SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Odysseus]

 

[billy22]

Jessie is probably dead. The gloves are there as a memoriam type of thing imo. 'Gone but not forgotten,' and shown at the moment when Biggs wakes up. Were she alive, it makes more sense to either show her with Biggs or instead of him. Because a) she's more popular, b) got more development than her two companions, and c)is a cute flirty girl.

Note the use of probably- just in case the Jessie fans decide to jump down my throat.

On the flip side, Wedge is probably still alive. Why bring him back for a couple of pointless scenes he wasn't necessary for, only to kill him again offscreen?

I'm with Lex on not liking Avalanche being alive. If we ignore the AU talk and arbiters of fate, the worst thing about this remake is easily Avalanche being alive. It just takes away so much from the plate scene. Why care about Bigg's death speech? Or Wedge's moment? Or Barret lamenting having lost....approximately one person instead of three like he thought? The weight of that scene is largely lost.

 

[Theozilla]

On the flip side, Wedge is probably still alive. Why bring him back for a couple of pointless scenes he wasn't necessary for, only to kill him again offscreen?

Eh, I think Wedge is equally likely as Jessie to be dead, if not more so. Sure there was a fade to black, but the sound of glass shattering is pretty indicative of Wedge having a fatal fall.

 

[Odysseus]

Don't worry, I'm not about to argue. I know how I see things, and I know how other people see things, and to each their own. Arguing is pointless until part 2 rolls around anyway.

 

[Eerie]

Eh, I think Wedge is equally likely as Jessie to be dead, if not more so. Sure there was a fade to black, but the sound of glass shattering is pretty indicative of Wedge having a fatal fall.

I think that since the Whispers have done mostly "good things" they needed to do something "bad" to set them up as "bad guys". That's how simple it is.

 

[billy22]

Eh, I think Wedge is equally likely as Jessie to be dead, if not more so. Sure there was a fade to black, but the sound of glass shattering is pretty indicative of Wedge having a fatal fall.

Still begs the question of:

a) Why not kill him at the plate in the first place. He wasn't needed for the couple of scenes he was in later.

b) Why offscreen his 'second death' instead of showing it.

Bear in mind that these were intentional narrative decisions. Look at it from a writer's POV. Also, he's technically survived one big fall already...

Don't worry, I'm not about to argue. I know how I see things, and I know how other people see things, and to each their own. Arguing is pointless until part 2 rolls around anyway.

I know you like Jessie as do a few others, but I don't know what you're expecting from her being alive. Are you expecting some kind of romance option or something? They wouldn't even let you romance her in this game when there was a perfect opportunity for it.

Even if she were alive, what then? Maybe she and her two companions show up in Midgar in Game 3/4 and help with the Cloud invasion? Or do you expect them to join the party in the next game...despite none of them being playable in this game, or even being around for half of this game?

I love the Avalanche characters, but I just don't see the long-term value in keeping them around. Of course they obviously have some kind of idea for Biggs and probably Wedge, but I doubt it's more than minor relevance- such as an extra boss fight, or helping with the Midgar invasion in the last game, etc.

 

[Theozilla]

Still begs the question of:

a) Why not kill him at the plate in the first place. He wasn't needed for the couple of scenes he was in later.

b) Why offscreen his 'second death' instead of showing it.

Bear in mind that these were intentional narrative decisions. Look at it from a writer's POV. Also, he's technically survived one big fall already...

Regardless of whether he was "needed" or not, it's probably as simple as the writers wanting to use him more in the Remake.

Why did they off-screen his death? I dunno, there are potentially multiple reasons. Maybe they felt a cut to black with only sound was more effective, maybe they didn't want to spend time to animate his character and the parts of the Shinra building breaking (since animation takes time), etc.
Also his first big fall survival makes his survival for his second less likely IMO, especially in his first big fall he had a grappling gun, and the second one he didn't.

 

[Roger]

Still begs the question of:

a) Why not kill him at the plate in the first place. He wasn't needed for the couple of scenes he was in later.

b) Why offscreen his 'second death' instead of showing it.

Bear in mind that these were intentional narrative decisions. Look at it from a writer's POV. Also, he's technically survived one big fall already...

I know you like Jessie as do a few others, but I don't know what you're expecting from her being alive. Are you expecting some kind of romance option or something? They wouldn't even let you romance her in this game when there was a perfect opportunity for it.

Even if she were alive, what then? Maybe she and her two companions show up in Midgar in Game 3/4 and help with the Cloud invasion? Or do you expect them to join the party in the next game...despite none of them being playable in this game, or even being around for half of this game?

I love the Avalanche characters, but I just don't see the long-term value in keeping them around. Of course they obviously have some kind of idea for Biggs and probably Wedge, but I doubt it's more than minor relevance- such as an extra boss fight, or helping with the Midgar invasion in the last game, etc.

Biggs isn't needed either, here he is. We don't need more Zack or Sephiroth either, but we'll get some anyway. More scenes with Jessie are it's own reward for plenty people, same as these other characters.

 

[Odysseus]

I know you like Jessie as do a few others, but I don't know what you're expecting from her being alive. Are you expecting some kind of romance option or something? They wouldn't even let you romance her in this game when there was a perfect opportunity for it.

Even if she were alive, what then? Maybe she and her two companions show up in Midgar in Game 3/4 and help with the Cloud invasion? Or do you expect them to join the party in the next game...despite none of them being playable in this game, or even being around for half of this game?

That's the beautiful thing, isn't it? I have no idea what they're going to do, but its clear they're going to do something. I know a certain somebody on here who would love a romance sub plot, but I dunno if they'd go that far. I doubt they'd be playable either.

If you want some guesses from me, here's a few. I'm almost certain the larger Avalanche organization will play a big role going forward, their appearance in chapter 4 was obvious set up for that. I wouldn't be surprised if Biggs and Jessie if she's alive to rejoin with them and eventually meet up with the party later on. I alse figure Jessie's history with the Gold saucer will come back into play. That aspect of her character was so out of the blue I can't help but see it as set up.

At the end of the day, I don't know what they're gonna do. Nobody here does. We'll see in a few years. And like the guy above me just said,

More scenes with Jessie are it's own reward

 

[Jairus]

As for Jessie, all bets are off, but she and Biggs weren't on the same level at all, she was at the top of the pillar when he was down there, it was easier for people to go and get him before the pillar even fell, while it was impossible to get her because the stairs were damaged, so she had to survive the attack+pillar fall (since she was at the top), so I'm very dubious about her being in a better state than Biggs. Rather, it may be possible that all they found was that glove+headband...

If that was the case, why bother showing her glove at all? And she was wearing both and more, so finding them would've meant finding her. They aren't going to suddenly come off of her on her own. And a rescue person would have no way of knowing Biggs even knew her, so would have no reason to bring anything like that to him. We're shown her glove before we're shown Biggs. Consider the order that they were shown in, because it's important. The entire sequence is meant to show the possibility that she's alive. And, considering the Whispers were beaten, things are different and with them gone, she may have been able to escape the blast and not gotten buried at all, because they were the ones who intervened to cause her alleged death.

 

[billy22]

Biggs isn't needed either, here he is. We don't need more Zack or Sephiroth either, but we'll get some anyway. More scenes with Jessie are it's own reward for plenty people, same as these other characters.

Biggs being shown is for setup of the next game (or a later game at some point). Or to show that since fate has been defeated, all bets are off for character fates...etc. There are a lot of possiblities. We've already got an interview on Sephiroth and Zack getting more screen time was obvious. And besides, you can't honestly compare the importance of Zack and Sephiroth to the importance of Biggs and Wedge.

Wedge on the other hand, was specifically spared and shown to be spared soon after the plate falls, has a few scenes where he isn't necessary, then gets offscreen killed instead of killed on-screen. There are many more intentional narrative decisions here than in Biggs' case. I do not think it is valid to consider the two situations the same.

Maybe I'm overthinking it though. Maybe Wedge really was only brought back as a death fake-out...this game did do that more than once.

 

[Jairus]

I know you like Jessie as do a few others, but I don't know what you're expecting from her being alive. Are you expecting some kind of romance option or something? They wouldn't even let you romance her in this game when there was a perfect opportunity for it.

Even if she were alive, what then? Maybe she and her two companions show up in Midgar in Game 3/4 and help with the Cloud invasion? Or do you expect them to join the party in the next game...despite none of them being playable in this game, or even being around for half of this game?

I love the Avalanche characters, but I just don't see the long-term value in keeping them around. Of course they obviously have some kind of idea for Biggs and probably Wedge, but I doubt it's more than minor relevance- such as an extra boss fight, or helping with the Midgar invasion in the last game, etc.

You forget that Jessie has a history with the Gold Saucer, and letting her take Yuffie's spot in the date there nicely solves the issue of Cloud going out with a 16-year-old (because Jessie is around Aerith's age), plus it allows an exploration of Jessie's past there and further development of her character. Understand that Jessie's popularity is greatly increasing due to the remake, and it would've made little sense to try and make her playable for Part 1 given she wasn't as well known.

But now, with that game firmly establishing her and her story, it can serve as a baseline and foundation for possibly adding her to the playable cast to mix things up. I wouldn't expect all three to be added, that's too much, but just one could work, and she's no doubt the most popular and most developed of the three. She's also the only one with a last name. I admit it's still a long shot, but it's more likely now than it was when Part 1 was still in development. Or she could go along with the group as a significant NPC ally, much like Allen did in the Xenosaga series.

There wasn't as much opportunity for romancing Jessie in Part 1 because of the story having no choice but to jerk you away from her for the Reactor 5 mission and the subsequent separation from her. But Part 2 and beyond doesn't have those constraints, and she could, as I said, be added as an option for the Gold Saucer date, especially considering that she used to work there. And in the very play that was a part of that date sequence. That's storytelling potential that shouldn't be overlooked or ignored.

 

[billy22]

You forget that Jessie has a history with the Gold Saucer, and letting her take Yuffie's spot in the date there nicely solves the issue of Cloud going out with a 16-year-old (because Jessie is around Aerith's age), plus it allows an exploration of Jessie's past there and further development of her character. Understand that Jessie's popularity is greatly increasing due to the remake, and it would've made little sense to try and make her playable for Part 1 given she wasn't as well known.

But now, with that game firmly establishing her and her story, it can serve as a baseline and foundation for possibly adding her to the playable cast to mix things up. I wouldn't expect all three to be added, that's too much, but just one could work, and she's no doubt the most popular and most developed of the three. She's also the only one with a last name. I admit it's still a long shot, but it's more likely now than it was when Part 1 was still in development. Or she could go along with the group as a significant NPC ally, much like Allen did in the Xenosaga series.

There wasn't as much opportunity for romancing Jessie in Part 1 because of the story having no choice but to jerk you away from her for the Reactor 5 mission and the subsequent separation from her. But Part 2 and beyond don't have those constraints, and she could, as I said, be added as an option for the Gold Saucer date, especially considering that she used to work there. And in the very play that was a part of that date sequence. That's storytelling potential that shouldn't be overlooked or ignored.

The gold saucer theory is interesting.

But there is 0 chance she's going to replace Yuffie- a longstanding party member- as a date option. Heck, Yuffie may not be a dating option at all, it may just be Tifa and Aerith or just Aerith.

 

[Jairus]

The gold saucer theory is interesting.

But there is 0 chance she's going to replace Yuffie- a longstanding party member- as a date option. Heck, Yuffie may not be a dating option at all, it may just be Tifa and Aerith or just Aerith.

You don't know that. Change is going to be a thing in the remake. And Yuffie is only 16. Do you really think they'll have Cloud date someone that young? And I don't think they'll ditch the mechanic, either, considering it's in Part 1 in a different form already. So Jessie could still be an option. Additional, if not a Yuffie replacement.

 

[Tetsujin]

There are 4 more main dudes added to the cast. Jessie and the peanut gallery had their day in the spotlight, now they can fuck off imo

 

[Odysseus]

And I completely disagree, and that's just fine. Isn't being civil people who have different opinions fun?

 

[billy22]

You don't know that. Change is going to be a thing in the remake. And Yuffie is only 16. Do you really think they'll have Cloud date someone that young? And I don't think they'll ditch the mechanic, either, considering it's in Part 1 in a different form already. So Jessie could still be an option. Additional, if not a Yuffie replacement.

No I don't 'know that.' But this is like saying Cloud is going to get a unicorn steed that can shoot rainbow lasers in the next game. There is such a thing as burden of proof.

Yuffie is more likely to be a dating option than Jessie is. Because a) she's guaranteed to be alive, b)she's more popular than Jessie, c)she's a party member who will be in at least two games, and d)she was an option in the OG.

As for the 'being 16' thing, the date isn't particularly serious between them. It is basically a joke date.

Also you do know that over half the states in the US have an age of consent of 16 right? And in Japan it's 13?

There are 4 more main dudes added to the cast. Jessie and the peanut gallery had their day in the spotlight, now they can fuck off imo

I don't see a laugh option so I went with a like lol.

 

[Jairus]

Barely a quarter of a game is hardly the spotlight, Tets. And adding just one more new face isn't such a stretch as you think. Plus we have no way of knowing how many of the rest of the OG cast will even be in Part 2 yet. With Biggs alive and Jessie hinted to be, we're sure to see them again. And possibly more than you might think.

Billy, age of consent might be true, but it's not the same everywhere, and they may treat the date as less of a joke this time. Also, it's very possible that Jessie's alive, and saying Yuffie's still more popular when Jessie's own popularity is skyrocketing due to the remake is a bit misleading. And there's also the admittedly long-shot possibility that Jessie may get an upgrade to being playable in Part 2 as a way of mixing things up in the roster and further reinforcing that this is a new experience. Not the OG with better graphics.

 

[Theozilla]

As for the 'being 16' thing, the date isn't particularly serious between them. It is basically a joke date.

Also you do know that over half the states in the US have an age of consent of 16 right? And in Japan it's 13?

I agree that Yuffie's joke date is more likely to be retained than Jessie being alive and getting her own date. But don't use that "age of consent in Japan is 13" line, as that's just a federal minimum, all the prefectures have it raised to 18, so it comes off as misinformation and doesn't help your argument.

 

[Odysseus]

Okay, before this debate rages off the rails, I'm just going to remind everyone that Square doesn't care what we think and they'll do whatever they want, so again, there is zero point in arguing about this. We all know how this goes at this point.

I'm also pretty sure Yuffie is going to have a massively elevated role in part 2, seeing as so much focus was put on Wutai in part 1 here. Date or no, She'll have plenty of opportunity to interact with Cloud I'm sure. Maybe this discussion is better save for a "speculation about the next part" thread?

 

[billy22]

I agree that Yuffie's joke date is more likely to be retained than Jessie being alive and getting her own date. But don't use that "age of consent in Japan is 13" line, as that's just a federal minimum, all the prefectures have it raised to 18, so it comes off as misinformation and doesn't help your argument.
View attachment 5601

I just googled it. It wasn't important to the point. Technically, it wasn't even part of the 'argument,' it was more of an offhand comment about underage dating. Your link lists exceptions, anyway.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So we've established Square is sorta lacking in scenic continuity regarding Midgar and the plates...

I never thought I'd feel so reassured by that.

I'm leaning more towards it being a continuity error. However. It's a very weird one. If it isn't an error, then either Rufus has changed in the Remake and authorised some clean up and cursory rebuilding..


Or it's another universe. But given the numerous gaffes regarding the plate fall I find the timeline answer less compelling and unlikely.

We all seem to be the victim of ambiguous symbolism and animation errors. What a world.

 

[Odysseus]

Today has been a roller coaster, that's for sure.

 

[Theozilla]

I just googled it. It wasn't important to the point. Your link lists exceptions, anyway.

Sure, it's just that it's a line that gets used by many creeps on the Internet to misrepresent Japanese society, so I personally and sensitive to seeing that line get used. Also The Child Welfare Act still overrides the prefecture exceptions (which are likely for teenagers who are like 17 and 19).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Regarding Zack, worst case, mind-screwy scenario; it's an alternate timeline separated from the main plot.

However I still feel it's more likely the past.

If it isn't? Well. That's would be a weird and superfluous addition of fan service that ultimately doesn't change what's happened. It's an unnecessary and confusing addition.