SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[cold_spirit]

I don't understand all the mental gymnastics over the Whisper trio. They're the manifestation of Cloud, Tifa, and Barret's fate. Spawned from Whisper Harbinger, the manifestation of fate itself. Is this not apparent when considering who they're matched against, their intel, and the theme of the ending (i.e. fighting fate)?

 

[Theozilla]

I don't understand all the mental gymnastics over the Whisper trio. They're the manifestation of Cloud, Tifa, and Barret's fate. Spawned from Whisper Harbinger, the manifestation of fate itself. Is this not apparent when considering who they're matched against, their enemy intel, and the theme of the ending (i.e. fighting fate)?

Because the three Whispers weapons don’t exactly match Cloud, Barret, and Tifa’s weapons and fighting style. The sword Whisper fights with a one-handed sword in its left hand (like Kadaj, while Cloud uses two-handed swords throughout the OG/Remake), the gunner Whisper fights with two guns (whereas Barret only has one gun, while Yazoo in AC would sometimes use two guns), the brawler Whisper has a big fist/arm add-on tool/attachment (while Tifa uses symmetrical gloves, while Loz used his fists with a big arm weapon attachment). Plus during the Whisper Harbinger itself resembles the silhouette of the upper half of Safer Sephiroth form, especially with the wing arm. Also during the Whisper boss fight many of the flashes/vision used footage directly from AC/C, so there’s a contextual association with the movie during that fight.
That’s why there is is still a non-consensus in what the three Whispers are meant to symbolize.
Or what the symbolism even means at all.

 

[Master Bates]

Let's throw in another theory:

The three Whispers are OG Biggs, Jessie, and Wedge.

 

[Theozilla]

I found another piece of evidence for the Whispers being meant to represent the Sephiroth remnants on Twitter, apparently the colors/elements could be references to the FF trading card game!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252042632722894849

EDIT: Though the twitter user might be mixing up the TCG with the Mobius Card game because unless there are some other cards cards in TCG that I don’t know about/can’t find the TCG cards have the Remnants as ice elements. But the Mobius Cards do have Yazoo and Loz as Wind and Lighting elements.
Though the Twitter user may have forgotten that Kadaj was actually an earth element in Mobius (though the Remake has no earth element, so maybe the Twitter user just associated the colors with each other). Anyways the parallel isn’t quite as neat as I originally thought but still interesting (especially if their point about the Whisper move sets resembling the Remnants fighting moves in AC/C is accurate).

 

[Makoeyes987]

.... That's fucking weird.

I could see that being 50/50. Coincidence or intentional.

That's admittedly a rather... Shocking alignment of color and elements.

But why? Why would they be those 3 Whispers be indicative of Remnants of Sephiroth??

Did Sephiroth somehow corrupt those 3 Arbiters of Fate before subsequently absorbing them? That's only anser I've got...

Wait.... Were them fusing into Whisper Bahamut an allusion to the Bahamut Tremor battle too...?

Dear God.

 

[pollenainne]

OMG! The more I read of this forum, the more I do not understand. People are making this so complicated. There are just endless possibilites. I have come to the point that I am ready to accept anything they throw at me. Come on SQNIX bring it!

 

[cold_spirit]

Because the three Whispers weapons don’t exactly match Cloud, Barret, and Tifa’s weapons and fighting style. The sword Whisper fights with a one-handed sword in its left hand (like Kadaj, while Cloud uses two-handed swords throughout the OG/Remake), the gunner Whisper fights with two guns (whereas Barret only has one gun, while Yazoo in AC would sometimes use two guns), the brawler Whisper has a big fist/arm add-on tool/attachment (while Tifa uses symmetrical gloves, while Loz used his fists with a big arm weapon attachment). Plus during the Whisper Harbinger itself resembles the silhouette of the upper half of Safer Sephiroth form, especially with the wing arm. Also during the Whisper boss fight many of the flashes/vision used footage directly from AC/C, so there’s a contextual association with the movie during that fight.

The Whisper trio's weaponry doesn't perfectly match Sephiroth's remnants either. As I'm sure you're aware, Loz wields the Dual Hound and a Velvet Nightmare, yet this fact gets brushed aside. Whisper Harbinger has a chaotic design and could look visually similar to, say, Omega if you wanted it to. AC/C scenes are likely used because the equivalent scenes from the OG would look crude and jarring next to the photorealism of the remake. Sephiroth visually absorbs the Whispers after the party defeats Whisper Harbinger, why would Sephiroth dip his toes in off-screen beforehand to corrupt it? I guess I just don't understand how this theory came to be when it's more thematically consistent and logical for the Whisper trio to represent the party.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They match the Remnants of Sephirtoh waaaay more than Cloud, Tifa and Barret's.

Rubrum is left-handed, uses a one-handed sword, and fights with quick slashes and instant combos. Kadaj's similarity goes without saying.

Viridi uses thunder magic, has pile-bunker fists and attacks relentlessly. Loz's dual hound is a pile-bunker fist weapon... That uses lightning magic to stun those he hits with it.

Corceo uses two gun-like weapons. Yazoo uses two guns, the Velvet Nightmares.

None of the Whispers match Cloud, Tifa and Barret's fighting styles at all. They have vaguely similar weapons but they're different in execution and design. There's zero shape resemblance either; if they wanted to make "anti" versions of Cloud, Tifa and Barret they'd be more obvious, and not have something like Rubrum using their left hand, to wield a one-handed weapon that's not even the shape of the Buster Sword. The fact Sephiroth is also consistently identified with left-handedness is intentional.

The fact they fuse into Bahamut doesn't seem to be just a random freak occurrence now. It's at the very least, an allusion.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sephiroth visually absorbs the Whispers after the party defeats Whisper Harbinger, why would Sephiroth dip his toes in off-screen beforehand to corrupt it?

I think it was @X-SOLDIER who suggested that the planet's will has probably been tussling with Sephiroth's the entire game, and so a) the black-cloaked appearance of the Whispers is due to his influence even though they're still resisting him; and b) Rubrum, Viridi, and Croceo carry the traits he imparts when splitting himself into three.

I also recall Nomura once explaining (in the "Reunion Files" book) that Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz were originally intended to merge when Sephiroth's resurrection occurred, but the developers decided it looked too silly.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Living in their world must be a non-stop mind-trip.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think it was @X-SOLDIER who suggested that the planet's will has probably been tussling with Sephiroth's the entire game, and so a) the black-cloaked appearance of the Whispers is due to his influence even though they're still resisting him; and b) Rubrum, Viridi, and Croceo carry the traits he imparts when splitting himself into three.

Yup! That's my latest bit over in another thread where I'm trying to dissect as many cross connections between the OG, Compilation, and Remake to see what I can infer from the enemy designs.

Hopefully I'll have some more time to dig around at this stuff in the next couple days, since I think that there's still some big stuff to be looked at, especially around Jenova Dreamweaver that I haven't had time to really pour over yet.




X

 

[cold_spirit]

None of the Whispers match Cloud, Tifa and Barret's fighting styles at all. They have vaguely similar weapons but they're different in execution and design. There's zero shape resemblance either; if they wanted to make "anti" versions of Cloud, Tifa and Barret they'd be more obvious, and not have something like Rubrum using their left hand, to wield a one-handed weapon that's not even the shape of the Buster Sword. The fact Sephiroth is also consistently identified with left-handedness is intentional.

The fact they fuse into Bahamut doesn't seem to be just a random freak occurrence now. It's at the very least, an allusion.

Conversely, if they wanted to parallel Sephiroth's remnants, they'd be more obvious about that too. Kadaj's weapon is a dual katana. Rubrum's weapon resembles a broadsword. Again, Loz comes equipped with a pile bunker and a gun. Yazoo only has one gun.

Bahamut appears three times in the OG. Two times in CC. Once in AC. Now two more times in 7R. Basically, Bahamut is a very commonly used summon/boss in VII's world, to the point of monotony.

Additionally, I've yet to hear how the theory is more consistent with the ending's theme.

 

[Glaurung]

Oooookay. Didn't read the thread (my, this one is long compared to the others ), but here I go.

My first impression when I watched the arbiters is that... they pulled a Kingdom Hearts on us. As you defeat them they basically told us that we were ditching one by one all the iconic scenes from the OG, so I think they intend to carry on the story as a blank slate where everything is possible.

Then the included Sephiroth and Cloud's final duel in the Northern Crater. It was... interesting.

And that's it. It was spectacular and beautiful and I very much enjoyed it. What I'm yet to get my head around the concept of the Whispers and what happens with the timeline. Also, the fact that they seemed to have used the concept of timey-wimey from FFXIII-2, according to which, if you changed the future, the past also changed to accomodate.

Anyway, Zack seems to survive and there are hints that Avalanche also does (crossing my fingers on that), so yeah, we are in for a wild ride.

 

[Shademp]

Fuck this fucking 90%-great, 100%-death-of-a-dream game I'm being drawn back to it

FUCK

It's like getting back to a toxic relationship

HECK

 

[ForceStealer]

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

I'd say this was my least favorite chapter by far. I didn't know how anyone would go about making the end of just a midgar section feel satisfying, so it wasn't a huge surprise. It bugs me when things started going a bit too crazy and all of a sudden a sword that can't clear a door frame in chapter 3 is slicing effortlessly through thick chunks of highway.

Ending bosses were uninspired and if I am going to be forced to fight Seph already, at least give him some crazy looking 3rd and final form.

I have no clue where things could go from here, but I'm still hoping we don't stray from the path too far. If they are going to go alternate timelines and realities, I would really like them to finish the story as close to the OG as possible first. Then if they want to do spin-offs and alternate realities later, go nuts.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

I spent so much free time fanboying over this game for the last 9 months that I started getting depressed as soon as I beat it. It dominated my thoughts for so long I almost feel like I've lost a friend in some weird way.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You pretty much perfectly summed up how I feel, Shademp.
I really thought I was getting over my obsession with this world and its people until this Remake came out. And this installment is only the beginning of a rollercoaster of hope and fear, joy and disappointment, that may last the rest of my life.

 

[oty]

Ending bosses were uninspired and if I am going to be forced to fight Seph already, at least give him some crazy looking 3rd and final form.

Ehh, I dont know about that. The whole point of this fight is that its different from the final fight of the original game. You are fighting crazy, insane, Sephiroth that even uses spells like Thundaga. It's the one thing we never did in the original and gains some points because of that

This is why I hated the Compilation. Those who can invent some sort of meaning from the vague, pompous monologing and potato chip bags can go on about how deep and brilliant the intricate web of narrative is. And those same people turn around and say "rule of cool" whenever they find something they can't retroactively justify, and tell us not to overthink things. Which is it?

I think we are talking about too much different things. Normally, the characters and specially what they say cant be 100% commanded by the Rule of Cool too many times over. Cool doesnt bring any character development and doesnt really push the story forward, so yeah. If the characters spills too much nonsense all the time, it generally sucks.

Enemy designs however, dont operate in that kind of ruleset. They are almost 100% of the times influenced by Rule of Cool, since that's kind of their point. No one wants to fight a lame enemy. And the inspiration comes from a many many places, specially in the enemy department where not only you need to make it interesting, you can go crazy as you'd like depending on the context.

Long story short, there are hundred thousands enemies that have their own little story behind them. You can call them the developer's headcanons if you will. I think the 3 Whispers are exactly that.

 

[Knights of the Round]

I haven’t read every single post in this thread (who has?) but... an observation based on the theory of the 3 whispers representing your party.

I found it interesting that the game lines you up with Cloud against the left-hand sword wielding one each round, without fail. I don’t recall every single event that took place (it was 4am before I finished my second run-through of it last night) but I was looking closely last night to see if this is hinted at, and it certainly seems to me like it is, and that they're meant to represent your party.

 

[Knights of the Round]

This whole thing's stupid.
Let's keep goin'!

I’m going, going, GONE and I’m leaving the thinking to you!

 

[Glaurung]

One question, and it's about the only thing about the ending that I didn't get. Sephiroth says: "Seven seconds until the end. Think you can handle that?" Or something like that. Anyone knows what he's talking about?

 

[oty]

Theoretically, he is refering to the situation he took Cloud and the gang to - the world 7 seconds before Meteor hits aka the end. There are a lot of nuances and implications behind it tho.

 

[Dark and Divine]

@Tetsujin provided this useful piece of information some pages ago...

Saw this on reddit:

So...that's the seven seconds?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Here's what I now think about Aerith and her future death.

As a Cetra, she's characterised by an ability to talk to the Planet, and since the Planet determines its own fate, she has some ability to see the future. She has foreseen her death. However, she has chosen to regard fate as merely a set of possibilities, not 'set in stone'. The death she has forseen is something that might happen to her. We repeatedly hear her saying that even if you think an event is unavoidable, you have to do everything in your power to fight it. For example, she seems to "know" that the plate will fall, but she is absolutely 100% determined to regard that fate as merely a possibility, which her friends might be able to overturn.

So when she goes alone to the Forgotten Capital, she doesn't go as a willing sacrifice. She goes determined to cheat fate, and believing that she can. Forewarned is forearmed, after all. She goes believing she's strong enough to defeat Sephiroth.

However, she's wrong.