SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
what's the evidence of Wedge being alive?
There is no "evidence," there's just a knowledge of tropes. Cutting to black rather than showing him fall and die just begs for something to have saved him, all the while making the audience think otherwise. It's a ridiculously common trope in media. Is that the best reason to suspect he might not be dead? No. But with Biggs surviving, and it being reasonably implied that Jessie also survived, might as well go 3 for 3. We won't know anything until part 2, but I'm thinking their survival might tie in to the expanded role of the other Avalanche cel. Also, Jessie's history with gold saucer is arbitrary enough in this game to almost beg for use when the party actually goes there later.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Holy shit, it's coming out that quickly?

Fuck yeah, I thought it wasn't coming out til Sept or something.

The release date is April 28! Blessedly.

Mako said:
Dog tags are known to have differing styles depending on branch of service.

Unless you're speaking of non-U.S. branches I know nothing about, you're mistaken. There have been a few sizes and designs over the decades, and the specific listing of information may vary by branch, but two sets of tags issued today to two personnel in separate branches will be of the same design.

Mako said:
... the chip brand implying more than one cartoon character ...

Does it, though? "Champ" is also just another word for "chomp" or "bite." So while there may be a play on words here beyond just the rhyming, it's possibly nothing more than something comparable to "Drew's Chews."

At any rate, we see several bags of Stamp's Champs on the Rasberry dinner table and don't see another dog on a bag until the ending shenanigans.

I just don't understand what the AU concept brings to the table other than an explanation of how Zack is walking away from a fight with grunts.

I don't have an answer for that, nor am I saying -- let me stress this -- that it sounds like a good idea. It just appears to be what we're getting stuck with, either in the form of this universe's history transitioning into something else or an additional new branching timeline off of the one we started with here.

For that matter, one doesn't even need an AU to explain Zack's survival. FFVIIR is already an AU relative to the original game.

An AU of an AU? :monster: Probably not what most of us were hankering for, but we'll see what it means.

A quick thought about The Great Stamp Debate: if meant to indicate an alternate timeline, why would a mascot change, of all things? Yes, yes, butterfly effect and all, but Zack surviving has no bearing on the already-existing design of his company’s propaganda. The crux of this timeline theory is always around Zack surviving, yet the point of divergence must have been a while before that if a company’s mascot not only changed, but changed long enough in the past for the design to be an established mascot on merchandise and stuff.

For the dog to mean anything and everything to sync up nicely, then, Zack’s survival can’t be the point of divergence, but is instead a side effect. That means Sephiroth would have needed to have changed something in the past that still led to Zack and a comatose Cloud escaping a Mako facility, but also resulted in Zack now surviving instead.

Let me say that again: in order for Zack’s survival to NOT be the point of divergence, which it can’t be if Stamp’s design is indicative of anything, whatever was changed affected nothing of substance until the specific moment of Zack’s survival.

Ironically, I didn't have too big a problem with this changing-the-past stuff until I verified the two Stamps, as it led me to the very realization you've pointed out. XD
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
There is no "evidence," there's just a knowledge of tropes. Cutting to black rather than showing him fall and die just begs for something to have saved him, all the while making the audience think otherwise. It's a ridiculously common trope in media. Is that the best reason to suspect he might not be dead? No. But with Biggs surviving, and it being reasonably implied that Jessie also survived, might as well go 3 for 3. We won't know anything until part 2, but I'm thinking their survival might tie in to the expanded role of the other Avalanche cel. Also, Jessie's history with gold saucer is arbitrary enough in this game to almost beg for use when the party actually goes there later.

The cut to black could also be due to censorship. They don't show blood or anything in the Remakw, either. I could see that being the reason as well.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Killing Barret and then bringing him back to life was so cheap and corny. Did the game-makers actually think we'd think for one minute he was really dead?

I believe the idea of this was to show, definitively, what the whispers' role was, not to shock/scare us. Obviously they didn't think we'd think he'd be dead for one minute because they heal him instantly.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I believe the idea of this was to show, definitively, what the whispers' role was, not to shock/scare us. Obviously they didn't think we'd think he'd be dead for one minute because they heal him instantly.

This. It's to hammer down the point that they're the Canon Protection Squad and with them gone now, anything could happen and the storyline of the OG does not need to be followed. Aerith could live, Barret could die, Moogles and Tonberries living together, MASS HYSTERIA.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
The cut to black could also be due to censorship. They don't show blood or anything in the Remakw, either. I could see that being the reason as well.

Except that the very same technique of fading to black was used in Chapter 12 when the debris was falling toward him. Hence, the possibility of it being another fake-out is fairly strong.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
We know the Whispers around Midgar got exploded, but we don’t if they are gone-gone 100% yet. Also even if it is the latter situation, that doesn’t necessitate the next installments going off the rails completely. Especially when the developers have expressed interested in still recreating the major iconic scenes from the original narrative. Just because the content of the journey may differ significantly doesn’t mean the major stops and destination will differ.
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
This. It's to hammer down the point that they're the Canon Protection Squad and with them gone now, anything could happen and the storyline of the OG does not need to be followed. Aerith could live, Barret could die, Moogles and Tonberries living together, MASS HYSTERIA.
Yep! However since they now know what is ahead they can prevent lots from happening including Sephiroth's plan, and preventing aerith from dying as well.

I love that cause now our theories could be true we can theorize what will happen next it's gonna be very interesting where part 2 will go
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Does it, though? "Champ" is also just another word for "chomp" or "bite." So while there may be a play on words here beyond just the rhyming, it's possibly nothing more than something comparable to "Drew's Chews."

At any rate, we see several bags of Stamp's Champs on the Rasberry dinner table and don't see another dog on a bag until the ending shenanigans.

First off, is that the only other place we see these chips? I think that's important.

Also, I didn't know about that pun. Huh.

I dunno, if this is a "spot the difference" to determine an AU, its not very clear. The trope is meant to be utilized in a more straightforward and less ambiguous way. The dog having a different rank and being on a chip brand that only appears in one other scene doesn't offer a significant, clear tell like, the Coca Cola brand symbol saying "Pepsi" and Pepsi's disc saying "Coca-Cola."


I don't have an answer for that, nor am I saying -- let me stress this -- that it sounds like a good idea. It just appears to be what we're getting stuck with, either in the form of this universe's history transitioning into something else or an additional new branching timeline off of the one we started with here.

For that matter, one doesn't even need an AU to explain Zack's survival. FFVIIR is already an AU relative to the original game.

I don't see how it could be used at all. If they introduce an AU, that means you use it, right? What would be the point of introducing the concept and not using it, save for showcasing a single scene of Zack living? It makes no sense.

If they do use it, then that means we either visit it, or we're gonna be in it. That seems like a lot of work from a game design and story scenario perspective that's bizarre. I just don't see how it threads that way. Zack showing up can easily be a nod to the past and such, without it spinoffing that hard.

The FFVII-R Ultimania will be very interesting to see. Because I'm sure they'll talk about the ending in detail.

An AU of an AU? :monster: Probably not what most of us were hankering for, but we'll see what it means.

I still think this is more akin to a time loop but we'll see :monster:

A loop would make sense and fit with what they've done before like Dissidia. And it also doesn't nullify the OG. It gives the Remake space to be FFVII while also teasing differences that ultimately lead to the same end.


Ironically, I didn't have too big a problem with this changing-the-past stuff until I verified the two Stamps, as it led me to the very realization you've pointed out. XD

My problem is how it's superfluous. An "AU-of-an-AU" as you put it. It's an entanglement that's unnecessary because that's not even Zack. That's Zack-2. So why even do that if it's only meant to do that?

If the next game is gonna use AUs, then it's gonna have to go all the way and that's gonna be insane. That's a Chekhov's Gun that'll explode. I can't even fathom how that would work. From a game design perspective as well.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Also, Mako, there's nothing saying that Jessie's glove isn't an indication of her survival, either. One of the last images we see of her is Cloud taking her hand when it falls away. Her left hand, same as her glove on the dresser. Possibly a subtle way of SE telling us that they'll meet again one day.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Also, Mako, there's nothing saying that Jessie's glove isn't an indication of her survival, either. One of the last images we see of her is Cloud taking her hand when it falls away. Her left hand, same as her glove on the dresser. Possibly a subtle way of SE telling us that they'll meet again one day.

That's trying to prove a negative. Jessie is shown to be dead, that happened. You're positing that Jessie's glove being on the desk is proof of her being alive. That's on you to prove your positive assertion. There are other reasons that could explain why it's there aside from her being alive. However, you can't "prove a negative." The established fact shown in the story is that Jessie is dead. For that to be contradicted, evidence of her survival, is necessary.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
SE put the glove there for a reason. They know exactly what people will think when they see it. And Biggs passed out the same way, making us think he was dead, only to show up alive in the ending. So who's to say the same can't be true of Jessie? Especially considering that the defeat of the Whispers means things have been changed from what happened before. They have power over life and death, and so it makes sense that the removal of their influence could reverse some of what came before. Such as Jessie dying. Zack is alive now, so it follows that the defeat of the Whispers could have also restored Jessie and Wedge as well. Remember, the cup had three pencils in it. Not two or four, but three. The same number as the trio. Another subtle message telling us they're alive. Everything in a scene is placed for a very specific reason. Visual symbolism is a thing in storytelling and shouldn't be disregarded.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Yeah, even as mr. Jessie avatar myself, I'm not about to assert that she's for-sure alive. Everything about the way that scene is framed screams to me that they're implying she is, but just like Wedge, there is no proof. The only "evidence" is that Biggs seemed just as dead as she did, but that's hardly proof. I know what I want, but its best not to get expectations too high, especially when its going to be years before we know anything for sure (unless the ultimania clarifies things.)
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Yeah, even as mr. Jessie avatar myself, I'm not about to assert that she's for-sure alive. Everything about the way that scene is framed screams to me that they're implying she is, but just like Wedge, there is no proof. The only "evidence" is that Biggs seemed just as dead as she did, but that's hardly proof. I know what I want, but its best not to get expectations too high, especially when its going to be years before we know anything for sure (unless the ultimania clarifies things.)

Just keep in mind that there's no proof either that defeating the Whispers didn't alter hers and Wedge's fates like it did Zack's. So it's quite possible that they could be alive. We'll just have to wait and see. But I believe that SE knew exactly what they were doing when they put her glove there. By showing that instead of showing her outright, it encourages more interest and speculation about it than knowing for sure at this point otherwise would. She's becoming a popular character thanks to the remake, and I'm sure SE knows that very well. Bringing her back for Part 2 along with Wedge and Biggs is something that's now possible thanks to the inevitable divergence from the OG timeline that defeating the Whispers represents. Fates have been changed, and possibly theirs as well.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
All I'm sying is that I'm not going to make any definitive statements on this until I know more. Right now Biggs has a solid check mark for his "currently alive" status, and that's all we know for sure. We'll see about the others, but it certainly is possible now. There's just nothing definite.
 

Lex

Administrator
Seriously wish I could get on board with camp "but the plot isn't going to change" but I absolutely cannot given how brazenly beaten over the head I was by Square Enix in the last two hours of that game with the absolutely certain notion that "things are going to change". Like that is literally the entire point of the shoehorn kingdom hearts smoke monster(tm). How people can be in here vomiting out 6 page long essays about cartoon dogs on crisps and claiming that freezing frame on a crisp packet featuring a different dog is evidence of nothing is utterly bizarre. We're all in a loony bin atm.

Lic I love you and your position on things so far.

I have the following to say/ reiterate:

- Jessie's corpse better be crushed like a pancake
- Hopefully Wedge is dead too
- Biggs isn't terrible looking, we'll give him a pass for being alive. 1/3 is acceptable and it might aswell be the dude who had the least focus of the 3
- Sephiroth better get stabby on an altar real soon and Aerith better be dead on the end of the masamune

Btw I hear things are utterly vitriolic regarding this on Twitter and elsewhere. Can I just say I hope that nobody here who is angry about the ending is exhibiting this behaviour? (I know you're not <3). Can I also say there is a small bad part of me that's looking forward to seeing if Square Enix respond in any way to that overwhelming negativity. There is an incredibly small chance they'll realise that the way this was handled was a misstep.

I want to make it clear that I think even if they felt they absolutely had to proceed with a kingdom hearts/ ffxiii/ evangelion break your fate story on top of the actual story of FFVII, there was a far better way to handle it than having it be explained and resolved in a whirlwind 1.5 hour section that's already at the end of a gruelling 3-6 hour dungeon and boss gauntlet (which is itself resolving a story). Like, even if you like the subject matter. It was so poorly implemented I honestly can't work out how anyone thought it was a good idea.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Well, as far as Jessie goes, obviously she was found one way or another because her glove is there on the dresser along with what might be her headband, and she was wearing them last we saw her. And Wedge, well since it cut to black, we don't really have a way to know for sure. But keep the previous fake-out in mind, because that's what it might be.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Seriously wish I could get on board with camp "but the plot isn't going to change" but I absolutely cannot given how brazenly beaten over the head I was by Square Enix in the last two hours of that game with the absolutely certain notion that "things are going to change". Like that is literally the entire point of the shoehorn kingdom hearts smoke monster(tm). How people can be in here vomiting out 6 page long essays about cartoon dogs on crisps and claiming that freezing frame on a crisp packet featuring a different dog is evidence of nothing is utterly bizarre. We're all in a loony bin atm.

Lic I love you and your position on things so far.

I have the following to say/ reiterate:

- Jessie's corpse better be crushed like a pancake
- Hopefully Wedge is dead too
- Biggs isn't terrible looking, we'll give him a pass for being alive. 1/3 is acceptable and it might aswell be the dude who had the least focus of the 3
- Sephiroth better get stabby on an altar real soon and Aerith better be dead on the end of the masamune

Btw I hear things are utterly vitriolic regarding this on Twitter and elsewhere. Can I just say I hope that nobody here who is angry about the ending is exhibiting this behaviour? (I know you're not <3). Can I also say there is a small bad part of me that's looking forward to seeing if Square Enix respond in any way to that overwhelming negativity. There is an incredibly small chance they'll realise that the way this was handled was a misstep.

I want to make it clear that I think even if they felt they absolutely had to proceed with a kingdom hearts/ ffxiii/ evangelion break your fate story on top of the actual story of FFVII, there was a far better way to handle it than having it be explained and resolved in a whirlwind 1.5 hour section that's already at the end of a gruelling 3-6 hour dungeon and boss gauntlet (which is itself resolving a story). Like, even if you like the subject matter. It was so poorly implemented I honestly can't work out how anyone thought it was a good idea.
Lex, Makoeyes987 and I may not be able to convince you that the skeleton of the OG plot will be retained go forward but have you read @X-SOLDIER ‘s write-up on the Remake yet? I found it particularly insightful in regards to his analysis on the final chapters of Remake, especially from a technological and development perspective.
 

Castiel Strife

Pro Adventurer
Still digesting everything, lol. I’ll say this though - the original game did a poor job of ever proving the deaths of Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie. It’s not unfathomable to think they survived, though both Biggs and Jessie sure looked to be dead/dying when Cloud caught up with them in the remake. We never did see their deaths in the original, so again it’s not out of the realm of possibility to think they survived. Maybe they all did.

What I’m not sure I would be on board with though is removing Zach’s or Aerith’s demise from the story. Some people seem to be taking it that they were showing Zach’s final moments. Me, I’m trying to figure out if that was them showing that Zach’s fate changed as well. The deaths of these two characters (as much as I love them both) mean so much to the series and the game and removing them could just kind of ruin the whole experience. You’re already walking a tightrope-rope if all of Avalanche survives. Of course we like to see people survive and characters we love survive, but some of the magic of FF7 is the pain we had to experience of losing characters we loved.
 

MelodicEnigma

Pro Adventurer
You know, even though this thread had an early start before the actual release date, I'm not at all surprised how much chaos has ensued after a few days officially. The more it goes on, the more I do grow anxious for what comes next. But, at least there is my own somewhat sadistic enjoyment of everyone's mixture of grief, interest, and confusion. I'm horrible I know.

The players:

300px-Pepe_Silvia.jpg

FF7 Devs and me:

MJ Popcorn.gif
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
Just keep in mind that there's no proof either that defeating the Whispers didn't alter hers and Wedge's fates like it did Zack's. So it's quite possible that they could be alive. We'll just have to wait and see. But I believe that SE knew exactly what they were doing when they put her glove there. By showing that instead of showing her outright, it encourages more interest and speculation about it than knowing for sure at this point otherwise would. She's becoming a popular character thanks to the remake, and I'm sure SE knows that very well. Bringing her back for Part 2 along with Wedge and Biggs is something that's now possible thanks to the inevitable divergence from the OG timeline that defeating the Whispers represents. Fates have been changed, and possibly theirs as well.
That is what I am saying I mean that is the only proof and we also do not know if wedge died or not either in shinra building cause it fades to black the only way we can know for sure is part 2 whenever that comes
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
The fact that cloud and gang ultimately changed timeline of original events leaves lots of possibilities opened and I if honest love that cause now anything could happen sephiroth could succeed instead of failing, aerith could survive now and all sorts of events could be altered
 
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