LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
The battle for the Sector 7 pillar is pretty bloody. Bodies strewn everywhere, people clearly dying when their helicopters crash etc....
SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Sure there are bodies everywhere, but aside from bruising and scraps, there wasn’t any rendered blood during that Chapter of the Remake, especially not from bullet holes.
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
With my extremely limited knowledge on rating systems, my guess is because even in the Uncharted games, they didn't show blood splattering when they were shot.Too lazy to look this up in detail, what I could find is it sold more in the west but US and Europe were grouped together in their official sales thingy.
However that would still leave us with the point that a) M ratings don't seem to hinder the video game industry from selling boatloads of copies regardless and b) that T-rated games can and have gotten away with more than what we see in Remake
So I still think Square could've absolutely gotten away with more even within the US T rating
Like, the Uncharted series lets me shoot hundreds of people in the face and still get a T but this game can't have a trail of actual blood? The impalement might have been pushing it maybe but blue goo on the floor is just...lame.
That being said, I'll take the smoke during the impalement over no effect at all. In Crisis Core they just had the sword sort of clip through Cloud and that's even dumber looking
I didn't notice the blood. I'm doing another play through right now, so I'll have to look for it this time
Last edited:
Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Noble
I wish there was somewhere I could bet against the current FF7 fan base, that the Advent children connection will be confirmed in part 2 If I could, I would put my money on it.
Im thinking, if the main three Wispers are Loz, Kadaj and Yazoo. Then the advent children connection would imply both Aerith that and Sephiroth probably just want a different future result than the what the Wispers desire that gave them shape. Aerith awareness will grow as she leaves from under the metal plate. And she will guide the gang to do things different than they did in the OG.
I know many want to deny any AC speculation, but in the end...
If I take a evidence based approach to my speculating. and say, "what of these two different things requires us to have the least amount of assumption." My personal arrival is that AC is a the vuage plot point getting a big reveal later.
Im thinking, if the main three Wispers are Loz, Kadaj and Yazoo. Then the advent children connection would imply both Aerith that and Sephiroth probably just want a different future result than the what the Wispers desire that gave them shape. Aerith awareness will grow as she leaves from under the metal plate. And she will guide the gang to do things different than they did in the OG.
I know many want to deny any AC speculation, but in the end...
If I take a evidence based approach to my speculating. and say, "what of these two different things requires us to have the least amount of assumption." My personal arrival is that AC is a the vuage plot point getting a big reveal later.
During the final chapter you fight three Whispers, Whisper Rubrum (translated to Red Whisper), Whisper Viridi (Green Whisper) and Whisper Croceo (Saffron Whisper). They are confirmed to be entities from a future timeline that manifested in the present day. You get this from assessing them, so time travel confirmed, that's not the debate. The question is who are they?
Someone wrote an article that the ending was meta and you are killing future Cloud, Tifa and Barret who believe they made the right choices and everyone else ran with it. But is that true?
The second theory I heard is that they are Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz from the future timeline (Advent Children) protecting their timeline because they don't exist without it. For those unclear on their back story. After Sephiroth defeat in OG Final Fantasy VII, still unable to be dispersed into the lifestream but having no body, Sephiroth tries to manifest himself without a body in the world. This fails and Kadaj is created instead. Kadaj is an incomplete Sephiroth. After Sephiroth finding out that he can do that he proceeds to create two more copies to assist Kadaj. Their goal was to merge Kadaj (Sephiroth will) with Jenova cells to recreate Sephiroth. Like Cloud and the cloaks Sephiroth will is manipulating them and they feel like they are doing it on their own so that they can be with "mother". Although Kadaj is a part of Sephiroth he considers himself a different being.
Anyway onto the question at hand.
Whisper Rubrum.
Fights with a sword arm manifested in his left arm. Kadaj fights with a sword in his left arm. Cloud does not.
Whisper Viridi.
Fights barehanded but in his right hand has a glove weapon. Loz carries a gun but fights most of his battles barehanded with a bulky metal glove weapon in his right hand.
Whisper Croceo.
Has two gun arms and is stated that it fights with guns to protect the future that gave shape to it. Yazoo, carries a single gun but on more than one occasion takes Loz gun and fights with two.
Important things to note is that all of their intel says that they "fight to protect the future that gave shape to it." If we are talking figuratively, the future doesn't shape someone, someone shapes the future. So I don't think they are talking about decisions. But if we are talking literally, the future can give shape to you if the future is someone failing and being forced to create you as a result.
I think it's also interesting to point out that the three whispers combine to form Whisper Bahamut, the one summon Kadaj uses against Cloud and the game at the end of Advent Children.
Someone wrote an article that the ending was meta and you are killing future Cloud, Tifa and Barret who believe they made the right choices and everyone else ran with it. But is that true?
The second theory I heard is that they are Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz from the future timeline (Advent Children) protecting their timeline because they don't exist without it. For those unclear on their back story. After Sephiroth defeat in OG Final Fantasy VII, still unable to be dispersed into the lifestream but having no body, Sephiroth tries to manifest himself without a body in the world. This fails and Kadaj is created instead. Kadaj is an incomplete Sephiroth. After Sephiroth finding out that he can do that he proceeds to create two more copies to assist Kadaj. Their goal was to merge Kadaj (Sephiroth will) with Jenova cells to recreate Sephiroth. Like Cloud and the cloaks Sephiroth will is manipulating them and they feel like they are doing it on their own so that they can be with "mother". Although Kadaj is a part of Sephiroth he considers himself a different being.
Anyway onto the question at hand.
Whisper Rubrum.
Fights with a sword arm manifested in his left arm. Kadaj fights with a sword in his left arm. Cloud does not.
Whisper Viridi.
Fights barehanded but in his right hand has a glove weapon. Loz carries a gun but fights most of his battles barehanded with a bulky metal glove weapon in his right hand.
Whisper Croceo.
Has two gun arms and is stated that it fights with guns to protect the future that gave shape to it. Yazoo, carries a single gun but on more than one occasion takes Loz gun and fights with two.
Important things to note is that all of their intel says that they "fight to protect the future that gave shape to it." If we are talking figuratively, the future doesn't shape someone, someone shapes the future. So I don't think they are talking about decisions. But if we are talking literally, the future can give shape to you if the future is someone failing and being forced to create you as a result.
I think it's also interesting to point out that the three whispers combine to form Whisper Bahamut, the one summon Kadaj uses against Cloud and the game at the end of Advent Children.
Last edited:
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
The whispers can travel through time yes, because they can exist through out all of time (since they are essentially 4th dimensional beings).
That’s not the same as confirming that the main characters have traveled through time and the current Remake narrative is a reset/loop/sequel due to in-universe post-AC/C time-travel.
That’s not the same as confirming that the main characters have traveled through time and the current Remake narrative is a reset/loop/sequel due to in-universe post-AC/C time-travel.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
But why would Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo fight on behalf of the planet's future?
"My brothers and sisters who share mother's cells will all assemble, and together we'll take revenge on the planet!"-Kadaj, Advent Children
Why would that guy, be the choice for the planet to use to defend it's proper future, and why would he go along with it?
Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo are avatars of Jenova and Sephiroth. Specifically, remnants created from Sephiroth's will/consciousness. They represent his ego and intentions, so why would they be subject to the planet, let alone assist it?
The ambiguous 3 Arbiters of Fate could match those 3 dudes, but it just makes no sense thematically or contextually.
"My brothers and sisters who share mother's cells will all assemble, and together we'll take revenge on the planet!"-Kadaj, Advent Children
Why would that guy, be the choice for the planet to use to defend it's proper future, and why would he go along with it?
Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo are avatars of Jenova and Sephiroth. Specifically, remnants created from Sephiroth's will/consciousness. They represent his ego and intentions, so why would they be subject to the planet, let alone assist it?
The ambiguous 3 Arbiters of Fate could match those 3 dudes, but it just makes no sense thematically or contextually.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
That still doesn't make sense.
They're in essence, Sephiroth. They're manifestations of his will. Why would they work against him and his ambitions?
They're in essence, Sephiroth. They're manifestations of his will. Why would they work against him and his ambitions?
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Considering how muddled and vague the last chapter chapter is (and since Sephiroth is the one who created the portal to the pocket dimension for the Harbinger boss fight) lack of thematic sense isn’t the best defense against theorizing meaning.
Heck it could be that the designs and assess descriptions of the 3 sub-bosses are meant to references/homages and nothing else beyond that in terms of plot relevance. Rule of Cool I think influences developers choices more than we might care to admit.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
My personal opinion is that there's zero symbolic significance to Whisper Rubrum, Viridi and Coreco. I think they are just "Rule of Cool." Their names are simply Latin colors, and when they combine together, they create a unique Bahamut. Strange, interesting and completely without any symbolic consistency.
So yeah. There's literally no symbolic significance carried by them. They're colored warriors who use similar weapons to 3 of the main characters.
Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo being candidates makes no thematic sense, or logical narrative sense. They share those Remnant's weapons, that's true. But having them in that situation is not something that threads coherently aside from visual cues.
So yeah. There's literally no symbolic significance carried by them. They're colored warriors who use similar weapons to 3 of the main characters.
Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo being candidates makes no thematic sense, or logical narrative sense. They share those Remnant's weapons, that's true. But having them in that situation is not something that threads coherently aside from visual cues.
Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Noble
Why then can cloud fight against sephiroth's will?
Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo may feel they are there own people that got manipulated.
If they are the entities from a future timeline that have manifested in the present day. That fight with a sword/gun/fist to protect the future that gave shape to it. That would make sense. But furthermore would imply that they are not the only arbiters and that not all the arbiters may want the same thing outside of existing. And Could explain the speradicness of who they do or don't help.
At least it makes sense to me.
Was it not RedXiii that said they are from the planet. this is the same guy who was wrong about the 500 year later vision... Maybe the planet will is working with these future manifestations because after Holy, the may planet feel that's the best bet to get rid of human pest. Idk.
I feel I see a connection in more than one way. I
Dont think it's just rule of cool.
Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo may feel they are there own people that got manipulated.
If they are the entities from a future timeline that have manifested in the present day. That fight with a sword/gun/fist to protect the future that gave shape to it. That would make sense. But furthermore would imply that they are not the only arbiters and that not all the arbiters may want the same thing outside of existing. And Could explain the speradicness of who they do or don't help.
At least it makes sense to me.
Was it not RedXiii that said they are from the planet. this is the same guy who was wrong about the 500 year later vision... Maybe the planet will is working with these future manifestations because after Holy, the may planet feel that's the best bet to get rid of human pest. Idk.
I feel I see a connection in more than one way. I
Dont think it's just rule of cool.
Last edited:
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Sorry, I didn't mean it was literally bloody. Just lots of dead bodies everywhere. That's why I don't understand why they couldn't have done the same with the route up to President Shinra's office in the Shinra building.
I'm a little unclear on why kids can't see blood, but whatever.
I'm a little unclear on why kids can't see blood, but whatever.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Red blood to be precise. Make it green, purple, orange/yellow or even robot oil and it automatically gets less scrutiny. It’s why Samurai Jack’s final season was the first time actual red blood was depicted in the final season since it aired during the Adult Swim hours instead of the CN hours. Ratings organizations are weird and arbitrary.
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
I'm definitely not refuting your theories. You make interesting points. But there is other evidence that proves theories opposite of yours.
We just don't know for sure what is going on right now
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
I might take you up on a bet. What exactly is your theory for Whisper Rubrum, Viridi and Coreco?
Scot-88
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Scot
The reason I originally assumed that the Whisper bosses were a reflection of Cloud, Tifa and Barret were due to how they manifested. The gang were back to back when they first appeared and they each faced the Whisper that resembled their battle style. It didn't feel like a coincidence. And after assessing I was pretty sure of the intent (as one can be anyway).
Scot-88
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Scot
Not sure personally. In my only full playthrough, Tifa and Barret came to my aid against Sephiroth so I couldn't be sure. I was working under the assumption that it was only the Sephiroth fight that changed but hopefully someone who had a different experience can shed light on this matter.
Lex
Administrator
I mean, even he struggles to do so. But Cloud is never a manifestation of Sephiroth in the same way that the three from AC are. Cloud is an actual person with Jenova cells - he has his own will. Kind of a big part of the plot of the OG
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
This is why I hated the Compilation. Those who can invent some sort of meaning from the vague, pompous monologing and potato chip bags can go on about how deep and brilliant the intricate web of narrative is. And those same people turn around and say "rule of cool" whenever they find something they can't retroactively justify, and tell us not to overthink things. Which is it?
Mako, I'm aware that I'm strawmanning you. Honestly I haven't agreed with a single thing you've said in 70+ pages of this.
Mako, I'm aware that I'm strawmanning you. Honestly I haven't agreed with a single thing you've said in 70+ pages of this.
Kain424
Old Man in the Room
I started out disagreeing with Mako here, but I have come to agree with his main point to a decent extent. I don't think the end represents a complete narrative change for the story going forward. I do, however, think it was messily done and probably they should have gone with a less is more approach that more closely reflected the original.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Just like in reality, symbolism is not omnipresent nor completely void in a work of fiction. It's a means for writers to creatively convey their intention, or state of mind in reference to their work. Every detail isn't an intricate web of symbolism or just a hodgepodge of random elements simply existing in isolation. Like all fiction, it's a mixture of both. Each to varying degrees.
To say it's an "invention" implies eveyrone's simply making it up, regarding either it's inclusion or justification. Where do you see that? And why are you acting as if ambiguous endings for FFVII, are exclusive to the Compilation? The game and story has always been top loaded in symbolism and ambiguity. Their inspiration from David Lynch has for better or worst, always been apparent.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Hence why I said it was probably just "Rule of Cool," but that doesn't mean it's all just symbolic nonsense.
However...
As I thought about it more... I sorta had a horrifying conclusion. The Red, Green and Yellow... Fighting as a team with Red as their leader, and.. Combining when they needed to get serious while fighting in a ruined city.... A combination that's a big giant dragon...
It... sorta sounds like some kind of tongue-in-cheek reference to Super Sentai/Power Rangers. Which are ubiquitous and highly popular... I dunno, could it be something that silly? But it made me think of the Axim Rangers from another Square title back in the day....