SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Jairus]

Of course we are, but it is equally possible that Biggs (or whoever) took them off her as a memento when they found her body. We don't know yet and we won't know until they decide to tell us

Then why would he only take one glove and not both? It doesn't flow with the visual progression of the scene and the thoughts it's meant to generate and connect. Besides, Biggs doesn't look to have been in any condition to have gone looking for her, and a random rescue worker wouldn't know she had known him. He probably doesn't even know yet that her things are there. As I said before, I'm guessing that she left them there for him as a way to tell him she's okay before leaving to go off somewhere, possibly to meet up with Cloud and the others somewhere along the way. I can see her journey being one of atonement and redemption after how she blamed herself for the casualties of the bombings despite not knowing it was really Shinra's doing.

 

[Theozilla]

Then why would he only take one glove and not both? It doesn't flow with the visual progression of the scene and the thoughts it's meant to generate and connect.

Dude, Lex just agreed that's there is a possibility that Jessie survived, it's just not something that can be hard confirmed with the current evidence at hand, likewise with Wedge being alive or dead. Stating that Jessie and Wedge are dead until otherwise stated/shown, doesn't eliminate the possibility that they might pop up again if Nojima/SE chooses to do so.

 

[Jairus]

I understand that, I was just saying what the scene seems to suggest, is all. Jessie's glove is shown before Biggs being alive, so we're meant to think of her and then, with the sight of Biggs being alive, connect that to Jessie's gear and come up with the thought that she might be alive, too. It just doesn't seem to suggest any other possibility to me.

 

[Odysseus]

While I completely agree with you Jairus, I still think its better to keep expectations in moderation. As I said:

I just think everyone is speaking incredibly definitively right now for something none of us know anything about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay so there's something else I just discovered. How do we explain this?

Look at 11:38. You see in the distance a pillar support for the adjacent sector's plate. The camera then pans left to showcase Seventh Heaven and the camera direction is directly in front, with the main Midgar central pillar behind the bar.

Above the bar is a steel sky. How is that possible?

 

[Lex]

To state my personal opinion on the matter, I hope she's dead. A triple fake-out is just too much, quadruple if they also decide Wedge survived his second apparent demise

 

[Jairus]

I suppose that's true, Ody. But I will continue to lean on the side of her survival. There's just too much potential story and character development that she could have building off of what was established in Part 1 to simply ignore and forget.

 

[Theozilla]

I understand that, I was just saying what the scene seems to suggest, is all. Jessie's glove is shown before Biggs being alive, so we're meant to think of her and then, with the sight of Biggs being alive, connect that to Jessie's gear and come up with the thought that she might be alive, too. It just doesn't seem to suggest any other possibility to me.

It's a possibility yes, but it's not a hard evidence that changes the current default position (i.e. if the FF wiki was to list Remake!Jessie's current status right now, listing "deceased" next to her age would be the accurate choice, with the mention of her gloves at the end of her character story summary).

 

[ForceStealer]

Then why would he only take one glove and not both?

I dunno, why is she apparently only wearing one if she's alive?

 

[Jairus]

To state my personal opinion on the matter, I hope she's dead. A triple fake-out is just too much, quadruple if they also decide Wedge survived his second apparent demise

Let's just see how they do it first before passing judgement. Things have been changed by the defeat of the Whispers, including who's alive and who's dead. And they put her glove there for a reason. It wasn't random or just for scenery.

 

[Odysseus]

To state my personal opinion on the matter, I hope she's dead. A triple fake-out is just too much, quadruple if they also decide Wedge survived his second apparent demise

I respect that, but I also know exactly where I stand on the issue too. If I'm being perfectly honest, I'd probably be willing to put up with a lot of plot shenanigans if it meant having Jessie around again. That's just my own bias on the situation though.

 

[Jairus]

I dunno, why is she apparently only wearing one if she's alive?

Who said she was? She might be wearing a whole different outfit now, as a way of separating herself from the girl who bombed the reactors and allegedly killed all those people.

 

[Tetsujin]

Your country needs you!

Alright, so I planned on eventually posting these in the ch15 thread or make another thread for it or whatever because I was baffled at how inconsistent the depiction of sector 7's destruction is
How much does this answer in regards to parallel timelines and other shenanigans? Absolutely zero!
But it could be an indicator that the ending FMV might also just be a goof because this shit is all over the place

So here in chapter 15 you get a good overview and you see all that rubble pile up on the left there at the reactor pretty high:

Yet in chapter 14:

Where the fuck is it

This is in ch 13 when you're *in* sector 7:

Where the fuck is it

Nothing towards the right either.

Let's look towards the center then.

The map of Midgar here shows pretty clearly how all that rubble is piling up towards the center, creating a massive "ramp" almost that you then use to climb up to the top in ch 15

This is on top of all that in ch15 where you also see some of the damage that the central pillar has taken:

Yet when you're down IN Sector 7 in ch13 and look STRAIGHT towards it:

...where the FUCK is it
what the hell are we climbing in chapter 15 then because there is no rubble here and it should be right in front

Ch14, no sign of any rubble leading up to the central pillar either

Then you might also notice that the pizza crust and the outer plate are missing. However in the FMV...

The crust and the entire frame of the plate actually stay in place here and so does the outer plate (the outer plate is also still visible in the Midgar map)

So, what does this tell us?

That Midgar is in the fucking Twilight Zone and nothing makes sense

 

[SpacemanZero]

If the ending scene plate is a fuck up, then they need to patch that asap. It's the one thing that's the biggest evidence towards another timeline. Sure, the golden dust and Stamp and all that are too, but it's when you combine all those that it starts to really make "sense".

Though I disagree with Theo about the sign on some level, I agree that it's a detail that's so easy to miss, that they can't built anything on that alone.

I guess I/we should back down and think this again from the eyes new players, which are also a major audience and possibly more important for the future than OG players. It's not easy (unless someone here is a new player, I'd love to hear your thoughts?).

If they're really going for another timeline shenanigans, then it needs to be really clear in the end. Which it is not, if the plate is a fuck up. As long as that plate is there, people could be understanding the ending really wrong, which could backfire badly and it kinda has already, if it's a mistake.

New players don't know who the dark haired man is in the end. They don't know that he is supposed to die after that battle in the end. They don't know his significance. And they sure as hell don't know what it would mean to the story, if there was a separate timeline where lived, or worse, a completely new merged timeline where he lived along our protagonists. They might think that Biggs living is a bit weird and would probably miss Jessie's gloves. They would probably notice the different dog and they would notice the golden dust. But I'm not sure if they would get the idea of another timeline just from those. I think they would just take Zack as foreshadowing and the ending as an ending with hope?

FF7's plot is really complex already and adding any timeline shenanigans to it is a really big risk especially considering what this project was supposed to be. They made a game that is 90 % faithful to the original. For what, to completely throw it out of the window in the next game? I don't think so. All of the interviews still point to the fact that they're committed to a mostly faithful Remake, with more depth to everything and also new stories and new ways to tell old stories and possibly changing some major story beats also. And that's fine and exciting. Maybe scary to someone else. But putting multiple timelines and all that on top of the original story is on a whole other level.

So if you're really going for a story with multiple timelines, you need to make it pretty clear to everyone, and not just to mess with the OG players. This can't have any fuck ups, like leaving an intact sector 7 skybox in the ending scene, unless it's meant to be there.

If they start the next game from a totally new merged timeline (Zack alive and all that) with a shit ton of plot holes, I feel like they would just lose everyone instantly and risk one of their most important project ever. One of the most ambitious gaming projects ever. I really don't see them pull it off, at all. I don't see many new players or many existing players happy with that. Is it just me? Hopefully not.

So what if they start the next game with the original timeline, but there's also a separate timeline, which they would use for example to sometimes show visions of things that could have been (and maybe the bad ending like I was speculating)? Well, that could work even with new players, but it needs to be established clearly.

If they start the next game with a single original timeline (without any other timelines ever) where things are mostly the same as in the original game, aside from Biggs and maybe Jessie and Wedge living, well that would of course be the most sensible way to do it, even after all that freeing the destiny thing. The destiny thing and changing themselves would still come to play later on with the new story additions and changes.

I mean I don't want another timeline. I really don't. But it's not about that. If that plate is a fuck up, it needs to go asap. It changes the whole ending. You can put the golden dust under some other explanation, and you can put Stamp as a symbol for the original SOLDIER, but if you combine those and put an intact sector 7 plate on the ending scene and revive dead people, then you really need to go for another timeline 100 %, or fix that shit asap.

I think I'm off to bed, see you tomorrow!

 

[Lex]

Alright, so I planned on eventually posting these in the ch15 thread or make another thread for it or whatever because I was baffled at how inconsistent the depiction of sector 7's destruction is
How much does this answer in regards to parallel timelines and other shenanigans? Absolutely zero!
But it could be an indicator that the ending FMV might also just be a goof because this shit is all over the place

So here in chapter 15 you get a good overview and you see all that rubble pile up on the left there at the reactor pretty high:

Yet in chapter 14:

Where the fuck is it

This is in ch 13 when you're *in* sector 7:

Where the fuck is it

Nothing towards the right either.

Let's look towards the center then.

The map of Midgar here shows pretty clearly how all that rubble is piling up towards the center, creating a massive "ramp" almost that you then use to climb up to the top in ch 15

This is on top of all that in ch15 where you also see some of the damage that the central pillar has taken:

Yet when you're down IN Sector 7 in ch13 and look STRAIGHT towards it:

...where the FUCK is it
what the hell are we climbing in chapter 15 then because there is no rubble here and it should be right in front

Ch14, no sign of any rubble leading up to the central pillar either

Then you might also notice that the pizza crust and the outer plate are missing. However in the FMV...

The crust and the entire frame of the plate actually stay in place here and so does the outer plate (the outer plate is also still visible in the Midgar map)

So, what does this tell us?

That Midgar is in the fucking Twilight Zone and nothing makes sense

Omg I love you Tets XD

Saved me a bunch of trouble and provided an enjoyable commentary to boot <3. Where the FUCK IS IT

 

[Theozilla]

Okay so there's something else I just discovered. How do we explain this?

Look at 11:38. You see in the distance a pillar support for the adjacent sector's plate. The camera then pans left to showcase Seventh Heaven and the camera direction is directly in front, with the main Midgar central pillar behind the bar.

Above the bar is a steel sky. How is that possible?

Are you talking about this shot Mako?


If Marle and the people moving the Seventh Heaven sign are meant to be in the Sector 6 slums during that scene, that support pillar and plate in the distance would be for Sector 5, I believe.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The ending sequence shows zero debris facing the central pillar from Sector 7 at all, as well.

Which either means it's a consistent continuity error or that the plate never fell.

Are you talking about this shot Mako?
View attachment 5585

If Marle and the people moving the Seventh Heaven sign are meant to be in the Sector 6 slums during that scene, that support pillar and plate in the distance would be for Sector 5 I believe.

You sure? I thought Sector 5 would be to the right?

Also whats up with the shot behind Seventh Heaven, showing the central Midgar pillar? There's nothing there. I don't understand how any of it makes sense.

 

[Odysseus]

Remember how Sephiroth's gloves kept popping on and off during Aerith's death scene, or how the direction she was facing kept changing? In what was arguably the most pivotal scene in the entire game?

 

[ForceStealer]

Today on things I wouldn't have really noticed I just dumbly marveled at having an unobstructed view of the sky

 

[Theozilla]

The ending sequence shows zero debris facing the central pillar from Sector 7 at all, as well.

Which either means it's a consistent continuity error or that the plate never fell.



You sure? I thought Sector 5 would be to the right?

Also whats up with the shot behind Seventh Heaven, showing the central Midgar pillar? There's nothing there. I don't understand how any of it makes sense.

Ah you're right, I made a mistake, I thought the central pillar was on the left side of the screen shot, but I forgot after more panning it shows up to the right hand-side of the screen/behind the sign.



It's really hard to tell if Marle and the workers are supposed to be in the Sector 6 slums or the Sector 7 slum ruins. If it's the former that means we're looking at the Sector 7 plate still intact (either due to animation error or intentional design), if it's the latter that means the Sector 6 background/skybox got used the for the destroyed Sector 7 plate/sky, and what we are looking at is Sector 8 (or Sector 1 in the distance depending on the angle/slice?) I guess?

 

[badjuju]

To state my personal opinion on the matter, I hope she's dead. A triple fake-out is just too much, quadruple if they also decide Wedge survived his second apparent demise

Oh, I'd bet all three of them will either turn out to be alive or be revived by Singularity/Lifestream shenanigans before the end of this series.

If Square Enix's handling of their post-FF7 continuity has taught me one thing over the years, it's that no popular character ever actually dies in this increasingly-silly franchise. After all, you can't produce endless spin-offs, sequels, and side-stories featuring these characters if you actually kill them off, right? In fact, if there is an AU where Zack lives, I'm certain it was done so they start churning out new 'What-If?' media in said timeline featuring him and other 'alternate' versions of fan favorites.

Pretty much no one of any importance dies for certain in this game (President Shinra is the only one I can recall off the top of my head), so I expect the entire main cast (those important enough to actually appear in plot-related cutscenes, that is) to survive til the end of this "unknown journey", if this game is any indication. Just like in Kingdom Hearts, anyone, no matter how conclusive their demise may have appeared, can and probably will be mined back to life for cheap shock value if the writers (or fanbase) demand it.

I mean, Nomura/Nojima couldn't even bring themselves to have Marle die from the plate collapse. Marle. A lady that already has one foot in the grave.

It's sad, because one of the central themes of OG FF7 was about loss, and having to deal with that loss, just like in real life. It's a shame that theme (and many others) seems to be gradually being subsumed by yet another Nomura/Nojima treatise on Determinism.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ah you're right, I made a mistake, I thought the central pillar was on the left side of the screen shot, but I forgot after more panning it shows up to the right hand-side of the screen/behind the sign.
View attachment 5588
View attachment 5589

It's really hard to tell if Marle and the workers are supposed to be in the Sector 6 slums or the Sector 7 slum ruins. If it's the former that means we're looking at the Sector 7 plate still intact (either due to animation error or intentional design), if it's the latter that means the Sector 6 background/skybox got used the for the destroyed Sector 7 plate/sky, and what we are looking at is Sector 8 I guess?

If it was a mistaken sky animation error, that would mean they did it twice, right.

Is that likely?

That's what I was thinking. If Marie and the others are in Sector 6, that shows 7 in tact. If they're in 7, it's either a two-fer animation error. Or an intentional animation.

If Square Enix's handling of their post-FF7 continuity has taught me one thing over the years, it's that no popular character ever actually dies in this increasingly-silly franchise. After all, you can't produce endless spin-offs, sequels, and side-stories featuring these characters if you actually kill them off, right? In fact, if there is an AU where Zack lives, I'm certain it was done so they start churning out new 'What-If?' media in said timeline featuring him and other 'alternate' versions of fan favorites.

Pretty much no one of any importance dies for certain in this game (President Shinra is the only one I can recall off the top of my head), so I expect the entire main cast (those important enough to actually appear in plot-related cutscenes, that is) to survive til the end of this "unknown journey", if this game is any indication. Just like in Kingdom Hearts, anyone, no matter how conclusive their demise may have appeared, can and probably will be mined back to life for cheap shock value if the writers (or fanbase) demand it.

What are you even talking about.

No one has died in the Compilation?

Zack didn't die? Angeal didn't die? Lazard didn't die? Fabio didn't die? Yuri didn't die? Ruvie Tuesti didn't die? Aerith came back? Shalua came back?

What great rezzing event in the a Compilation are you referring to?

I mean, Nomura/Nojima couldn't even bring themselves to have Marle die from the plate collapse. Marle. A lady that already has one foot in the grave.

So what insight do you carry in terms of her greater future use or non use?

Maybe they wanted to keep an old lady around since Muirelle, Kyrie's grandmother, dies during FFVII. But you knew that right?

 

[Odysseus]

If they're meant to be at the location of the 7th Heaven, the sky box makes absolutley no sense. Its clear in that ending that they're directly under what appears to be the Sector 6 plate. I also don't know why they'd be in the sector 6 slums though. For now I'm sticking with this either being a mistake, or for some reason they decided to use the sector 6 plate to represent the collapsed sector 7. This does not seem intentional to me.

 

[Eerie]

Rewatching that ending again, I still feel that Zack died. There is aknowledgement in Aerith's face, even if she's stubbornly denied until then (at least in the OG). The glow is interesting in itself, but it reminds me a bit of the healing that Aerith does at the end of AC/C, like, Midgard is healing as a whole and that's why you get nice scenes of people reconstructing, clearing the debris, etc. It encompasses Zack's scene too because it was a singularity in the past, present and future - maybe a few things have been changed, but looking at that particular scene, you can still feel Aerith's sadness when she understands what happened.

As for Jessie, all bets are off, but she and Biggs weren't on the same level at all, she was at the top of the pillar when he was down there, it was easier for people to go and get him before the pillar even fell, while it was impossible to get her because the stairs were damaged, so she had to survive the attack+pillar fall (since she was at the top), so I'm very dubious about her being in a better state than Biggs. Rather, it may be possible that all they found was that glove+headband...

 

[Theozilla]

I DID IT I FIGURED IT OUT!
@Makoeyes987 @SpacemanZero
The ending sequence with Marle and the workers and kids are definitely supposed to be in the Sector 7 Slum Ruins. I was able to definitively identify it thanks to the bus that is next to Marle's apartments.



This means that this shot is indeed meant to be the Sector 7 sky next to the Sector 8 plate, but they goofed up and used the Sector 6 plate remains instead.
So like Lex said, not an alternate timeline where the Sector 7 plate didn't fall, just a goof with the Sector 6 skybox being used instead.

EDIT: D'oh! I just realized I should have written Reactor 8 not 7 in the last screenshot.
EDIT2: There I fixed it