SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

As I and others have said, it’s likely that the CC and OG depictions of Zack’s are being combined ...

Not for nothing, I do keep pointing out that Zack has been gunned down before the rain starts to fall in both the original and CC's depictions, but is seen here carrying Cloud in the rain.

He could still die soon thereafter, of course, but we're still looking at some kind of change, and I don't think "the CC and OG depictions are being combined" satisfactorily explains it.

 

[Tetsujin]

If nothing about Zack changed then you'd have to wonder what the point of inserting his last stand into this part of the game was for and why they'd make a point to show the Arbiters 'splodin across time and be visible for him at that point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, that's how I meant it. I said Crystal World might be what Seph referred to as this "edge of creation."



Just wanted to verify this since Mako has been insistent that it isn't meant to be the same dog, just an assistant to Stamp or something like that. I wasn't certain myself, so I hadn't doubted him about it up until now.

I looked at the dinner scene in Chapter 4, and well ...

The writing on both bags indicates they're the "Original" flavor. We can also see in that screengrab from Chapter 4 that different flavors apparently still use the same dog (not assistants to Stamp), but in a different pose.

So that settles this then, I think. Stamp really does have a different design in Zack's part of the ending.

Now, doesn't that make everything so much clearer?

Look at their hats in your 2 pics.

Stamp has 5 stars. Like a 5 star general.



The one on the bag in Zack's flashback is a 4 star ranked general or field marshall. They hold two different ranks with "Stamp" being the most senior. And Stamp is said to stick up for his friends. As the art shows, other dog characters exist in their cartoon story. And "Champs" is plural. So I wouldn't be surprised if Champ and other doggies showed up on the covers.

I really don't think they're meant to be the same/parallels if the two aren't similar in everything but breed. The rank is sorta important

 

[AerithLives]

Very mixed feelings about the ending.

If by mixed you mean angry and pissed off, then yes, I agree. ?

 

[Theozilla]

Not for nothing, I do keep pointing out that Zack has been gunned down before the rain starts to fall in both the original and CC's depictions, but is seen here carrying Cloud in the rain.

He could still die soon thereafter, of course, but we're still looking at some kind of change, and I don't think "the CC and OG depictions are being combined" satisfactorily explains it.

Eh, I don’t think slightly different timing in regards to the rain falling is evidence against the idea of the two depictions being combined, especially when the rain is literally just starting in the last Zack flashback in the Remake. And said flashback ends right before Zack is likely fatally shot. It’s like a difference of a couple of minutes in regards to the rain

If nothing about Zack changed then you'd have to wonder what the point of inserting his last stand into this part of the game was for and why they'd make a point to show the Arbiters 'splodin across time and be visible for him at that point.

I think the purpose is to show that the singularity the Whisper’s created spans across time. And that things almost got changed but ultimately didn’t.

 

[Odysseus]

Fact of the matter is that we're really not going to know what happened for sure until the sequel, and that could be anywhere from 2 to 4 years away. For the time being, any explanation is plausible. There are a dozen explanations for the dog on the chip bag; maybe its one of Stamp's friends, maybe its an older iteration of the design, maybe its an alternate universe version. The fact is that they shove it very prominently right in the camera so the player has to notice. Why did they choose to include that? That's the real question.

 

[oty]

If nothing about Zack changed then you'd have to wonder what the point of inserting his last stand into this part of the game was for and why they'd make a point to show the Arbiters 'splodin across time and be visible for him at that point.

Symbolical I believe. I mean, you can say the same thing about Cloud's earlier visions given that they dont actively change anything for the story, but for the player....thats where it gets interesting. Thats the whole thing about having "meta" stuff in a game, since, a lot of times, for the characters its completely ludicrous, but for the players it can have a huge impact. And I mean, "ludicrous but impactful" is a pretty good point of view for this ending all things considered

 

[Lex]

I think I agree most with Aoife from Eurogamer's coverage, which agrees with Tres. The game makes a point of showing you Stamp as he is throughout the game, on everything. Then a crisp packet sticks in frame at the end during a Zack scene, with a different dog. This is way more likely to indicate some sort of AU or timeline change than "oh it's just different branding".

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why did they choose to include that? That's the real question.

Don't forget that Zack's nickname in Crisis Core is "Zack the puppy."

Other puppies/dogs are shown to exist with Stamp carrying one on his back. I don't really see why a goods named "Stamps Champs" would preclude only Stamp himself being on the bag.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think the purpose is to show that the singularity the Whisper’s created spans across time. And that things almost got changed but ultimately didn’t.

"Nothing changed" was not the main topic of that entire ending sequence though...

 

[Odysseus]

Don't forget that Zack's nickname in Crisis Core is "Zack the puppy."

Other puppies/dogs are shown to exist with Stamp carrying one on his back. I don't really see why a goods named "Stamps Champs" would preclude only Stamp himself being on the bag.

This is going to sound really stupid, but I feel like you're using too much logic in trying to explain this. It just being one of stamps "champs" makes perfect sense, but then why would they draw so much attention to it? Why would they linger on it for so long? It can't just be because Zack is Cloud's friend so its relevant that way, can it?

 

[Theozilla]

"Nothing changed" was not the main topic of that entire ending sequence though...

The majority of the ending sequence takes place during the present day though, in relation to the Remake it’s just showing the aftermath of slum citizens recovering. The ending sequence isn’t about time having changed, at least it’s not how I have interpreted it.
But as @Odysseus says neither of us will know for sure until the later future, either from the future games themselves or the developers clarifying it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In time travel/alternate universe stories, when you perform the trope "For Want of a Nail" or "In Spite of a Nail", you showcase a difference that exhibits the significant change, or make the equivalency without a doubt.

Another dog existing on a chip bag that's a completely different rank than the titular animal mascot is not that equivalency of all factors being the same. It'd be like someone, not knowing Sega, equating Sonic and Silver as the same but from differing universes.

Nomura and Nojima aren't above using visual symbolism in core scenes look at the cutscenes and ending of Crisis Core itself. I don't really see a chip bag of a differing animal as proof positive of an AU.

And the way Cloud, Aerith and Zack walk past each other is visual symbolism of the two going their separate ways in opposite directions. They don't symbolize a cross or re-meeting. It exemplifies the parting of ways. I don't see how that indicates an AU either.

 

[SpacemanZero]

This is going to sound really stupid, but I feel like you're using too much logic in trying to explain this. It just being one of stamps "champs" makes perfect sense, but then why would they draw so much attention to it? Why would they linger on it for so long? It can't just be because Zack is Cloud's friend so its relevant that way, can it?

Yeah, and honestly it's a way scarier theory if you go with that Zack was not shown in an alternate timeline. Because I'd like to remind of the golden dust rain also, which covers all the scenes where Biggs lives, Jessie and Wedge is hinted to live too etc. So basically all those things that the Whispers prevented. Because the alternative is that the past is now changed too and all that stupid shit really happened.

I think someone also pointed out in Reddit, that the 7th Heaven sign in the ending is different than the one from the game before that and it's broken differently. I haven't checked that out yet myself.

 

[Razuun]

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the Zack scene would be a mystery to new players, who would look at it and wonder who this strange SOLDIER is that Aerith seems to know, and who has the Buster Sword.

The 'purpose' of showing that scene could be just that. To show a mystery. To give a little nod for fans of the series. And to set up the Zack mythology within the context of the Remake and its new players.

It's easy for us to assume that a scene with Zack = AU timeline confirmed. But that'd mean nothing to new players. The scene is a mystery. A hook. Who is this mysterious SOLDIER who was friends with Cloud? Why does he have Cloud's sword? Why did Aerith recognise him...? Etc.

I firmly do not believe Zack lives.

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah, and honestly it's a way scarier theory if you go with that Zack was not shown in an alternate timeline. Because I'd like to remind of the golden dust rain also, which covers all the scenes where Biggs lives, Jessie and Wedge is hinted to live too etc. So basically all those things that the Whispers prevented. Because the alternative is that the past is now changed too and all that stupid shit really happened.

I think someone also pointed out in Reddit, that the 7th Heaven sign in the ending is different than the one from the game before that and it's broken differently. I haven't checked that out yet myself.

The Biggs, Wedge, Jessie thing also really gets me. Why would they frame it in such a teasing way if they're only alive in this irrelevant splinter timeline? The way its shown, Biggs not being dead is supposed to be a surprise, he's clearly still injured from the battle. Why play it so coy with Jessie's glove? If they're all alive in this irrelevant side timeline, why not just show it? The only way that particular framing makes sense to me is if its supposed to be the main reality. I don't see why they would treat it like a mystery otherwise. That's why the Zack scene bothers me too, because the way it makes the most sense is if its an alternate reality. Why have him say "wait, was that all of them?" if not to highlight him surviving something he shouldn't have?

Agh, I hate you square!

 

[SpacemanZero]

And the golden dust rain is also on the scene with Zack. And then on the scene where Biggs lives etc.

If it were just the dog I'd probably buy the symbolism and establishing Zack, but why put the golden rain on those scenes, if not to show that they're connected.

I'd really love to jump aboard the Zack is dead and there's no alternative timelines theory, even if it means that Biggs is alive etc.

But with all the visual clues and Zack saying "that's it"... I don't know.

 

[Theozilla]

The golden dust is in those various scenes because the Whisper dome singularity exploded across time. That doesn’t mean it created a new timeline.

 

[Odysseus]

The crux of the alternate timeline theory is the Zack stuff. None of the other scenes really point to that in my opinion. Everything else is just about the people of Midgar recovering after all the disaster. I think the gold fleck landing on Biggs was definitely supposed to represent that his fate had been changed, but I don't see why that has to mean he's literally in an alternate reality.

 

[Mister Materia]

I just noticed that the stamp in the Zack scene has four stars on his hat, while the stamp in the main game has five on his helmet. Perhaps "stamp" is a legacy title that's passed down between dogs, and current stamp is stamp the fifth. Like Oty was saying, this would represent the relationship between Cloud and Zack. What the fuck am I talking about?

If were doing the multiverse theory. This stamp could Aerith.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/g1bwsv

 

[Wol]

If alternate realities were a thing, whispers wouldnt need to protect the order of events, no? Unless their defeat made it possible for a fixed timeline to branch off, but then if the past was affected then ANY major past event of FFVIIs story could have created another reality, which would be stupid.

And SQ would have to spend time and resources to develop a secondary story/gameplay while OGs content is begging for attention.

It would be stupid in all fronts.

 

[Jairus]

Just finished the game and it was quite a ride. It seems to me that defeating the Whispers served to undo much of what they did in the remake's timeline, going by how Zack and Biggs are now alive. And I think there's a very good chance Jessie and Wedge are, too. That's definitely her glove on the dresser, it's got the metal backing on it and the red wraparound thing. And then there are the three pencils in the cup, a visual clue that all three members of the trio are alive now. I so hope that's true, I really enjoyed those guys, especially Jessie, of course.

And if Jessie does return for Part 2 - which I think there's a good chance of, given the presence of her glove there teasing that very thing - then that would be really great. Her popularity's shot up ever since the demo came out, and even more with the release of the full game. So I think it's a good possibility she'll be back. And teasing her survival rather than showing it outright is a brilliant way of keeping people invested in her and her possible return. If she does appear in Part 2, I think there's a fairly strong chance that she may be added as a new possible partner for the Gold Saucer date, if it's that installment, especially considering she used to work there as an actress in the very play that was part of the date in the OG timeline. That would add a whole new angle to those events, and maybe give her and Cloud the chance to share that pizza they were never able to have in Part 1. Considering her history at the Gold Saucer, it also makes me wonder if she ever knew Cait Sith - he knows a lot of people there, so it's possible. And through him, she could know Reeve as well.

Aerith said that if they won, they would be changed. Destinty would be changed. So whether it's an alternate timeline or the same one but with certain events changed due to the Whispers' interference being undone, the outcome is still the same, I think. Things are different, people whose original destiny was to die (like Zack and Biggs, and hopefully Jessie and Wedge) are now alive. So the FFVII story isn't going to go quite the way we remember, I don't think.

 

[SpacemanZero]

The first scene with Zack is also shown before the fight with Harbringer. You can then also see the Whispers interfering with that scene. Then after the battle they show Zack again, this time with the dog shot, golden rain and all that and Zack going "Wait, was that all of them".

To me all that together screams that Zack survived. But if he did survive and there's only one timeline... that would not make any sense unless they've completely rewritten what happens after that.

Would that be actually related to the beginning of the game where Cloud says to Tifa "It's been five years" and Tifa goes "Huh?".

I don't remember the timeline from the OG clearly but how much time has passed from since Zack carried Cloud close to Midgar? Has he basically just arrived recently? Where would Zack be now? So many questions and so many years till we answers, ugh.

And if everything that the Whispers changed got undone, shouldn't Barret have died at the end?

 

[Odysseus]

If everything that the wispers did got undone, sector 7 would still be standing.

 

[Jairus]

I said much of what they did, not all of it. Some things were changed, but not all of them. And the Whispers didn't prevent the collapse itself, only made sure that Jessie died and Wedge fell into the underground facility. Although I'm sure if she had lived and gone to the top with Cloud and Tifa, Jessie would've been able to disarm the plate separation system.