SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Makoeyes987]

Makoeyes987 I think MelodicEnigma is talking about a different thing. Specifically, how the final flashback that's right before the start of the credits (that Aerith presumably witnesses) cuts off right before Zack dies/gets shot in the back. I don't think MelodicEngima is saying they think that indicates Zack is still alive, but rather that Aerith within the story hasn't fully "seen" Zack's death yet, and that she as a character still can be plausibly in denial about his demise.

Ahh okay. My mistake then. That's certainly possible there.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

You know, I quite enjoy the site's real-time message system. I'm sitting here typing up a storm and—whoop, Theozilla said what I was going to say, now let me just—okay now Mako has posted, clearing it up. XD It's an unknown thing, my own battle with my keyboard, but it's probably funny to anyone watching me hit the backspace button a lot.

Anyway, yeah. To add, I don't think it's implied she saw more than what was cut-off for her at the bridge scene—I WOULD like to say the writing here is pretty explicit in us experiencing what the characters see, as it has been for any of the other vision scenes.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I think the phrase here is: "Why change sth that wasn't broken? It's broken NOW."

I'll wait for all the parts to be released first, even if it means I'll play the final one in 2040.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think people are ignorantly freaking out over a plot element they haven't fully uncovered or interpreted with the entirety of the context or information available in-game (through its lead up to the conclusion).

And acting entitled to a story adhering to one's own personal, subjective vision of it's scope or scale is ridiculously immature and personalized. Pre-order canceled? False advertisement? Really? Can we actually please be adults and not act as if Nomura burned down people's houses?

The individuals who have played and fully interpreted the game said it was an awesome experience and the game's original overarching story remaining in tact. Why? Because the entire nature of the story does play out with that very purpose in mind. You as the player protect it.

What people are doing is misinterpreting the Zack element and the scenes of the ending without any understanding of what there is going on.

So I'm going to share the preliminary info from someone who did beat it, however I am avoiding the details so my own experience isn't ruined. Believe it or not. But at the very least stop with the "ZACK LIVES!" or saying it isn't a Remake.

The tl;dr is that the Arbiters of Fate are moving through time to create a future that inevitably results in calamity for the planet. Sephiroth is utilizing this force (with seemingly some awareness of things beyond) and apparently making it to where the Whispers attempt to prevent Zack from reaching Midgar, dying on the way, and Cloud being able to be who he properly is within FFVII. How this happens is unknown but it's explained through the final chapter of the game.

In the end, the singularity point is destroyed and the Whispers along with it. Allowing Zack's fate to remain unchanged. We as the player don't see it. However Aerith witnesses Zack's inevitable conclusion. The heroes depart to find Sephiroth since he's still out there with another strategy (the Black Materia) to make himself a God.

See, we're getting drastically different summaries from different people. What you're describing here is precisely the opposite of what other folks have claimed -- i.e. that Sephiroth makes Cloud and co. think the Whispers are trying to "create a future that inevitably results in calamity for the planet," when what they actually are trying to do is recreate the events of the original story.

In any case, you admit in your rant that you aren't any more positive than any of us despite the definitive manner of your summary. =P

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

I mean, regardless of the quality of the additions/changes, by that logic the 1970s and 2005 King Kong movies aren't remakes. Exact recreation of the atmosphere/tone is rarely requirement for something to qualify as a remake. But I admit that's just a parsing of definitions/schematics.

That's a fair point. I should have qualified the term remake; even with tone changes, capturing the same events can qualify something as a remake. Whether that remake is successful to individual fans is still at issue.

Unknown. But again. I don't see this fundamentally changing what we understood about the project. Yes. Things may change. Yes. It will still be FFVII. This fear and rigid interpretation of how FFVII must or must not be is simply not going to be within the writer's heads. Expecting them to align to one single vision is not realistic. I can't tell anyone what to do but thinking they have to do one thing a certain way to be "true" to FFVII is a great way to be disappointed and stuck in the past.

This Remake has captured the most important unique aspects of each of its unique Midgar aligned events while simultaneously reinterpreting them. They've stayed true to literally all of the important parts, even those that some thought would be ruined. However people are gonna freak out because the writer's dared color outside the lines and give a unique take on their added element, which ultimately doesn't change anything of the core VII story? Come on.

"Literally all of the important parts" to you. I don't really have a problem with them changing things, but as soon as you have to use phrases like

"Fate" ultimately doesn't exist as a force. What is called "fate" are beings that are making a concerted effort to change the course of the planet via temporal manipulation to one that ultimately leads to destruction.

to describe what's happening it doesn't feel like you're telling the same story anymore. You can pick apart these phrases and say "oh they're just common tropes in fantasy villan plots" but that's exactly the problem. A lot of FFVII's world works so well because it avoids those as much as possible. Even the lifestream and all of its related jargon is more routed in traditional human beliefs in the cycle of life. That works because it fits the environmentalist aspect of VII's message.

But let me emphasize here: I don't hold this against Nomura or Nojima or think they're hacks. I just think they might be telling a story I don't care about.

 

[Wol]

Well i just hope mako's interpretation is right, another way i could see this stuff being tolerable is if those time-shenanigans are tied to Jenova.

Being an alien, having the power to warp the planet in various forms, and time itself so she can guarantee her existence.

So when the party truly defeats her, all the other timelines are erased leaving the planet with a normal and linear timeline.

 

[Theozilla]

From what I have heard Jenova abilities are definitely being expanded. Apparently leaning into more of her being some sort of eldritch entity or something.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, we're getting drastically different summaries from different people. What you're describing here is precisely the opposite of what other folks have claimed -- i.e. that Sephiroth makes Cloud and co. think the Whispers are trying to "create a future that inevitably results in calamity for the planet," when what they actually are trying to do is recreate the events of the original story.

From what I've been told about the game's conclusion, and the bits of it I've seen? It's regarding the interpretation of Sephiroth's vision of what's best for the planet, clashing with what the heroes feel is best for the planet. Sephiroth somehow attempts to manipulate and exploit this force of Whispers for his own ends. And this leads to the Whispers trying to prevent Zack's attempt to reach Midgar. The actual battle of the Remake is happening simultaneously within the past and present of Midgar. Hence why Midgar is covered in Whispers during Zack's time period.

The nature of what future these things come from, I do not know. I also don't know how Sephiroth attempts to manipulate them, nor how he gets awareness of what exactly it takes to ensure his own success with them.

In any case, you admit in your rant that you aren't any more positive than any of us despite the definitive manner of your summary. =P

Well, I did say "believe it or not," but given what I've been told and the playthrough this player did while seemingly paying attention, I'm inclined to believe them. And there are more things to unlock and reveal through the hard mode of the game. I think this is something that may potentially be elucidated from that.

"Literally all of the important parts" to you. I don't really have a problem with them changing things, but as soon as you have to use phrases like


to describe what's happening it doesn't feel like you're telling the same story anymore. You can pick apart these phrases and say "oh they're just common tropes in fantasy villan plots" but that's exactly the problem. A lot of FFVII's world works so well because it avoids those as much as possible. Even the lifestream and all of its related jargon is more routed in traditional human beliefs in the cycle of life. That works because it fits the environmentalist aspect of VII's message.

But let me emphasize here: I don't hold this against Nomura or Nojima or think they're hacks. I just think they might be telling a story I don't care about.

The core fundamentals of what progresses as the narrative of the original FFVII do remain the same. They happen and progress in their proper direction. The events are reinterpreted within a new adaption that was never a 1:1 Remake from the start. If that problem was an issue for someone before, this changes nothing. If it wasn't a problem before, this changes nothing either. It's a new overarching plot unique to this installment that resolves itself and ends with the fundamental core FFVII narrative remaining the same. Sephiroth's powers and abilities have seemingly magnified. And that's par for course with the fact he was going to be showcased more in Midgar anyways.

It's the same story with a new additional thread that moves parallel to the OG's and ends as the original story moves onto it's next part. Your subjective of opinion of what should or shouldn't be included in an expansive adaption of FFVII's story is understandable and your own, however it doesn't somehow negate the FFVII-ness of FFVII-Remake. The Lifestream has never just "avoided the common tropes" given that the Lifestream has gone from being able to hold a will of it's own, manifest a Goddess, and seemingly create an entity that serves as an ark to sail the sea of stars. You're selectively picking and choosing what portions of the Lifestream are "FFVII" to you.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

From what I've been told about the game's conclusion, and the bits of it I've seen? It's regarding the interpretation of Sephiroth's vision of what's best for the planet, clashing with what the heroes feel is best for the planet. Sephiroth somehow attempts to manipulate and exploit this force of Whispers for his own ends. And this leads to the Whispers trying to prevent Zack's attempt to reach Midgar. The actual battle of the Remake is happening simultaneously within the past and present of Midgar. Hence why Midgar is covered in Whispers during Zack's time period.

My God, I can't believe this is a real paragraph. Whichever intent behind the Whispers and Sephiroth turns out to be the accurate one, this really is so fucking bizarre.

 

[Makoeyes987]

My God, I can't believe this is a real paragraph. Whichever intent behind the Whispers and Sephiroth turns out to be the accurate one, this really is so fucking bizarre.

It's all fun and games until the villain somehow punches a hole in space-time as their fight seemingly bleeds temporally

Like I said, I don't know how he does it. It's something that I wish to find out on my own. But it's wild. That's for sure.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As confused as we are, newcomers to FFVII must be wtf-ing harder.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Wait, does that mean that, essentially, they're using the Whispers as a way to describe why certain things happen in the past? Zack was always fated to die, but that sounds like their intervention specifically ensured it'd happen the way it did...I guess? Which is like the whole—go back in time to change things, only to find that you going back in time is what caused things, and—

I hate time travel.

I feel like I'm also missing a cutscene too, cause other than the bright light thing that Zack sees, I don't remember the Whispers interfering with anything.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wait, does that mean that, essentially, they're using the Whispers as a way to describe why certain things happen in the past? Zack was always fated to die, but that sounds like their intervention specifically ensured it'd happen the way it did...I guess? Which is like the whole—go back in time to change things, only to find that you going back in time is what caused things, and—

I hate time travel.

I feel like I'm also missing a cutscene too, cause other than the bright light thing that Zack sees, I don't remember the Whispers interfering with anything.

Zack is no more "fated" to die, than you are fated to type this reply and question the nature of this plot

However, something or someone is aware of the causality of events that lead up to the success or failure of saving the Planet. Sephiroth becomes aware of this, and with said knowledge tries to make Zack unable to move towards the events that lead up to FFVII being FFVII. How or why this happens is something that I'll see for myself but that's what he's doing. It ends with the door seemingly closed and the destruction of the Whispers.

 

[Wol]

Wait, does that mean that, essentially, they're using the Whispers as a way to describe why certain things happen in the past? Zack was always fated to die, but that sounds like their intervention specifically ensured it'd happen the way it did...I guess? Which is like the whole—go back in time to change things, only to find that you going back in time is what caused things, and—

I hate time travel.

I feel like I'm also missing a cutscene too, cause other than the bright light thing that Zack sees, I don't remember the Whispers interfering with anything.

If you change the future you change the past.

Paradoxes are anomalies in the timeline.

<_>

I mean, Sephiroth is turning out to be like Caius.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's one way of looking at it, but we (or rather specifically I) don't know what future these things come from.

They attempted to change the past but were thwarted.

I can't say I know who or what allowed this anomaly to occur but it ultimately did, and Sephiroth seemingly attempted to exploit it. And that was what was prevented.

 

[Wol]

watched the last segments and it does seem this is leaning towards a retelling, too many signs.

before entering the dark sperms portal, Aerith begins to talk about attaining
"freedom", a "sky of infinite possibilities", and the events inside that dimension alludes too much at the OGs final moments and battles, almost like the team overcome "that".

fucking lol I definitely WONT support this project if it goes in this direction, or any game from Nomura / Nojima again.

you cant simply do this shit with a project people waited for years and years, just to get another thing.

 

[Makoeyes987]

watched the last segments and it does seem this is leaning towards a retelling, too many signs.

before entering the dark sperms portal, Aerith begins to talk about attaining
"freedom", a "sky of infinite possibilities", and the events inside that dimension alludes too much at the OGs final moments and battles, almost like the team overcome "that".

fucking lol I definitely wont support this project if it goes in this direction.

You're watching events that have no corollary to anything in the OG, that reference the unique plot thread that's exclusive to the Remake. It heavily calls back to a final battle because it is a final battle for this game. It's meant to stand as Part 1's final battle that will inevitably lead to the ultimate final battle which encompasses the conclusion of FFVII. That's a long ways away right now. Drawing anything about a re-telling or whatever from what's obviously a unique, non-Midgar event of FFVII-R is trying to extract meaning in reference to the OG that doesn't exist. This whole fight is unique to this game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

watched the last segments and it does seem this is leaning towards a retelling, too many signs.

before entering the dark sperms portal, Aerith begins to talk about attaining
"freedom", a "sky of infinite possibilities", and the events inside that dimension alludes too much at the OGs final moments and battles, almost like the team overcome "that".

Yeah, the meta is strong with this one.

fucking lol I definitely WONT support this project if it goes in this direction, or any game from Nomura / Nojima again.

Damn, that's a tad harsh.

 

[Wol]

harsh is what they're doing lol, hopefully they wont go deep with this mess but the signs are all there and their track record doesnt give me any confidence story-wise.

 

[oty]

Oh god I hope it's not just a cheap element to ramp up an ending. I mean, I'm all for Kojima levels of crazy meta readings, "Raiden turn your game console off", and all that. But just making it a spectacle? A way out? Thats like...KH3 ending. Every character comes back just so we can have this "bomb ass" ending of all heroes vs villain, except nothing makes sense and its just...cheap.

I also dont think they are doing something "harsh". The original team wouldn't have done it in another way. I mean, thats just the way it is. Some creators can recreate their works, others just dont want that. What kind of half ass product we would have received if they just gutted their own thoughts and feelings? No. Absolutely not. No creator should be stuck because of his work. They arent doing this out of evil intent to be presented as "villains". And there are plenty of good elements in this game, storywise,gameplay wise, music wise. It's not a tragedy at all.

 

[Wol]

i can already see, the Edge of creation being the point of origin of all FF universes, a Marvel-styled crossover is possible. Sephiroth wants to go there to dominate all possible worlds.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh god I hope it's not just a cheap element to ramp up an ending. I mean, I'm all for Kojima levels of crazy meta readings, "Raiden turn your game console off", and all that. But just making it a spectacle? A way out? Thats like...KH3 ending. Every character comes back just so we can have this "bomb ass" ending of all heroes vs villain, except nothing makes sense and its just...cheap.

Wait, who's being brought back here? Please don't say Zack...

And what relevance to Kingdom Hearts 3 does this even share?

The ending here is an ending to this project's first arc. The writer's gave this game it's own unique, overarching meta-esque plot line that serves to punctuate the Remake as a stand-alone game, all while not concluding or ending the actual true plot of FFVII that is to play out over the next games.

I also dont think they are doing something "harsh". The original team wouldn't have done it in another way. I mean, thats just the way it is. Some creators can recreate their works, others just dont want that. What kind of half ass product we would have received if they just gutted their own thoughts and feelings? No. Absolutely not. No creator should be stuck because of his work. They arent doing this out of evil intent to be presented as "villains". And there are plenty of good elements in this game, storywise,gameplay wise, music wise. It's not a tragedy at all.

Pretty much, this. I think overall, the writers went in balls deep trying to expand this portion of FFVII, stay true to the events within it, and simultaneously give the Remake a plot that justifies it as a standalone game that gives the player a unique way of actually staying within the narrative boundaries of the OG. It was a creative, albeit wild way of doing it.

 

[Eerie]

This interview is interesting, it was posted in the LTD thread but I think it has a very interesting part which should definitely reassure everyone?

The trick, he realized, was to lean into the original material as much as possible. "What I have personally come to realize, through trial and error, was not to create a completely new work merely borrowing the setting of the original [Final Fantasy 7], but to revive elements that are beloved by the fans," Hamaguchi says. "And without changing them, expand how they are depicted, utilizing the advancement of technology and game design over the last 20 years. In order to be accepted by the players of [Final Fantasy 7 Remake], we thought to retain the elements that people love and just change the presentation in a way that modern gamers would enjoy."

In other words, Final Fantasy 7 Remake stands to be very faithful to the original game, if not exactly slavishly devoted to its source material. Still, there are differences, which I pointed out when I played the demo about a month ago. Some of those differences are quite large.

Nevertheless, even the biggest differences are rooted in the original game in the same way, Hamaguchi says. "Every concept in the game has been expanded from elements of the original title in some way, and I believe that we were able to produce a game that will leave a lasting mark in regard to remakes in the entertainment industry."

So basically, I don't think we have to worry so much about the next installments. As many stated, this happens at the end of the game, and leaves the player overthinking - to me it's much more about leaving a cliffhanger, something for the fans to want to know more about, than to scare them away

 

[Wol]

Im all for it if its like you're saying, for now we can only hope and wait for clarifying interviews.

 

[oty]

I was talking about the structure of both endings. I dont expect anyone to come back to life in FFVIIR or next parts. But the way things happen, if the Arbiters are not really that important, resembles so much KH3. It:s a bunch of quick-thrown, non cohesive elements that are, simply put, cheap. They are only there to ramp up the spectacle, to make a big show. Now, the ending of FFVIIR already has its problems: its rushed and throws a lot of things to us. But to devolve even more of what happened as just a quick method to make final bits "epic", then in the long term, yeah, maybe they made a better call. Right now? It's poor. Just like KH3's ending was poor (only got slightly better with the Remind DLC).