SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

Can anyone tell me why the characters decided to defy fate, that isn't meta bullshit, and actually relies on the characters experiences and personalities to inform their decision?

It's more likely they just took action as they went along, encouraged and directed by Aerith.

As you pointed out in that gaslighted conversation with Mako, outside of possibly Aerith, the team really had no idea what to expect once they stepped through that cloudy portal. Ostensibly, they were going to stop Sephiroth, and Aerith vaguely alluded to them changing "more than fate" if they went forward.

As far as any of the others are aware, they're just going through that portal because they know Sephiroth needs to be stopped. They can only assume, based on what Aerith is telling them, that Sephiroth's intentions are fate's intentions -- however confusing that becomes in light of the Whispers reviving Barret after Seph murdered him.

Once they're past the portal, there's not really any going back. Nothing much that can be done except to listen to the only one in their group who seems to have a clue about what's going on or what they should do, and she's encouraging them to blank the page. So, they do.

Which is also what Sephiroth wanted.

We know Aerith knew more than she was letting on, so we're left to wonder whether she was unwittingly playing into Sephiroth's hands herself or whether she wanted to remove fate from the equation for similar reasons to Sephiroth, just with opposite (i.e. benevolent) intentions.

 

[Roger]

It's more likely they just took action as they went along, encouraged and directed by Aerith.

As you pointed out in that gaslighted conversation with Mako, outside of possibly Aerith, the team really had no idea what to expect once they stepped through that cloudy portal. Ostensibly, they were going to stop Sephiroth, and Aerith vaguely alluded to them changing "more than fate" if they went forward.

As far as any of the others are aware, they're just going through that portal because they know Sephiroth needs to be stopped. They can only assume, based on what Aerith is telling them, that Sephiroth's intentions are fate's intentions -- however confusing that becomes in light of the Whispers reviving Barret after Seph murdered him.

Once they're past the portal, there's not really any going back. Nothing much that can be done except to listen to the only one in their group who seems to have a clue about what's going on or what they should do, and she's encouraging them to blank the page. So, they do.

Which is also what Sephiroth wanted.

We know Aerith knew more than she was letting on, so we're left to wonder whether she was unwittingly playing into Sephiroth's hands herself or whether she wanted to remove fate from the equation for similar reasons to Sephiroth, just with opposite (i.e. benevolent) intentions.

For that reason I feel there's no use pointing to Sephiroth killing Barret and then being resurrected by the Whispers for what implies. Sephiroth did that in full knowledge of the fate, the whispers and their abilities and purpose, no whispers, no reason to bait them into fighting fate and Sephiroth leaves Barret be, in all likelyhood.

 

[Wol]

I don't think I'll really be able to judge the ending until I know its full ramifications. Some things have me extremely happy and excited, some things have me a little concerned. We'll see I guess.

considering Nojima's latest works my faith is at the lowest right now.

of course in the end, maybe it wont be that big of a deal, all the stuff might be linked to the lore in an intelligent manner without plot holes and it won't deviate too much of the original.

but right here it was done badly and those elements feel unnecessary given how much of this universe they still have to depict, and how much of that is complex already (especially for newcomers).

Introducing AU and magical light particles changing past and future is 80% red flag, because the rules and stakes of your own world becomes fragile and you can justify literally anything happening... Its the perfect recipe for bad storytelling.

 

[Jairus]

@Jairus : I have reasons for not wanting Jessie alive, the primary one being that it cheapens her death and it would cheapen any death - namely Aerith's afterwards because if Jessie comes back, why not Aerith? I noticed that Biggs' death wasn't as much a big deal as Jessie's, Cloud even implies that help can come at time to save him while Jessie had Tifa crying for her, Cloud aknowledging her, etc. Imagine seeing her suddenly "oops sorry I wasn't dead in the end", it's way too bizarre and it cheapens her own death like hell, and no one dying afterwards would have the same impact on the player because once a certain NPC who was dead was not in the end.

As for how why would someone leave a memento of Jessie in Biggs' room, well, he's at the orphanage, so I'm quite sure they know him well, probably knew her too. They grew up together, so even if people don't know them, they know that those three were friends. And since Biggs was brought to the orphanage, it's quite certain that he was brought back by someone who knew him.

It's also to note that the Gold Saucer is the place where you meet up with Cait Sith for the first time (properly, at least), and I don't really see him fitting anywhere else because he's so WTF to me, so having Jessie + Cait Sith seems improbable to me.

Except you're forgetting that Jessie used to work at the Gold Saucer. So her knowing Cait isn't out of the realm of possibility. Also, she knows someone in Avalanche command. She's the only one of the trio with connections to the world outside Midgar, so logically, she's the one of them best suited to help Cloud and the others on their journey. Her glove was in the scene for a reason - visual storytelling demands that everything we see have a purpose. That includes her glove. Viewers would immediately think of her, see Biggs alive, and almost certainly come to the conclusion that since he's alive and her glove is there, maybe it's a sign that she's alive, too. Also, there are three pencils in the cup. Not two or four, but three. The same number as the members of the trio.

Cloud eventually decided Biggs and Jessie were dead, despite him going back to look for both of them - he and Tifa still thought there might be a chance to save her even after seeing what happened to her. But while they assumed she and Biggs were both dead, they were wrong about Biggs. So it stands to reason that, especially with the defeat of the Whispers altering events around them, that they could've been wrong about Jessie as well. There would've been no reason to have her glove on the dresser if she were truly dead, because the mere sight of it was bound to make people wonder if she's alive, and SE knows that.

If someone left her glove there as a memento, then why only one and not both? And why would they not wait for him to be able to see her body first before doing that? It doesn't make sense, and simply seeing her glove and Biggs alive and then thinking that Jessie might be alive too after that takes less thought and mental effort within that timespan than coming up with a more convoluted situation like what you're saying. SE's hinting at her survival - remember, the Whispers were around her when she threw the grenade, and with them gone, she'd have been free to escape the blast and not get hurt the way she was. Just like Zack who, with the Whispers gone, survived the assault that had originally killed him.

 

[Eerie]

It's not exactly a review, but Max Dood finished the game and after he beat it, he spoke about it a damn lot, chatting with people about theories and such - it's interesting to hear his train of thoughts!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I haven't played the ending because Motorball handed me my ass, and after reading this thread, i don't even want to.

 

[Teioh]

You've watched the ending though, right? Even if it was just the Shinra part?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Obsessive might be the applicable word.

 

[LNK]

We see Zack face an army and the Whispers, the whispers are vanquished and suddenly, Zack sees himself survive the battle, he's as surprised as the next guy, he grabs Cloud and goes. Now, there was an army of people trying to kill Zack and maybe someone is still alive that gets a shot of, maybe. Wedge is different, no one was even involved in his death that wasn't a whisper. Jessie likewise the whispers intercepted her grenade and made it detonate in her face. These two were killed by the whispers, no one else.

Either what we saw of Zack is an alternate timeline where he can live, or it's the Zack of the same timeline and we see the whisper disappear from this timeline retroactively, at which point it stands to reason that Wedge is fine and Jessie has a chance just like Biggs. Either way, it'd be very surprised if Biggs is the only person that benefits from fate being defeated.

From what I remember of Crisis Core ending, Zack survived the large onslaught of Shinra grunts, only to be gunned down by 3 of them shortly after. The same thing was shown in the remake, minus him being gunned down by the 3 grunts. The scene faded out before that. Based on that, I still think he's dead. But, until we get the next part, I can't say one way or the other.

 

[Roger]

From what I remember of Crisis Core ending, Zack survived the large onslaught of Shinra grunts, only to be gunned down by 3 of them shortly after. The same thing was shown in the remake, minus him being gunned down by the 3 grunts. The scene faded out before that. Based on that, I still think he's dead. But, until we get the next part, I can't say one way or the other.

In Crisis Core, the three are definitely part of the army that Zack fights itself, he fights till it goes dark and never managed to get back to Cloud.

EDIT: For that matter In Crisis Core, Cloud has already started being able to move again when Zack leaves to face the army, Zack never returns to discover this. With Zack carrying Cloud further, we might see both Zack and Cloud get gunned down as these soldiers were ordered to do, if indeed, three of them are about to appear out of the ether, having gone unnoticed and unscathed.

 

[LNK]

I think most people absolutely hated it, they're just… too tired to keep talking about it, or they're trying to rationalize their way through it.

I know my brain shuts down every time the ending is discussed in its finer details, which has made these last few pages even harder to follow Not that I feel a particular desire to dwell on it, to be honest.

The flip side to that, is there are people who like the ending, and are tired of talking about it with people who hated it

 

[youffie]

The flip side to that, is there are people who like the ending, and are tired of talking about it with people who hated it

I'm sure they are. It's what happens when you make or imply controversial changes: controversy happens.

But this is going be my last post on the matter. I don't want to drag people down because that also drags me down and I see no point in negativity, despite what might have transpired from some of my posts.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Just to briefly get off the ending itself, I did the motorcycle sequence last night and enjoyed fighting Motorball but didn't like fighting the enemies before him. Even enjoying it though, goddamn does that bike need to accelerate quicker. It didn't bug me too much in Chapter 4 (I think because I was just excited to ride a bike again) but it seems really counter-intuitive here. If I have to evade attacks precisely, why can't I move with precision?

I feel like Goldilocks when it comes to bike minigames in FFVII. The OG is too responsive and I always overshoot my target and struggle to line them up. The remake isn't responsive enough and I kept worrying my R2 button broke.

That said, I like that Red helped kill Motorball. He's been in two complete chapters and he's already jumped onto and bit two separate mechanical monsters. He should get paid by the second spent riding a giant enemy.

 

[LNK]

The age isn't really the problem, the issue is after talking to them for a few minutes, a lot of them haven't even played the original. ?‍

The game being crammed with Kingston Hearts nonsense is obviously a problem because this is supposed to be a modernisation and remake of Final Fantasy 7. ??‍

It seems to me like this was made for new fans rather than the original fans which made this game as popular as it was. I've heard so many friends who've had to endure me banging on about this title for literal decades now pick up the remake to see what the fuss is about, and have been quite stuck by how silly the ending is.

It's just shameless fan service from Sephiroth blah blah blah'ing from start to finish to "Watchmen Of Fate" hovering around for writers who have backed themselves into a corner.

I really hope TheLifeStream.net is brave enough to cover the ending and call it out for what it is. A lot of reviewers are sitting on the fence out of fear of upsetting their audience.

Not everyone has played Kingdom Hearts though (myself included).


I think it was made for both. We got all the main story points in the OG, carry over to the remake. It was just told differently, which is what SE said they were going to do. In my opinion, what we got in the remake, is much better than the initial Midgar section of the OG.


As long as people stay civil about it, I'm sure they wouldn't mind. Remember though, not everyone shares your opinion on that ending

 

[LNK]

I'm sure they are. It's what happens when you make or imply controversial changes: controversy happens.

But this is going be my last post on the matter. I don't want to drag people down because that also drags me down and I see no point in negativity, despite what might have transpired from some of my posts.

I'm sorry you feel like you'd be dragged down. I like talking about this game, but I see what you mean. A couple people have already said it, but at this point none of us can say what the ending means for the future. We just don't know for sure (which is what I think SE wanted)

 

[LNK]

Just to briefly get off the ending itself, I did the motorcycle sequence last night and enjoyed fighting Motorball but didn't like fighting the enemies before him. Even enjoying it though, goddamn does that bike need to accelerate quicker. It didn't bug me too much in Chapter 4 (I think because I was just excited to ride a bike again) but it seems really counter-intuitive here. If I have to evade attacks precisely, why can't I move with precision?

I feel like Goldilocks when it comes to bike minigames in FFVII. The OG is too responsive and I always overshoot my target and struggle to line them up. The remake isn't responsive enough and I kept worrying my R2 button broke.

That said, I like that Red helped kill Motorball. He's been in two complete chapters and he's already jumped onto and bit two separate mechanical monsters. He should get paid by the second spent riding a giant enemy.

I like how Red was included in those battles as well. Even though we didn't get to control him, it was nice to see that he wasn't just there

 

[AerithLives]

I haven't played the ending because Motorball handed me my ass, and after reading this thread, i don't even want to.

Go with those feelings. All they had to do was get off the bike and go "Sephiroth is still alive? I have to settle the score!" And roll the credits....
... But nope!

 

[LNK]

In Crisis Core, the three are definitely part of the army that Zack fights itself, he fights till it goes dark and never managed to get back to Cloud.

EDIT: For that matter In Crisis Core, Cloud has already started being able to move again when Zack leaves to face the army, Zack never returns to discover this. With Zack carrying Cloud further, we might see both Zack and Cloud get gunned down as these soldiers were ordered to do, if indeed, three of them are about to appear out of the ether, having gone unnoticed and unscathed.

That could be part of the minor changes SE is making though. They have obviously shown, that even with keeping main points, they didn't happen in the same exact way to the OG.

I do see your point of view. I can't say one way or the other until we know/see more

 

[LNK]

Go with those feelings. All they had to do was get off the bike and go "Sephiroth is still alive? I have to settle the score!" And roll the credits....
... But nope!

After battling Jenova and Rufus, that motorball fight would've been very anticlimactic though.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think they should have ended the game in Kalm, with Cloud battling Sephiroth in the Nibelheim reactor flashback. It could have ended on a cliffhanger....

 

[Wol]

Go with those feelings. All they had to do was get off the bike and go "Sephiroth is still alive? I have to settle the score!" And roll the credits....
... But nope!

Personally I would love if Rufus summoned Bahamut to chase you at the highway segment (you dont see villains using summons usually).

So you would have it chasing you till the end, plus fight it normally.

Then a small playable segment of the party leaving Midgar and seeing the outside world, while a mysterious character watches in the distance... Aerith is not the only Ancient alive.

There, already wrote a better fanfiction lol

 

[LNK]

I think they should have ended the game in Kalm, with Cloud battling Sephiroth in the Nibelheim reactor flashback. It could have ended on a cliffhanger....

I wouldn't have minded that as an ending. If SE was so adamant about the game ending at Midgar, they could've changed to make that flashback happen sooner.

And even though I liked the ending, I think it would've been better if the Sephiroth battle was like the one with Vader in Fallen Order

 

[Celes777]

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone find the 3 whispers weird? Their fighting style, and their identity?
I don't want to start a new timeline argument so feel free to ignore me

 

[Kain424]

It would seem the primary disappointment... or at least, focus of contention... is on the fact that most old school fans didn't just want another "version" of Final Fantasy VII. We already have about a dozen of those. What was wanted, after all the Compilation and spin-offs and various forms of media representing this game, was a DEFINITIVE Final Fantasy VII. And one can hand-waive all that with a pithy "yOu StiLl hAvE tHe oRiGinaL" type comment, but when that word... REMAKE... was said alongside the words "the PROMISE has been made", that was a pretty clear marking of understanding. This is decidedly not that.

THAT BEING SAID...

There exists a distinct possibility we are getting a definitive Remake. It's just that the ending to this part is some added fluff to ensure that happens. If the Whispers are revealed to be a kind of Planetary protection device, similar to the Weapons, and Sephiroth has merely tricked the party into defeating them, things could indeed still head toward the destinations we all know and love.

Zack's scene could very well be the Remake's writers trying to "correct" the scene we know from Crisis Core. It is a known fact some people didn't like how they turned Zack's final moments into this big, glorious self sacrifice. And indeed, this ending puts him and Cloud literally as we last saw them in the original game, shoulder to shoulder before Zack is slain.

It is possible, through this reading, that the beagle version of Stamp is the alternate version. The terrier would represent the original, reflecting that bit of dialog Barret has about how Shinra took a loyal (i.e. "faithful", as in faithful to the original) animal and used it for their own ends.

 

[Odysseus]

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone find the 3 whispers weird? Their fighting style, and their identity?
I don't want to start a new timeline argument so feel free to ignore me

Their battle bios say they're from the future, there to defend it from our party who are trying to alter it. There's been speculation about their identities, since one uses a sword, one uses guns, and one uses fists. Some people think they might be future versions of Cloud, Tifa and Barret, while others think they might be the remnants from advent children. This is another "who knows" sort of thing.