SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Wol]

I think I might be more on board for the ride if they did something at the end that would probably cause positive discussion. This is a change that--at the end of part 1 anyway--I imagine most people will dislike, if not outright hate. So the already long wait for part 2 is no longer full of eager anticipation, it's more anxiety over what else is going to be different or how SE will screw it up. Is this even a remake anymore? Is Zack alive? Will Aerith live? None of those are conversations I think will be amicable or interesting.

I think even if watching the full ending makes more sense or is different from current impressions, what we've seen is enough to cause a lot of negativity towards the whole project. Hell, SE catches flack for basically existing. Trying to do something this daring might just cause negative attitudes to spread.

This, they always end up causing uncertainty with their projects.

Remake was doing everything well, of course Nomura would go crazy at some point, and add KH madness for the benefit of no one.

They did the same with FFXIII and almost pulled the same shit with FFXV.

 

[oty]

I think it causes such negative discussion because of the nature of the project. I talked with a lot of people who were complaining, and almost all of them had the same feeling: they felt misled. They felt tricked. They dont like the ending not because of the content, but because of the massive deviation from the original storyline, that, in a Remake, feels unnecessary to them. "This wasnt meant to be like this". A lot of them resorted in name calling Square, and that just proves their feeling of "being robbed".

I understand the developers not wanting to somehow "spoil" or undermine what is probably the biggest surprise of the entire game, but again....if they were a bit more upfront, these people wouldnt be complaining. Most of them of course.

 

[Arianna]

Stamp = Zack.

Zack was always called puppy by Angeal.

As they say, 'calling it'!

 

[oty]

This, they always end up causing uncertainty with their projects.

Remake was doing everything well, of course Nomira would go crazy at some point, and add KH madness for the benefit of no one.

Nojima, hello? If this was somehow a Nomura input, which I understand it seems likely but we dont know for sure, Nojima, the main writer of the game, must have liked it and implemented and expanded it in his script. Nomura shouldnt be taking all the blame at all. Games are a team effort. Everybody takes part of the blame. Specially the one designed to make the plot of it.

 

[Kratos]

On the one hand, I feel ya Eerie. I, personally, find it fascinating. I'm certainly interested in seeing where it all goes, if a little bit morbidly. And I still can't wait to soak in the bulk of this game - in fact, knowing all this almost makes it more comforting.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely disappointed. FFVII is a game that benefits from a proper remake more than most. It's a game whose characters and themes are relevant and strong but are wrapped in a dated package, and translating that to a presentation that resonates more with modern gamers would have been a fantastic chance to bring those things into the 21st century. And what's worse is that by all accounts the bulk of the game is exactly what people wanted. Like...cut out the Whispers, cut out the future visions, and you have something that would have been different like they wanted but still fun and exciting to play with lots of new stuff for us oldies.

It doesn't need all this stuff, and the inclusion of it is the height of self-indulgence. And I mean, it is their project and their art, but they can't claim it's for fans both old and new when they do things like this that really benefits no-one but their ego - not even Square itself. Because Cannon-fodder is right - the coming debates and discussion will not be positive ones. Remember what happened the last time a beloved RPG series had a divisive ending? Mass Effect 3 is still a punchline in some circles (unfairly, but that's neither here nor there), and that was just a disliked conclusion. This is a change, and fandom doesn't do well with change.

My point, I guess, is that like or dislike this, a shitstorm's a-comin', and it was entirely avoidable.

 

[Wol]

Nojima, hello? If this was somehow a Nomura input, which I understand it seems likely but we dont know for sure, Nojima, the main writer of the game, must have liked it and implemented and expanded it in his script. Nomura shouldnt be taking all the blame at all. Games are a team effort. Everybody takes part of the blame. Specially the one designed to make the plot of it.

I know Nojima is insane, but Nomura, as director, has more responsability.

Its no coincidence that his games are convoluted, full of ghosts, allucinations, time-travel, alternate timelines... ts mostly his fault, I think.

 

[oty]

On the one hand, I feel ya Eerie. I, personally, find it fascinating. I'm certainly interested in seeing where it all goes, if a little bit morbidly. And I still can't wait to soak in the bulk of this game - in fact, knowing all this almost makes it more comforting.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely disappointed. FFVII is a game that benefits from a proper remake more than most. It's a game whose characters and themes are relevant and strong but are wrapped in a dated package, and translating that to a presentation that resonates more with modern gamers would have been a fantastic chance to bring those things into the 21st century. And what's worse is that by all accounts the bulk of the game is exactly what people wanted. Like...cut out the Whispers, cut out the future visions, and you have something that would have been different like they wanted but still fun and exciting to play with lots of new stuff for us oldies.

It doesn't need all this stuff, and the inclusion of it is the height of self-indulgence. And I mean, it is their project and their art, but they can't claim it's for fans both old and new when they do things like this that really benefits no-one but their ego - not even Square itself. Because Cannon-fodder is right - the coming debates and discussion will not be positive ones. Remember what happened the last time a beloved RPG series had a divisive ending? Mass Effect 3 is still a punchline in some circles (unfairly, but that's neither here nor there), and that was just a disliked conclusion. This is a change, and fandom doesn't do well with change.

My point, I guess, is that like or dislike this, a shitstorm's a-comin', and it was entirely avoidable.

I dont think the problem was even releasing a game like this. It's their choice to whatever they want, and I am always 100% behind giving creators the freedom to just do that. They shouldnt be held in chains of fan requests and desires.

The problem was just.....the wording I believe. Okay, even if this situation doesnt prevent us from experience most of the rest of FFVII diferently....things still changed. You still changed some values of the OG. I wouldnt say its stroking their ego, its their choice. But to use the ungodly level of excitement for a Remake to do this....

They could have just said it differently. It happened to us a lot of times. They announced prequels, sequels. Movies. We all wanted a Remake too. It wouldnt have been a new experience if they announced "a FFVII related story is coming", and most people would be glad they were getting new FFVII content. All of this could have been so much avoided.

 

[Suzaku]

Nojima is the common factor in SE plot gobbledygook far more than Nomura. Nomura has only directed a couple projects outside of KH, and everything he directs is written by Nojima.

I think we'll need to wait until the second part of the project to see what kind of an impact this actually has on the story -- whether it's a dramatic reworking of the plot tantamount to making this more of a sequel than a remake, or if it's just added flavor to ramp up the intensity of this game's finale.

Given the nature of this project and the general messaging that it will still hit all the major plot points from the original, I don't know that this will be as big of a deal in the long run as implied.

And let's be honest, the original story is still there. You could totally cut out the new material we've gotten so far and it'd be a 1:1 remake, for the most part. Honestly, if the response is that bad, they could easily put out a "Classic Version" that just cuts new material, I think. Or an inevitable PC mod can probably do the same.


Personally I'm excited to see what they're doing with it because I don't need the exact same story told twice. I get the disappointment if they're fundamentally changing things, but changes are way more interesting to me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think it just shouldnt have been called Remake.

Honest to Bugenhagen, if the title was more appropriate? 90% of the complaints would be gone. Its not even a matter of "Square technically said...".It would have just made everything much easier.

I believe -- as with so many Nomura-led games' titles -- "remake" has a double meaning here. It appears it's just being used as a noun at first glance, but it is also a verb.

Nojima, hello? If this was somehow a Nomura input, which I understand it seems likely but we dont know for sure, Nojima, the main writer of the game, must have liked it and implemented and expanded it in his script. Nomura shouldnt be taking all the blame at all. Games are a team effort. Everybody takes part of the blame. Specially the one designed to make the plot of it.

It is definitely a team effort, but I recall Nomura (as director) overruling Nojima on at least one occasion with KH -- so presumably he will take the majority of final credit, whether good or bad.

On the one hand, I feel ya Eerie. I, personally, find it fascinating. I'm certainly interested in seeing where it all goes, if a little bit morbidly. And I still can't wait to soak in the bulk of this game - in fact, knowing all this almost makes it more comforting.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely disappointed.

I get where both of these feelings come from, but I think I'm mostly in the "almost makes it more comforting" side of it. It's a separate experience, but it's also a separate narrative altogether. Nomura made that clear in an interview recently, and I really think he prepared us as best he could without giving the whole thing away.

Of course, I had been expecting precisely this development ever since we learned about these "Guardians of Destiny," so I've been ready for this for a while -- so maybe it's easier for me.

 

[Theozilla]

I've already stated my opinion/interpretation repeatedly that I am in the camp of thinking (based on the context/information available) that this is largely, as Suzaku eloquently put it "just added flavor to ramp up the intensity of this game's finale" for the first installment.

Also, even though I don't think there will be time travel in the conventional sense (like I am confident Zack is still dead), I think it should be noted that time travel has been an important element in the Final Fantasy series since literally the very first numbered title, so it's not like this is exclusive to Nomura/Nojima or unprecedented in the FF series.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also, even though I don't think there will be time travel in the conventional sense ...

Even while we await the full and final context of it, we've already definitely seen that this whole Whispers-dome-explosion-into-gold-snow-sparkles thing happened across time, sooooo ?‍

 

[Theozilla]

Even while we await the full and final context of it, we've already definitely seen that this whole Whispers-dome-explosion-into-gold-snow-sparkles thing happened across time, sooooo ?‍

The key word here for me is "conventional" time travel (like Back to the Future-esque time travel), I already have given my thoughts earlier how I believe the Whispers' times-wimey stuff likely works/will work: https://thelifestream.net/forums/th...8-spoiler-discussion.22424/page-3#post-845852

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think the timing of the major new stuff in the plot is... not helping. It was left until the very end of the game where nothing is going to come after it for years. If it had been more in the middle of the game and the rest of the game had stuck to the OG story afterwards in spite of the changes, it feels like there would be less "WTF is going on with this Remake!?!?" in the fandom. Ending with the major new stuff puts all the focus on how it wasn't anywhere in the OG instead of how like the OG the Remake is.

I will say that the discussion about the Remake by people who have finished it (or watched the ending) feels... off. The entire time the Remake was being advertised, everyone was waiting for SE to majorly drop the ball somewhere in the promotional material. But that never ended up happening. Not until the game ended. And then the ball dropped hard. It almost feels like the fandom was waiting for SE to fail at something, just because they're SE and can't resist messing with things they should leave alone. It's like watching a car race waiting for an accident to happen, only the accident didn't happen until right as the car almost finished the the first lap, long after people expected it too. Only... the race still has two laps to go, so that's plenty of time for both more accidents to happen or for the car to get its act together. Both of which will be entertaining to watch if nothing else.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think people are ignorantly freaking out over a plot element they haven't fully uncovered or interpreted with the entirety of the context or information available in-game (through its lead up to the conclusion).

And acting entitled to a story adhering to one's own personal, subjective vision of it's scope or scale is ridiculously immature and personalized. Pre-order canceled? False advertisement? Really? Can we actually please be adults and not act as if Nomura burned down people's houses?

The individuals who have played and fully interpreted the game said it was an awesome experience and the game's original overarching story remaining in tact. Why? Because the entire nature of the story does play out with that very purpose in mind. You as the player protect it.

What people are doing is misinterpreting the Zack element and the scenes of the ending without any understanding of what there is going on.

So I'm going to share the preliminary info from someone who did beat it, however I am avoiding the details so my own experience isn't ruined. Believe it or not. But at the very least stop with the "ZACK LIVES!" or saying it isn't a Remake.

The tl;dr is that the Arbiters of Fate are moving through time to create a future that inevitably results in calamity for the planet. Sephiroth is utilizing this force (with seemingly some awareness of things beyond) and apparently making it to where the Whispers attempt to prevent Zack from reaching Midgar, dying on the way, and Cloud being able to be who he properly is within FFVII. How this happens is unknown but it's explained through the final chapter of the game.

In the end, the singularity point is destroyed and the Whispers along with it. Allowing Zack's fate to remain unchanged. We as the player don't see it. However Aerith witnesses Zack's inevitable conclusion. The heroes depart to find Sephiroth since he's still out there with another strategy (the Black Materia) to make himself a God.

No. There isn't an alternate timeline where Zack lives. Yes the Whispers come from a future timeline. What it is, is debatable. But the actual core plot of VII is the same. And apparently there is more to uncover upon completion of the game via Hard Mode. There's research files to be found on the matter.

So can we please stop the noise about somehow S-E lying about this being a Remake? It is. It was never going to be 1:1 with the OG. They added new stuff to this adaption however the same story beats of FFVII remain and will. There will be changes to mix it up, and I believe that they did this to add uncertainty to make those gullible enough to believe Aerith might live get emotionally invested again once she dies.

So please. The hyperbole is really unnecessary. The game is still a Remake that adapted the events of FFVII. The writers added new elements that gave this game it's own unique stakes while pushing the boundaries of expectation. But we still got the storyline of VII. For the details, actually dive into and see the plot once it's unfolded and clearly out there. That is my own intention. Simplu assuming the worst without full understanding of the narrative is just a waste of time.

If you don't like the element. Fine, that's cool. Understandable. But don't say that it wasn't a Remake or it somehow was a lie. The game didn't lie or somehow make itself something it was not.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I get what you are saying Mako, but it would help your argument if the major new plot points added were not the cheesiest thing ever. And didn't come completely out of nowhere. And wasn't a sub-plot Nomura has a bad track record of implementing. It would also help if it felt like it added something to the overall plot of FFVII.

Currently, it feels a lot like a Disk 1 Final Boss added just for the sake of change and confusing people

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Is it still a remake if it adapts the events of FFVII but doesn't recreate the atmosphere or world or tone? I'd argue no. For a lot of people, what made FFVII FFVII was being grounded in a more modern setting with more relatable forces at work. Sure, that builds to something crazy in the OG, but the build is what made it work.

If the whispers are destroyed and don't impact the story in the future, then its just a stumble for part 1. But if the whispers stick around and the events of the OG don't change, it still won't have the same feel if the main characters are fighting fate rather than fighting an evil conglomerate and chasing down a psychopath. I agree with you that a lot of the hate is overblown, but acting like people don't have a reason to be upset isn't fair either.

 

[Theozilla]

Is it still a remake if it adapts the events of FFVII but doesn't recreate the atmosphere or world or tone? I'd argue no. For a lot of people, what made FFVII FFVII was being grounded in a more modern setting with more relatable forces at work. Sure, that builds to something crazy in the OG, but the build is what made it work.

I mean, regardless of the quality of the additions/changes, by that logic the 1970s and 2005 King Kong movies aren't remakes. Exact recreation of the atmosphere/tone is rarely requirement for something to qualify as a remake. But I admit that's just a parsing of definitions/schematics.

 

[Makoeyes987]

"Out of nowhere" depends on how these extra new stakes are defined and inserted into the narrative. That's what I wish to experience myself along with fully interpreting its lead up. Yes, it's a huge and sudden addition that one would not expect. However, the fact remains that the core fundamentals of FFVII thus far, remain unchanged. That's literally what this is all about.

This was the game's way of carrying its own unique stakes that resolve within the scope of this game and not simply end on a cliffhanger. I think it's only confusing because people are sharing initial, snap judgments without fully understanding. Which it does ultimately require. I personally don't mind time travel when properly implemented but it does require a finesse and clarity to ultimately land properly. I'll wait til it unfolds.

Is it still a remake if it adapts the events of FFVII but doesn't recreate the atmosphere or world or tone? I'd argue no. For a lot of people, what made FFVII FFVII was being grounded in a more modern setting with more relatable forces at work. Sure, that builds to something crazy in the OG, but the build is what made it work.

That is a philosophical and granular question. However when everything else up until the game's unique plot conclusion lines up and fits the bill, I see no reason to pose a question about consumer deception or malevolent intent from Square or its writers. Just because something doesn't adhere to your aesthetics or desires doesn't mean you were lied to. And constantly comparing it to another well regarded and enjoyed franchise as if it's somehow lesser only sounds bizarrely elitist. Not saying you did it, but speaking in general.

If the whispers are destroyed and don't impact the story in the future, then its just a stumble for part 1. But if the whispers stick around and the events of the OG don't change, it still won't have the same feel if the main characters are fighting fate rather than fighting an evil conglomerate and chasing down a psychopath. I agree with you that a lot of the hate is overblown, but acting like people don't have a reason to be upset isn't fair either.

Unknown. But again. I don't see this fundamentally changing what we understood about the project. Yes. Things may change. Yes. It will still be FFVII. This fear and rigid interpretation of how FFVII must or must not be is simply not going to be within the writer's heads. Expecting them to align to one single vision is not realistic. I can't tell anyone what to do but thinking they have to do one thing a certain way to be "true" to FFVII is a great way to be disappointed and stuck in the past.

This Remake has captured the most important unique aspects of each of its unique Midgar aligned events while simultaneously reinterpreting them. They've stayed true to literally all of the important parts, even those that some thought would be ruined. However people are gonna freak out because the writer's dared color outside the lines and give a unique take on their added element, which ultimately doesn't change anything of the core VII story? Come on.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

In the end, the singularity point is destroyed and the Whispers along with it. Allowing Zack's fate to remain unchanged. We as the player don't see it. However Aerith witnesses Zack's inevitable conclusion. The heroes depart to find Sephiroth since he's still out there with another strategy (the Black Materia) to make himself a God.

Are you merely speculating that Aerith saw the entirety of Zack's Last Stand? I don't believe the vision that was shown on the bridge, or even the very ending scene before the credits implies she saw him actually die yet (I actually don't believe she necessarily saw the latter, either, as opposed to being cinematic impact for the ending). It's reasonable to suggest it as a possibility, sure, but it's not clear in implementation of this with what is shown. The 2nd game will definitely be the deciding factor for what exactly she knows and suspects, but if even for the plot moving forward, her seeing that critical information so early on is a bit of a critique for me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Are you merely speculating that Aerith saw the entirety of Zack's Last Stand? I don't believe the vision that was shown on the bridge, or even the very ending scene before the credits implies she saw him actually die yet (I actually don't believe she necessarily saw the latter, either, as opposed to being cinematic impact for the ending). It's reasonable to suggest it as a possibility, sure, but it's not clear in implementation of this with what is shown. The 2nd game will definitely be the deciding factor for what exactly she knows and suspects, but if even for the plot moving forward, her seeing that critical information so early on is a bit of a critique for me.

If you look at the camera work, her facial expression and the resulting hesitation she does as they all move on, it ultimately speaks for itself. But again. None of this implies Zack is alive. It makes no sense to leap to that conclusion off of the Remake's reinterpretation of the scene and overall plot. Zack is not alive. The past was prevented from being changed here.

And her knowing that info early falls in line with the unique changes the Remake has done to establish itself as its own unique adaption that fits within the frame work of its release type. It's not gonna always line up with how the OG did things. We all knew this going into it.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

"Out of nowhere" depends on how these extra new stakes are defined and inserted into the narrative. That's what I wish to experience myself along with fully interpreting its lead up. Yes, it's a huge and sudden addition that one would not expect. However, the fact remains that the core fundamentals of FFVII thus far, remain unchanged. That's literally what this is all about.

This I disagree with. We went from a world where "fate" as a force does not exist to one where it is. We've gone from world where the future could not be know to one where it can. And even more importantly, a world where the knowledge of the future can be used to change the present. If that's not a fundamental change to how the world of FFVII works, I don't know what is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

"Fate" ultimately doesn't exist as a force. What is called "fate" are beings that are making a concerted effort to change the course of the planet via temporal manipulation to one that ultimately leads to destruction. Beings Sephiroth has somehow extracted knowledge from and is attempting to manipulate to his own ends. The characters are unaware of just what that future is; they merely were confronted with an unknown force that wished to antagonize their world in a way that only us as the viewer fully understood. And they succeeded. They weren't manipulated or made to somehow change or be molded by what these things did.

How this element works within the world of VII is unknown but spirit energy as a magical force that defies the laws of physics, including space and time, is not unheard of. Not in other Final Fantasies that carry the concept, at least.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

If you look at the camera work, her facial expression and the resulting hesitation she does as they all move on, it ultimately speaks for itself.

As in the ending part? Not necessarily—that's very easily the result of also seeing someone you haven't (and was also in the anticipation of seeing) seen in 5 years, not to mention in a daring situation that you don't know the conclusion of. I would as well, in which the significance of her last line, that it's also her knowing that moving forward will result in learning more. Not necessarily a reaction of seeing a death of a loved one, but more so in her situation, knowing she's on a "changing" route where she'll experience more going forward. It's not about lining up with the OG (which isn't my side, at all), but rather in how it interacts with it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

As in the ending part? Not necessarily—that's very easily the result of also seeing someone you haven't (and was also in the anticipation of seeing) seen in 5 years, not to mention in a daring situation that you don't know the conclusion of. I would as well, in which the significance of her last line, that it's also her knowing that moving forward will result in learning more. Not necessarily a reaction of seeing a death of a loved one, but more so in her situation, knowing she's on a "changing" route where she'll experience more going forward. It's not about lining up with the OG (which isn't my side, at all), but rather in how it interacts with it.

Well, you're welcome to interpret the scene that way.

What I mean by "lining up with the OG" is that Zack is ambushed and killed while he makes his way to Midgar carrying Cloud, with Cloud's arm around his shoulders as he carries him. Just because Zack survives his last stand (the depiction introduced in CC) doesn't mean or even imply he lives. He goes on to carry Cloud on his shoulders and walk to Midgar.. Which is the very same way he meets his end as shown in FFVII.

 

[Theozilla]

Well, you're welcome to interpret the scene that way.

What I mean by "lining up with the OG" is that Zack is ambushed and killed while he makes his way to Midgar carrying Cloud, with Cloud's arm around his shoulders as he carries him. Just because Zack survives his last stand (the depiction introduced in CC) doesn't mean or even imply he lives. He goes on to carry Cloud on his shoulders and walk to Midgar.. Which is the very same way he meets his end as shown in FFVII.

Makoeyes987 I think MelodicEnigma is talking about a different thing. Specifically, how the final flashback that's right before the start of the credits (that Aerith presumably witnesses) cuts off right before Zack dies/gets shot in the back. I don't think MelodicEngima is saying they think that indicates Zack is still alive, but rather that Aerith within the story hasn't fully "seen" Zack's death yet, and that she as a character still can be plausibly in denial about his demise.