SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Theozilla]

According to the official timelines from the Ultimanias and Compilation games, Zack died at the end of September and the main OG plot begins at the beginning/middle of December (maybe in the FFVII world it’s Northern hemisphere summer occurs in their “winter” months?).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Would that be actually related to the beginning of the game where Cloud says to Tifa "It's been five years" and Tifa goes "Huh?".

No, it wouldn't. Because for Tifa, Cloud wasn't at Nibelheim 5 years ago. She didn't see him there. For Tifa, she hasn't seen Cloud in 7 years.

I don't remember the timeline from the OG clearly but how much time has passed from since Zack carried Cloud close to Midgar? Has he basically just arrived recently? Where would Zack be now? So many questions and so many years till we answers, ugh.

It's been 3 or so months since Cloud left Zack's dead body.

If we're to assume the conclusion that all the scenes in the ending with golden snow are indicative of a change or altered time stream, then they should all exhibit the changes of such a result. Yet they don't. That's an inconsistency that begs the question, a bit.

And if everything that the Whispers changed got undone, shouldn't Barret have died at the end?

That's another good point as well. If the Whispers being destroyed undoes their influences and what not, Barret should be a dead man.

 

[oty]

Oh boy Jairus.....you entered the middle of the "Zack isnt alive, or is he" discussion that is happening right now.

I think that Square, and japanese developers, rely a lot on symbolism. Often to the point of overusing them. We've seen at CC and AC that SE can sometimes bring the most blatant and clichés symbols at point blank. So the "Original Stamp" being just that, a nod to the original, is something that very much falls into SE's range. Even if Nomura is the director of this game, it doesnt mean that the symbolism of it needs to reach "KH levels", and that this timeline wumbo jumbo is brought from a "KH influence". Even if a lot of people fear that. In fact, bringing this KH level stuff would actually be the more improbable possibility, even if its still a possibility.

 

[pollenainne]

The first scene with Zack is also shown before the fight with Harbringer. You can then also see the Whispers interfering with that scene. Then after the battle they show Zack again, this time with the dog shot, golden rain and all that and Zack going "Wait, was that all of them".

Could that line also refer to the probability that "it wasn't all of them" after all, eh?

Basically there was no more so he thought he won. But he is gonna get gunned down after he walked through Aerith, I tell you. lol. Because indeed "It was not all of them". He was mistaken. That's why Aerith is all sad, there is no vision of hope there. It is a vision of the tragic event that would transpire.

 

[SpacemanZero]

Oh how I wish that the biggest questions we would be speculating about were "what is Scarlet's cup size?" and "where are they going to end part two?".

But no. Can't have that. All because of time dementors, different dog breeds on snacks and golden rain pouring on people that should be dead.

 

[Odysseus]

Is this what a community-wide panic attack looks like?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I personally am enjoying not debating the perceived diminished/same culpability held by Avalanche

Or Tifa's changed/unchanged bust size.

 

[pollenainne]

I said much of what they did, not all of it. Some things were changed, but not all of them. And the Whispers didn't prevent the collapse itself, only made sure that Jessie died and Wedge fell into the underground facility. Although I'm sure if she had lived and gone to the top with Cloud and Tifa, Jessie would've been able to disarm the plate separation system.

Actually it was the whispers who prevented Cloud and Barret from killing Rude who was going to activate the plate separation.

Is this what a community-wide panic attack looks like?

And here I thought this is what a fun discussion looks like?

 

[Jairus]

Actually it was the whispers who prevented Cloud and Barret from killing Rude who was going to activate the plate separation.

Oh, yeah. Forgot about that. Well, as I said, some of what they did has clearly been changed and undone.

 

[Odysseus]

And here I thought this is what a fun discussion looks like?

Who says it can't be both?

The Zack thing really doesn't make any sense to a new player anyway, does it? Square has said they want old and new fans to be able to enjoy this game, so having a twist like this that only long time fans would get would be kinda stupid. All this "alternate reality" talk would go way over a new fans head. Would square really risk alienating their audience like that?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The alternate timeline thing has 3 things that make it highly improbable for me.

If the gold-snow means it's all "changed," and an AU, then that should consistently apply across the board yet it clearly doesn't. Why is that the case?

If Zack's alive in an AU because of a chip bag, then again, why? What is the AU's purpose? Even if one assumes that is Zack Fair in an alternate universe making it out of his struggles alive, then what's the point? The main characters certainly aren't in that universe. If anything, the ending symbolizes their separation even more then. Because they're walking two different paths, in opposite directions and Aerith gives the appearance that she senses or realizes that they aren't to meet.

If the Whispers are needed to preserve the timeline for self-preservation/protecting the future, then why would the changes occurring result in a split? That's just a question that would naturally float to the top in any surface read/understanding of that interpretation.

I don't understand how there being an AU has anything to do with what comes next. Okay, Zack's alive in an AU thanks to what Cloud and the others did. Wonderful, what about it? Is he coming to the "prime" universe? If so? How?

 

[Misterbadguy]

Very much looking forward to the inevitable Ultimania interview where Nomura drops some cryptic hints that will serve only to drive the fanbase further up the wall. It's going to be a fun couple of years!

By the way, perhaps this has been discussed already, but there's some interesting dialogue related to Chadley when you clear his quest chain (spoilered as I believe it requires clearing the Hard Mode-exclusive postgame boss) :

Spoiler

Chadley reveals he is a cyborg built as an assistant to Hojo, but through his research on Cloud, he breaks his programming and gains truly free will, becoming able to leave Shinra. Cloud asks him what he'll do next and he replies with this:

"I'm not sure. It's all a big, wonderful mystery. It's nice not knowing something for a change."

 

[billy22]

Who says it can't be both?

The Zack thing really doesn't make any sense to a new player anyway, does it? Square has said they want old and new fans to be able to enjoy this game, so having a twist like this that only long time fans would get would be kinda stupid. All this "alternate reality" talk would go way over a new fans head. Would square really risk alienating their audience like that?

Putting in scenes that go over new players heads wasn't uncommon in this game. Such as flashes from the future which Red says is a bad future (new players will assume this scene differently than old players), the random Cait Sith appearance, a lot of Sephiroth despite not explaining much about him, etc.

 

[pollenainne]

Putting in scenes that go over new players heads wasn't uncommon in this game. Such as flashes from the future which Red says is a bad future (new players will assume this scene differently than old players), the random Cait Sith appearance, a lot of Sephiroth despite not explaining much about him, etc.

I disagree. It is normal for a completely new story to introduce elements of "seeing the future". Sure to old players it looks like the OG... to the new players, it is as Red says, a vision of the future if they fail.

The Cait Sith appearance, altho I also thought it was such a "wtf" placement to new players, it can also be preparation for the reveal that he was Reeve's puppet. It will connect to future storylines, does not have to be the "OG storyline". And Sephiroth has been shown in the OG too before knowing much about him...

The reason I say all these things is because I discussed it with my brother who is 14 years younger than me and has not touched FF7 anything. He only played this game. I was also the same mindset as you before...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Only two weeks until the Ultimania releases. x_x

In time travel/alternate universe stories, when you perform the trope "For Want of a Nail" or "In Spite of a Nail", you showcase a difference that exhibits the significant change, or make the equivalency without a doubt.

Another dog existing on a chip bag that's a completely different rank than the titular animal mascot is not that equivalency of all factors being the same. It'd be like someone, not knowing Sega, equating Sonic and Silver as the same but from differing universes.

There's equivalency in the flavor identified on the bags, as well as in this unfamiliar pup occupying a space previously -- and ubiquitously -- solely occupied by one other military canine.

If we're going to insist on those stars being of utmost importance, then I'll just have to also point out that these two sons of bitches (yay puns) have drastically different dog tags and therefore must not even be part of the same nation's military -- in which case, they're probably not friends, and the Zack dog almost certainly isn't one of Stamp's champs (speaking of puns).

For that matter, neither dog looks to be an age appropriate for such a high rank. =P

The majority of the ending sequence takes place during the present day though, in relation to the Remake it’s just showing the aftermath of slum citizens recovering. The ending sequence isn’t about time having changed, at least it’s not how I have interpreted it.

Tets is referring to the sequence as it unfolds starting all the way back from the highway, punctuated as it is throughout with Aerith's "We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed...if we win...we'll be changing ourselves"; "The future is always a blank page"; and "We can do this. We can. We can change it—make it right!" -- these being also bookended by Sephiroth's lines.

The overall chapter is about changes, which the development team has been asking us to accept for several years now across the FFVIIR announcement, the MobiusFF crossover, and various interviews. Showing us "nothing changed" rings ... wait for it ... hollow.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Wow that motorcycle chase battle is WAAAY too long. I don't want to fight motorball from the back of a bike.
It's the kind of thing that makes me give up on a game if I get a Game Over because I just don't want to have to play it again.

 

[Aphyo]

Wow that motorcycle chase battle is WAAAY too long. I don't want to fight motorball from the back of a bike.
It's the kind of thing that makes me give up on a game if I get a Game Over because I just don't want to have to play it again.

Positive spin - At least that keeps the timeline from changing.

 

[pollenainne]

Tets is referring to the sequence as it unfolds starting all the way back from the highway, punctuated as it is throughout with Aerith's "We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed...if we win...we'll be changing ourselves"; "The future is always a blank page"; and "We can do this. We can. We can change it—make it right!" -- these being also bookended by Sephiroth's lines.

The overall chapter is about changes, which the development team has been asking us to accept for several years now across the FFVIIR announcement, the MobiusFF crossover, and various interviews. Showing us "nothing changed" rings ... wait for it ... hollow.

Oh I definitely agree that there will be changes, it's just not as drastic as some think it will be. And some "hopeful" changes are most probably to pull you up so you can fall harder. lol. Did people discuss the 7 second line in the Japanese version yet? I think it was pretty clear what it meant, to old players that is... SE is such a tease.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Only two weeks until the Ultimania releases. x_x

Holy shit, it's coming out that quickly?

Fuck yeah, I thought it wasn't coming out til Sept or something.

There's equivalency in the flavor identified on the bags, as well as in this unfamiliar pup occupying a space previously -- and ubiquitously -- solely occupied by one other military canine.

If we're going to insist on those stars being of utmost importance, then I'll just have to also point out that these two sons of bitches (yay puns) have drastically different dog tags and therefore must not even be part of the same nation's military -- in which case, they're probably not friends, and the Zack dog almost certainly isn't one of Stamp's champs (speaking of puns).

For that matter, neither dog looks to be an age appropriate for such a high rank. =P

Well of course they don't look age appropriate, they're cartoon mascots.

Dog tags are known to have differing styles depending on branch of service. All I'm saying is that if we're supposed to be noticing a specific detail such as "Stamp being a different breed in this AU" why would they juxtapose that detail alongside Stamp carrying other dogs in his cartoon, the chip brand implying more than one cartoon character, and showcase the new Stamp with an entirely different rank? There's a thread of inconsistency in the intetionality of the symbolism. Hell, when the tv show Sliders did these type of nuanced or glaringly obvious detail changes, they made sure there was no equivocation. In one universe, there was the Golden Gate Bridge. In the other universe, it was the Azure Gate Bridge. You wouldn't miss it.

Furthermore, the question remains, where does it lead? An AU timeline is created from the destruction of the Whispers, where does that lead? And why are none of the other scenes shown throughout that ending sequence shown as drastically different, like Zack being alive?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I really didn't want or need all this bullshit Kingdom Hearts-slash-Heisenbergian infinite possible universes stuff cluttering up my tale of eco-terrorists, space aliens and corporate greed. It's not interesting.

 

[Odysseus]

I just realized that Shademp still hasn't beaten the game. I can't wait to get his take on this.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Something occured to me. What happened when Aerith used her magic in the breach that Sephiroth opened in the Whispers' Barrier? Yes, besides changing it from pitch black to glowing white.

 

[Theozilla]

Tets is referring to the sequence as it unfolds starting all the way back from the highway, punctuated as it is throughout with Aerith's "We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed...if we win...we'll be changing ourselves"; "The future is always a blank page"; and "We can do this. We can. We can change it—make it right!" -- these being also bookended by Sephiroth's lines.

The overall chapter is about changes, which the development team has been asking us to accept for several years now across the FFVIIR announcement, the MobiusFF crossover, and various interviews. Showing us "nothing changed" rings ... wait for it ... hollow.

Like pollenainne said, I don’t expect there to be zero changes, I do expect there to be a number of changes/expansions to the “meat” of the FFVII story/plot, similar to what this first installment has done so far (like I am sure Wutai will be very different, I bet Cid and Shera’s relationship will have significant rewrites, etc.). I just don’t think the main skeleton of the OG FFVII events are going to be changed, Zack’s death being one of the main big ones.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They can still showcase changes, I agree that there will be and am all for it.

What I'm confused about is the point or purpose of an alternate timeline/universe. How does that play out within the narrative or next game? If the Whispers are gone, Sephiroth lost his power up with them, and "Destiny" have been removed from the equation, what does the AU do?

Is the next game going to be called, "Final Fantasy VII: Sliders" and Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII discover they've walked out of the Singularity into the wrong universe, and now they have to keep trying to pry open singularities in space-time so that they can hope to make their way back home?

I just don't understand what the AU concept brings to the table other than an explanation of how Zack is walking away from a fight with grunts.

 

[pollenainne]

Like pollenainne said, I don’t expect there to be zero changes, I do expect there to be a number of changes/expansions to the “meat” of the FFVII story/plot, similar to what this first installment has done so far (like I am sure Wutai will be very different, I bet Cid and Shera’s relationship will have significant rewrites, etc.). I just don’t think the main skeleton of the OG FFVII events are going to be changed, Zack’s death being one of the main big ones.

And Aerith needs to die.

They can still showcase changes, I agree that there will be and am all for it.

What I'm confused about is the point or purpose of an alternate timeline/universe. How does that play out within the narrative or next game? If the Whispers are gone, Sephiroth lost his power up with them, and "Destiny" have been removed from the equation, what does the AU do?

Is the next game going to be called, "Final Fantasy VII: Sliders" and Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII discover they've walked out of the Singularity into the wrong universe, and now they have to keep trying to pry open singularities in space-time so that they can hope to make their way back home?

I just don't understand what the AU concept brings to the table other than an explanation of how Zack is walking away from a fight with grunts

Maybe part 2 will have nothing similar to the OG at all and it will be the team jumping from one timeline to another to hunt Sephiroth and save everyone... ok that was a lame joke...

Oh and maybe Sephiroth gets stronger as he absorbs all the other Sephiroths like in The One or has memory of all other Sephiroths like that anime Hitman Reborn...