SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[SailorStarDust]

I haven't read this thread (it's so long!) so I'm sorry if it was discussed already, but am I the only one who took chapter 18 as quite straightforward? It's not like we did a frame by frame analysis, Eva-style (sweating profusely) on our second playthrough....My thoughts and speculations thus far. For simplicity's sake, too, this keeps OG motivations in mind. I just find fans immediately jumping the gun to "Oh, it's timeline fuckery!" is silly (hell, even Eva Rebuild show restrain where potential timeline shenanigans in Shin Eva/Thrice Upon a Time will be a self-contained loop and not related to NGE-verse).

Perhaps it was mentioned beforehand but Sephiroth's "7 seconds until the end" is referring to the Planet destroyed by Meteor (this is mentioned as much in the Story/Chapter summary which you can view from Map mode). Sure, you could take the line as before Aerith dies, or Cloud delivering the final blow in their Disc 3 mental battle, but eeeeeeh. Still, Sephy's use of 俺 (ore) rather than his arrogant post-breakdown 私 (watashi) was interesting. He still wants to manipulate Cloud as always, but on....amicable terms? The best manipulation tactic out there, for the master to his favorite puppet, IMO. Sephiroth and Aerith both have quite a bit of Lifestream (seemingly) knowledge this go around, compared to their OG counterparts, so yeah. (But even if, say, Aerith can vaguely sense her death in the future, she still doesn't necessarily understand what Holy is or how to unlock it.)

I think the Feelers (Whispers) representing our "Team No Train" trio or Sephiorth's triplets are equally likely, so I'm kinda shrug emoji on that end.
Regardless of who they represent, they're all gone and dead now, since the Party literally killed Fate. Doing so is playing exactly into Jenova/Sephiroth's hands, regardless of if Aerith living works in his favor ( = she can't help Holy from the Lifestream, meaning Meteor can freely do as he wishes). And whether or not the Feelers were unintentionally showing the Party only half the story of future flashes (Red alone before we see his cubs, Aerith dying but no Planet saved, Meteor summoned but not its destruction) or it was Jenova manipulating things, well, things'll be interesting.

On that note, too, Kitase's "bad end" scenario of the OG finale has interesting merit especially now. What the Whispers wanted to prevent? Or ensure happen? Will we see Minerva stepping in eventually? How will things play out this time around when the Weapons are on a rampage after Meteor's cast? And because in Remake-verse, the Wutai War never properly ended, perhaps Rufus will start it back up? That'll certainly piss off Yuffie, and add more drama to the plot!

Biggs, I think in the ending (Sector 7's clearly destroyed with the shot of the plates, dunno know why fans think otherwise) feels like his "life was traded": He's alive at the cost was Wedge (thrown out the window) and Jessie (her gloves and bandana as a memento). I'm a little nervous about what his being alive entails when looking back on Chapter 6. Heidegger apparently kept Biggs' doors on lockdown/captured him(?) before "returning him to the wild". So what does it all mean? Did Biggs actually strike a deal with Shinra or the old Avalanche guard? My heart would probably break.

The grand finale of Aerith sensing Zack and vice-versa felt like viewing the past (we even have the white anime-style backgrounds to boot), so perhaps Zack is still alive? Maybe Zerith get their Reunion in life, rather than death? Will Sephiroth kill Zack in place of Aerith so poor Cloud unknowingly continues his pre-Lifestream reveal charade? It'd be twistedly perfect! And/or will Aerith sacrifice herself to save the Planet? It's not that she had to die (as New Threat mod beautifully shows, she helps aid the Party even as CloTi under the Highwind still unfolds) or wanted to die, but...It'll be interesting. I've always wondered as another twist for Remake, if Cloud would be the one to kill her this go around (before in OG Jenova does the work herself) though that would completely break him if so. Or, maybe Aerith will die in North Crater like that scrapped (coding, I think) area where her BGM plays....

I know people love using the chips bag as evidence of different timelines, but the bag also says "original" on it, which fits Zack the puppy quite well, in contrast to Cloud. Shinra could easily change marketing of their merchandise as they freely wish. I just wonder if Zack's been captured (Shinra? The major Avalanche faction? Wutai troops?) or ends up dying elsewhere—or did he have to leave Cloud in Sector 7 for reasons unknown before getting out? I cannot wait until Part 2 since IMO this game was very carefully thought out.

As a game that introduces Midgar and expansions on the world and characters, I was seriously mindblown by the fan service, BGM, and character moments. But this blame game of Kitase vs Nomura vs Nojima is frankly ridiculous when as an entire team, they were making these decisions together (and replaying VII to make sure they understand the concepts). It's just wait and see to how things'll play out for good or crappy, in the end.

 

[Eerie]

Thinking about it, I don't see how Zack could be still alive. Zack has a Cloud problem, i.e. he knows him way too well. If he was still alive, Cloud's persona would be immediately seen through by the party, and who knows what effect this would have on Cloud? Sephiroth is the one who ultimately breaks Cloud, by showing everyone that he is not a SOLDIER, telling everyone how he is a copy - and Tifa, being as lost as she is with her memories of that time, cannot help Cloud as that moment. If you have Zack alive, you cannot have this breaking moment for Cloud, that's the major problem to me when people hope to see Zack (or even to see him being playable).

 

[Kain424]

I'd say it's pretty clear the three whispers represent mirror versions of our main party. And I mean that fairly literally. In a mirror image, things are the same, yet reversed. Cloud would be left-handed, Barret's gun arm would be on the other side. You get the idea. When they appear, the whispers swirl through the party, circle them, and come out posing opposite each party member they represent. It's fairly clear.


*edited to add they drive this home, again, in the second stage of the fight as well

Now, let's look at the ending itself. What does it set up? If we were talking alternate timelines or some such continuity fuckery, we would expect everything to be set up in a different place. But no. We get Rufus as the new president. We get Hojo gleefully laughing about Jenova (and likely his Reunion Theory). We get Marlene still with Elmyra. Our party is about to set out on the "hunt" for Sephiroth. This all looks to be set up for the primary events we are all familiar with. No need for much speculation.

 

[Wol]

View attachment 5670

I'd say it's pretty clear the three whispers represent mirror versions of our main party. And I mean that fairly literally. In a mirror image, things are the same, yet reversed. Cloud would be left-handed, Barret's gun arm would be on the other side. You get the idea. When they appear, the whispers swirl through the party, circle them, and come out posing opposite each party member they represent. It's fairly clear.

Now, let's look at the ending itself. What does it set up? If we were talking alternate timelines or some such continuity fuckery, we would expect everything to be set up in a different place. But no. We get Rufus as the new president. We get Hojo gleefully laughing about Jenova (and likely his Reunion Theory). We get Marlene still with Elmyra. Our party is about to set out on the "hunt" for Sephiroth. This all looks to be set up for the primary events we are all familiar with. No need for much speculation.

But wait, how fighting their past selfs would ensure their existence? If the Whispers killed the party they would cease to exist, by logic.

 

[oty]

I mean, you could say that about the entire ending. The Whispers are seemingly out of control, and either knowingly or unknowingly hell bent on taking us out, probably because we are also killing it.

 

[Kain424]

That's sort of a gameplay/storyline paradox. But I think the Whispers are less trying to kill the party than to prevent the timeline from being changed. They appear as the party, as a warning, but the party does not heed the warning and kills the Whispers anyway.

 

[Glaurung]

Thinking about it, I don't see how Zack could be still alive. Zack has a Cloud problem, i.e. he knows him way too well. If he was still alive, Cloud's persona would be immediately seen through by the party, and who knows what effect this would have on Cloud? Sephiroth is the one who ultimately breaks Cloud, by showing everyone that he is not a SOLDIER, telling everyone how he is a copy - and Tifa, being as lost as she is with her memories of that time, cannot help Cloud as that moment. If you have Zack alive, you cannot have this breaking moment for Cloud, that's the major problem to me when people hope to see Zack (or even to see him being playable).

I have no idea, but these are the guys who introduced time mechanics in FFXIII-2 on which if you changed the future, it changed the past instead of the far future. I expect anything at this point, even the introduction of some dude clad in a dark armor and a giant sword (and a purple tiger print bandana) with the mission of keeping the timeline intact

Things get complicated when you introduce time paradoxes.

 

[Kain424]

Things get complicated when you introduce time paradoxes.

Yeah, I agree. Too complicated. Which is why I wish they hadn't brought it up. But I don't expect to hear more about timeline paradoxes and whatnot going forward.

 

[Wol]

I have no idea, but these are the guys who introduced time mechanics in FFXIII-2 on which if you changed the future, it changed the past instead of the far future. I expect anything at this point, even the introduction of some dude clad in a dark armor and a giant sword (and a purple tiger print bandana) with the mission of keeping the timeline intact

Things get complicated when you introduce time paradoxes.

XIII-2 made use of one fixed real timeline, any change rewrites the same timeline up and down, instead of fragmenting itself in multiple parallel dimensions.

Fortunately that fuckery ends in a closed arc, with dire consequences in LR though.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Zack appearing in the end is most likely a sign of future DLC content after the last part of the remake is released.

I can see it now. "FFVII - Travelers of the Lifestream". It will depict Aerith and Zack as a spiritual power couple fighting Sephiroth's influence in the Lifestream while Cloud and the others fight him physycally.

Spoiler

 

[Wol]

Zack appearing in the end is most likely a sign of future DLC content after the last part of the remake is released.

I can see it now. "FFVII - Travelers of the Lifestream". It will depict Aerith and Zack as a spiritual power couple fighting Sephiroth's influence in the Lifestream while Cloud and the others fight him physycally.

Spoiler

Bingo

 

[SailorStarDust]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if that ends up happening, haha.

 

[Kain424]

Totally possible, I guess. And, honestly, if they want to add that kind of crap, it might as well be optional DLC that i can skip if I want.

 

[Wol]

I think the ideal scenario is, you get to play as Zack for a while in a dungeon-like segment, everything seens fine and then.. he gets killed in another tragic way.

Get trolled tumblr users.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Conversely, if they wanted to parallel Sephiroth's remnants, they'd be more obvious about that too. Kadaj's weapon is a dual katana. Rubrum's weapon resembles a broadsword. Again, Loz comes equipped with a pile bunker and a gun. Yazoo only has one gun.

Bahamut appears three times in the OG. Two times in CC. Once in AC. Now two more times in 7R. Basically, Bahamut is a very commonly used summon/boss in VII's world, to the point of monotony.

Additionally, I've yet to hear how the theory is more consistent with the ending's theme.

It also helps to look at the elemental nature of the three of them:

• Whisper Rubrum absorbs Fire: Kadaj uses a magic attack that's explosive.
• Whisper Viridi absorbs Lightning: Loz's Dual Hound delivers electrical shocks when it hits.
• Whisper Croceo absorbs Wind: Yazoo's attacks involve bullets or himself flying through the air.

It's also worth noting that the weapon Velvet Nightmare is solely listed as being Yazoo's, even though Loz does occasionally use one as well. We also specifically see Yazoo dual wielding them when he & Loz are fighting together. The fact that there are two of them already more closely matches Whisper Croceo has two of the guns more closely than Barret's single gun-arm.

It's stated that there are lots of versions of Bahamut in the game's lore. However, Bahamut has a direct thematic connection to the Sephiroth Remnants, and it doesn't have one to Cloud, Tifa, & Barret.

The purpose of having them parallel to Cloud, Tifa, & Barret is that it serves as a thematic connection that can map to our three starting heroes that makes sense in context solely within the framework of this game – but it can also become why the Sephiroth Remnants take on the form and appearances that they do when they eventually do manifest themselves, which is why we see parallels between both of them, but where the references lean slightly more towards the Remnants.

Insofar as the consistency with the ending's theme... I've been mapping out and dissecting all of the obsessive minutiae of those specifics over in another thread, but I have to say that them being linked to the entities who will eventually manifest as the Sephiroth Remnants is a lot more closely tied into everything with the ending than them being mirrors of Cloud, Tifa, & Barret. This is especially because there's no elemental connected to Ice but Aerith & Red XIII are also at Destiny's Crossroads. If we were getting the Whisper Harbinger creating avatars that mapped to the characters defying fate, we'd at least have a normal balance of all 4 Magic Elements and/or we'd see the Whisper Entities that appear in each fight sequence changing to match whichever three team members you had fighting against the Whisper Harbinger – since the team compositions can & do change.

The fact that it's ONLY those three, and those three elements is really what hammers it in.



X

 

[Kain424]

I have to say that them being linked to the entities who will eventually manifest as the Sephiroth Remnants is a lot more closely tied into everything with the ending than them being mirrors of Cloud, Tifa, & Barret. This is especially because there's no elemental connected to Ice but Aerith & Red XIII are also at Destiny's Crossroads. If we were getting the Whisper Harbinger creating avatars that mapped to the characters defying fate, we'd at least have a normal balance of all 4 Magic Elements and/or we'd see the Whisper Entities that appear in each fight sequence changing to match whichever three team members you had fighting against the Whisper Harbinger – since the team compositions can & do change.

The fact that it's ONLY those three, and those three elements is really what hammers it in.

I would say that the fact there are three of them, just as there are three Remnants, is the only real thing I see that works for that theory.

Since Sephiroth seems bent on having the party destroy the Harbinger, and yet Harbinger itself is trying to protect the timeline, there doesn't seem to be much reason why Harbinger would manifest future enemies of the party. Enemies that are remnants of Sephiroth. I just don't see the reasons there.

 

[LNK]

That's sort of a gameplay/storyline paradox. But I think the Whispers are less trying to kill the party than to prevent the timeline from being changed. They appear as the party, as a warning, but the party does not heed the warning and kills the Whispers anyway.

Your second sentence is exactly where I'm at. Just because we destroyed the whispers, doesn't mean we aren't going to get the same conclusion that we got in the OG. My guess is the fate of the characters was to actually lose to Sephiroth in the final battle and meteor would destroy the planet. But By beating the whispers, ensures that we'll destroy meteor and defeat Sephiroth at Northern Crater (just like the OG)

Other people are making a good case for them being the remnants, but I'm still drifting to them being Cloud, Barret and Tifa. But, we just don't know for sure. The anticipation of any info is what is making this difficult. No matter what, I have faith SE will be able to continue the good story that we have so far

 

[Knights of the Round]

View attachment 5670

I'd say it's pretty clear the three whispers represent mirror versions of our main party. And I mean that fairly literally. In a mirror image, things are the same, yet reversed. Cloud would be left-handed, Barret's gun arm would be on the other side. You get the idea. When they appear, the whispers swirl through the party, circle them, and come out posing opposite each party member they represent. It's fairly clear.

View attachment 5671
*edited to add they drive this home, again, in the second stage of the fight as well

Now, let's look at the ending itself. What does it set up? If we were talking alternate timelines or some such continuity fuckery, we would expect everything to be set up in a different place. But no. We get Rufus as the new president. We get Hojo gleefully laughing about Jenova (and likely his Reunion Theory). We get Marlene still with Elmyra. Our party is about to set out on the "hunt" for Sephiroth. This all looks to be set up for the primary events we are all familiar with. No need for much speculation.

Yeah, that's what I saw when playing it last night - thanks for the screens.

Unlike many, I have no problem w/ the Whisper battle(s), personally.. I thought the battles with them were epic, and I can appreciate the depth with them representing your party (and not just being some random bad guys with no tie-in). I was a very 'meh' on Sephiroth's extensive reveal and fight in my original play-through. However, on a second play last night it just hit me.. hey, I'm fighting him with Aeris. I got to team up on him with Aeris and kick his monkey &#^ for what he did to her in the OG.. take all my anger and revenge out on him. This fact was entirely lost on me in the blur of boss battles the first time around. How could I get mad at them for something like that? It's like they saw into my soul. It's what I wanted to do to him after what he did to her in the OG, and now she got to help me do it.

We have to stop thinking about this as the OG. It's more of a sequel, if anything, yet told in a way to still allow for us to experience familiar locations, characters and scenarios. The OG will forever exist as a separate entity, never to be explored in the same way again. Remake's a different animal. And that's fine with me, because as much as I love the OG I never want it to be irrelevant or a dated 'copy' of something.

Originally, I thought I wanted a 1:1 remake. In fact, I was out right pissed at the ending after my first play-through and threw the controller down in disgust. Yet, a few days went by and I had a moment of realization. The problem wasn't so much the game - it was my expectations, the pedastal I've had the OG up on for 23 years, and my refusal to let go of it. To open it up for additions, improvements or new adventures. I was protecting it in my mind like an overprotective parent.

This was an ongoing struggle within me during my first play-through. Around every corner, every gameplay element, every location and every plot point -- I was comparing it to the original. And every time it ventured even a little bit off the path I found myself becoming angry/disinterested. A second play-through revealed the game for what it really is which, IMO, is another masterpiece.

This was obviously a very divisive move for a game with the following that this one has, and they can obviously f&#^ this up in royal fashion if they don't do it right. Have to say, though.. with the love and care shown throughout the first iteration I tend to side with 'they'll get it right', at this point, and I'm really excited to see what lies ahead.

 

[Kain424]

Your second sentence is exactly where I'm at. Other people are making a good case for them being the remnants, but I'm still drifting to them being Cloud, Barret and Tifa. But, we just don't know for sure. The anticipation of any info is what is making this difficult. No matter what, I have faith SE will be able to continue the good story that we have so far

There's just no reason to believe they are Remnants. Remnants are manifestations of Sephiroth. The Whispers are manifestations of Harbinger, who acts on behalf of the Lifestream.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I would say that the fact there are three of them, just as there are three Remnants, is the only real thing I see that works for that theory.

Since Sephiroth seems bent on having the party destroy the Harbinger, and yet Harbinger itself is trying to protect the timeline, there doesn't seem to be much reason why Harbinger would manifest future enemies of the party. Enemies that are remnants of Sephiroth. I just don't see the reasons there.

The party defeats the Whisper Harbinger, and Sephiroth literally absorbs it in front of them. It's why his body is glowing purple when he shows up in front of Meteor. He's ACTUALLY still just chilling in the Lifestream in the Northern Crater, and now this is a power from the Lifestream and the Will of the Planet itself that he has taken control of because of the party's actions.

Sephiroth uses the power of the Harbinger to keep himself alive and refuse to just be a memory. When Geostigma manages to corrupt enough Lifestream, he's able to use that corrupted Lifestream to create the Remnants, and eventually manifest himself again like he did here.

This battle is setting those things up to be used later on.



X

 

[Kain424]

The party defeats the Whisper Harbinger, and Sephiroth literally absorbs it in front of them. It's why his body is glowing purple when he shows up in front of Meteor. He's ACTUALLY still just chilling in the Lifestream in the Northern Crater, and now this is a power from the Lifestream and the Will of the Planet itself that he has taken control of because of the party's actions.

Sephiroth uses the power of the Harbinger to keep himself alive and refuse to just be a memory. When Geostigma manages to corrupt enough Lifestream, he's able to use that corrupted Lifestream to create the Remnants, and eventually manifest himself again like he did here.

This battle is setting those things up to be used later on.



X

That's a possibility. If you throw out that Cloud knocks the Harbinger's power right back out of him before the "Edge of Creation" scene.

 

[Roger]

I would say that the fact there are three of them, just as there are three Remnants, is the only real thing I see that works for that theory.

Since Sephiroth seems bent on having the party destroy the Harbinger, and yet Harbinger itself is trying to protect the timeline, there doesn't seem to be much reason why Harbinger would manifest future enemies of the party. Enemies that are remnants of Sephiroth. I just don't see the reasons there.

I will offer the fact that Viridi supposedly fights with his barefists, yet while Croceo has two symmetrical gunarms, Viridi has this massive thing on at the end of one of his arms. It's hard to imagine what the idea there was without something like the Dual Hound of which it is an exaggerated form.

 

[Kain424]

I kinda like the idea they would foreshadow Advent Children this far back, but I just don't buy it. Why is it that when each of these are defeated, we get a glimpse of an event from the original game?

 

[ForceStealer]

I also just figured they were rough approximations of your party so that each one had an "equivalent" to fight against, and didn't put much more thought into it

 

[Knights of the Round]

What's getting me is the 'premonition or flashback' theories.

The 'brain zap' that Cloud has with Tifa in Nibelheim during the bombing mission while talking with Jessie happens the same way his brain zaps with Sephiroth do and the same as when he sees Aeris on the altar. Since Nibelheim was technically the past, are we to assume these are, indeed, flashbacks and not premonitions of what could happen? Or do we have both flashbacks and premonitions happening in the same manner?

It may be possible that what we're seeing, and what they're experiencing, is from an alternate timeline/reality, which is the reality we played through in the OG. Everything has happened, and we're in a 'time loop', of sorts. And the characters seem to be as confused as we are about wth is going on.

And within this newfound 'loop' we have a chance to do things differently. Defeating the whispers and revealing the memories as a way of becoming self-aware that that moment in time could be changing. As Nanaki said in the end-game "We're seeing a glimpse of tomorrow, if we fail here today."

If what Nanaki said is true, however, I guess they are premonitions and not memories.