather have 3 short games that correlate. Than 3 full game that Dont tie in well

 

[Noble0ne]

The should have used Rona Virus to push back release date... And think about there crimes against mythology xD

 

[Wol]

Btw, from all the cool ideas they could pick to enhance the story... why not give us a flashback playable sequence (maybe with Zack even), more on the ancients?

hundred ways they could make the story fresh even for old players, they chose the most overused and dangerous elements: fighting fate, destiny, timelines...

everything inside the canon was done wonderfully, but once they stepped out of the canon, this is what we get. Bad sign if they're willing to create a new narrative.

 

[rkss]

Or maybe All things that we're seeing are just inside Cloud's head, he's hallucinating, at Mideel, waiting for Tifa to save him. SE is In Medias Res -ing us, they' ain't pulling a KH

I want to believe

 

[jackkyannn]

Sephiroth, after being defeated at the end of Advent Children by Cloud, went back in time trying to change the events by making Zack alive. In doing so, Cloud would not be as strong as he is in the original timeline, and Zack is unable to stop Sephiroth from carrying out his plan.

When SE said the original game remains very much intact, they are not lying. But they have created an opposite timeline, in which Zack is alive. From this, players can compare the original timeline and the altered one (zack alive), and understand why it's Zack's destiny to die and Cloud to take up his mantle to stop sephiroth. Had Zack not died, the planet will go down a worse path.

Not sure whether Chapter 18 is the last chapter, but this is my 2 cents after seeing the ending.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Seen the full game, and a good amount of side quest.

I didn't like ch18. I liked every other chapter but, 18 went off the rails.

•fighting Jenova in shira HQ, had me thinking that's early, but whatever. ( End of 17 I know but still it's a endgame boss vibe of sorts, being harder than all the upcoming boss fights until Sephiroth).
•I Did not like the giant Watchman of fate boss battle. Killing it's lesser normal size spirits over and over was so repetitive. And lame, having that big thing go down like that in the first place. what's the point of such an oversized enemy if it goes down like a Disney boss battle. why not an epic GoW3 battle. They were gassed upon kingdom hearts for sure. Then, the question of what are the whispers is a mess including how/if Sephy influences them any.

•I Don't like that we fight Sephy in the end. clearly, the squad didn't even scratch him, so what purpose did that fight serve in the endgame, fan service? Plus Who is the big bad boss in the next game, Sephiroth again?... And then again in part 3? I would have been happier fighting him as an unlockable simulation in Shinra HQ like a practice trial then ending with fighting the watchmen.

The cut scenes changed so much I Don't know how to feel.

So much changed in one chapter... It seemed hella rushed if you ask me, more so than some ingenious plan. Like the winged it to get the game out and felt they will clean up the mess in part two the way, they winged the Kingdom Hearts plot... Less written care and more deadline focus.

Also, cloud being so shaken about sephiroth was kinda weak. In the OG he was shocked at his survival, yes, but more so wanting to imitate him and ready to cut him down again than afraid. Now, he pisses his pants over and over at the sight of him. I liked cloud better when I imagined he was ready to rip a new one into sephiroth even though he wasn't skilled to the extent to do so... I relate to a fearless hero, not a wuss

Why not take out watchmen fight & Sephy fight & have Sephiroth chunk a part of JENOVA at you at Midgar edge, the way he did on the OG on the Junon boat???? Nova is no longer too soon. Plot-wise it pays more homage to the OG how Sephy ran off with Jenova. & Sephy fight not disrespectfully spoiled when your too weak to actually face him because you have not undergone enough trials... They dare pit us up against the O.g. Don so soon, smeh

I had a feeling the remake was another reboot in it's own way, because remakes always change and/or make new scenes compared to originals of anything.(There's one exception to that rule I know of and that was back in 2006 with the game no one likes at all apart from the music).

Plus the way how they made Cloud react this way to Sephiroth in this game is really sad. Even in Advent Children, Cloud wasn't shaky or terrified at all. Okay, maybe a little scared to see him again when Kadaj turned into Sephiroth, but nowhere near as shaking. The closest is his eyes showing some fear, but after that immediately he showed determination to stop him, and hatred towards the man who ruined his life and threatened to take away everything else he had left.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Nojima (was it Nojima? I think it was Nojima) already spoke about this in the story digest, about challenging the way some people perceive Cloud that some people might think he's so "cool" but is he really? Is it Zack that's the cool one? Personally as someone who suffers from and has a chronic mental health history I empathise and relate to Cloud a lot more. I don't think it's sad or wussy at all to show strong emotions or real fear, or have breakdowns, etc. Though I think Tash might have meant sad in context and not a that's pathetic sad

Spoiler

. I have to remind myself of that a lot at times but dealing with things like that carries it's own strength. I don't know it seems they are showing how truly broken Cloud was by what happened at Nibelheim and how he was able to take over him so easy at times in OG like at temple of ancients, city of ancients, northern crater, etc. Add in his childhood psyche and the fleshing out they are doing of that as well and so on. I think maybe this highlights exactly how serious things are as well and maybe goes towards explaining in part why Aerith and Tifa wouldn't say anything, perhaps they recognise the way things are and are being careful thinking they might trigger something and trying not to.

 

[Eerie]

We have to remember that Cloud is young and fairly inexperienced, and his fight with Sephiroth was mostly a reaction than a thought over what happened in Nibelheim. He's also now full of PTSD and trauma, and he's not even himself yet! Sephiroth purchased him with visions during the whole game, playing mind games with him, how do exactly people would feel if they are seeing things about a guy they killed but who seems not so dead now and they have to fight again?

I think it's justified and interestingly enough, it's also the most realistic way to show how Cloud truly is.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Cloud is the ideal protagonist for FFVII, exactly because he fits with the "defying expectations" the OG had set up for itself. Up until that point, the Final Fantasy series were mostly medieval fantasy, sometimes with steampunk elements. VII was the first time this game abandoned kings, queens, knights and everything else for a more realistic and modern setting. Midgar would be an impossibility in previous titles.

For such a game, a protagonist who was different from the norm was needed. Enter Cloud; swordsman, spiky hair, huge blade, frowned expression, aloof, badass attitude... and you go on and learn that he's mentally 16, suffers from PTSD and he's a liar who never made his dream come true: he was never "the best of the best" a SOLDIER. He was so embarrassed that he HID from his entire village because he couldn't bare his failure. A true SOLDIER, Zack, sacrificed himself to save his ass, even. Then, the same pathetic loser who couldn't even show his face after he bragged went and forgot Zack, while taking on a bastardized image of him, a mercenary who only cares about money.

Cloud has been pathetic since 1997 and that's why he's the perfect protagonist for VII, a game with twists and turns. It's the same guy who did kill Sephiroth in a moment of rage when the latter had his guard down (and Cloud did get defeated by Sephiroth even then) and the way he saved the world and defeated the Big Bad once and for all was a mental battle in his brain, where he simply had to destroy the image of the great war hero he had made up in his mind.

FFVII pretty much said that it's OK if you don't achieve your goals, if you're not a great hero... just get rid of your misconceptions, your idols, admit and embrace your weaknesses and you're good.

If FFVII was the typical JRPG of that time, Zack would have been the hero and Aerith would have lived. Buuut...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now that I think about it, why was that ad of Stamp's friend there? What significance did it provide by putting it in front of the player?

My opinion? It's telling us to no longer necessarily expect to see the events of the original game play out. When the Stamp's Champs ad freezes over the screen for that split second before it blows away, it noticeably says "Original" in one corner:

Also probably relevant: in this same scene, the weird dome explosion thing that was happening around Midgar in the present simultaneously appears around Midgar in the past for Zack to see and feel.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

If you're right, it's kinda hilarious that they used the new cartoon character they created just for the remake to show that the remake will be different from the OG.

 

[Arianna]

My question is... how does the Planet decide what is good and what is bad? We never really find that out in the OG!

I think anything that effects the planet is bad. Jenova,/Sephiroth wants to take over the planet. So, in this, I don't think it's what happens to the humans, more so what is going to harm the planet; but, I'm not trying to say that the planet doesn't care about the life that, in essence, makes it, is a part of it.

 

[billy22]

I will probably cancel my preorder. If they're going to implement convoluted plot elements like time-travel, I need to wait and see how the whole story is fleshed out first.

Most of the game looks fine to me. I like the graphics, the combat, the enemies, the world, and overall design and aesthetics. Dialogue writing could be better but it's a Japan thing. It is a lot like the original for the most part. However Biggs (and Wedge?) surviving is dumb. Barret getting killed oh-no-not-really-lulz was also dumb. I was never a fan of this 'ghost/whispers of fate' thing and I'm even less of a fan of it now.

By the final entry in this series, it may not even look like FFVII anymore. The more changes you make, the more the future titles will change with it. I can imagine Aerith and Zack being alive by the end of this (because time travel), and the story's theme changing to an 'overcome fate.' I've seen a lot of people say "oh, Square would never do that;" I used to believe that too, but I just can't share in such optimism anymore. What has Square done in the last 10 years to inspire such confidence? I don't even know why they thought it was a good idea to convolute the plot to this degree. And I'm not talking about this game specifically, but future games in the series. It looks like it's going to get messy.

Honestly, if they just called this an alternate universe instead of a remake, I'd be less upset about it. Then again, that's probably why they didn't call it "part 1," since future titles are going to diverge from it, thus no longer making it a 'remake,' but something different entirely. I just don't understand how dumb Square can be sometimes.

 

[oty]

I mean, okay? I completely understand your reaction towards this, but why would Square be dumb for trying to do this? Misleading? Maybe. Crazy? Pretty much. Dumb? I dont know about that buddy.

Its clearly a matter of taste. Square doesnt want to make the same game, never wanted. Yeah it sucks, but it is what it is. And Idk what to tell you about Square in the last 10 years...the relaunch of FFXIV? DQXI? Shadowbringers? Square's recent track is pretty much 50/50, atleast

 

[Wol]

I wonder if they will make Aeris and Zack live longer, just to kill them later.

changing the jouney, but not the destination kind of thing.

 

[Eerie]

It's funny cause, I feel the contrary. I'm super excited to see what stuff they'll change and how the story will evolve, see if they can write it in a satisfying way, etc. For me, it's super fun, plus there's going to be years of theories before everything is done lol. Definitely on the excited side, despite me not being able before the PS5 is out :'D

 

[oty]

I think it just shouldnt have been called Remake.

Honest to Bugenhagen, if the title was more appropriate? 90% of the complaints would be gone. Its not even a matter of "Square technically said...".It would have just made everything much easier.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

I think I might be more on board for the ride if they did something at the end that would probably cause positive discussion. This is a change that--at the end of part 1 anyway--I imagine most people will dislike, if not outright hate. So the already long wait for part 2 is no longer full of eager anticipation, it's more anxiety over what else is going to be different or how SE will screw it up. Is this even a remake anymore? Is Zack alive? Will Aerith live? None of those are conversations I think will be amicable or interesting.

I think even if watching the full ending makes more sense or is different from current impressions, what we've seen is enough to cause a lot of negativity towards the whole project. Hell, SE catches flack for basically existing. Trying to do something this daring might just cause negative attitudes to spread.