SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Kratos]

Episode 9 was the opposite of the Remake - it was a boring, safe, and predictable product that sacrificed everything at the altar of nostalgia. It's basically a case study in how pleasing a fanbase as a baseline goal can go completely wrong.

That said: it's impossible to judge art objectively, but the closest I feel one can get is to look at whether or not a piece of art had the intended impact on the intended audience. If it didn't, it's unsuccessful, even if other people enjoyed it or it was enjoyed for other reasons (such as ironically). Kitase has been very up front about how he wanted the Remake to transmit the story of FFVII to a new generation, and if that was indeed the goal, I question how wise this course really was, since it present a difficult-to-parse scenario that does nothing but give off the idea that you have to have played the original to really get what the hell is going on. I believe they have made the story of FFVII harder to appreciate through this.

It's too early to say whether it will succeed in being an FFVII rebirth remembered as fondly as the original, but the deck is stacked against it.

 

[Noble0ne]

I'm keeping my hopes up for FF7r-2.

Overall, FF7r was a very good game for me. The things that urk me, are just

•the cliff hangers,

•ch 17 pacing (boy that dragged out),

•& ch18 bosses (Gant killed by defeting mini me's & having to fight sephiroth as end boss instead of him being placed in the shines HQ simulator or just a end cut scene). My assumption is that we're going to get 3 games with end boss Sephy/wisper overkill.

2 legitimate issues in a whole game ain't bad. (Cliff hamgers don't count... Worrysome but Dont count)

I can get with the other changes... Even if not the best execution)

 

[Firstone33]

All this stuff just makes you wonder what is gonna happen in second part of remake

 

[Firstone33]

I'm keep my hopes up for FF7r-2.

Over all, FF7r was very good game to me. The things that urk me, are just the cliff hangers, ch 17 pacing, & having to fight sephiroth as end boss instead of him being placed in the shines HQ simulator. My assumption is that we're going to get 3 games with end boss sephy overkill.

2 legitmate issues in a whole game ain't bad[/QUOTEmy honest opinion is that having more sephiroth is cool especially end fight cause in my view shows us that sephiroth threat is very real and him appearing several times shows that without actually spoiling his reveal too much but that is just me.

of course I only seen half the game and ending in Japanese dub and eng sub but from what I seen yes it is a very good game

 

[Theozilla]

Presuming the Remake is going to be a trilogy, the second installment is either going to end/climax at Aerith’s death or at the Northenr Crater when Meteor is summoned and the WEAPONs wake up. I am hoping for the latter, but the former can work well too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kitase has been very up front about how he wanted the Remake to transmit the story of FFVII to a new generation, and if that was indeed the goal, I question how wise this course really was, since it present a difficult-to-parse scenario that does nothing but give off the idea that you have to have played the original to really get what the hell is going on. I believe they have made the story of FFVII harder to appreciate through this.

It's too early to say whether it will succeed in being an FFVII rebirth remembered as fondly as the original, but the deck is stacked against it.

It's only difficult-to-parse because we aren't working with all of the available information or story right now. If after playing the entire game and it's contents it remains that way, then yes. That would be applicable. But we're not even there yet.

And time travel plots are not inherently more difficult to parse or understand, especially this generation. If that were the case, Dr. Who, Terminator, and the CW DC Universe tv shows would gain absolutely no new fans whatsoever

 

[Noble0ne]

They can't finish in two games... Heck, they might do 4.

They plan to make the next installments ps4 & 5 comparable... The majority of the GB space went to 4K renders and video this go. So considering the need to be shinny for ps5. They are not going to have much space, to be vastly more expansive than what they did with the first

 

[Noble0ne]

It's only difficult-to-parse because we aren't working with all of the available information or story right now. If after playing the entire game and it's contents it remains that way, then yes. That would be applicable. But we're not even there yet.

And time travel plots are not inherently more difficult to parse or understand, especially this generation. If that were the case, Dr. Who, Terminator, and the CW DC Universe tv shows would gain absolutely no new fans whatsoever

I think your right we need the full overlook...

But I somehow feel you can't quite get the wispers unless you played the O.G. and compilation stuff. Old fans know Kunsel, Kirie, the OG story, The CC end.(old stuff they pay homage to & reference hard)

If wispers are out to try protect prior compilation events, (dispite sephiroths remarks that they want to cause meteor or whatever, coz he's a decepticon). The current squad can choose to fight this fate stuff like they do. But,

Players of the old will be at a different cliff hanger to perceive this. Unlike player of the only the new who will speculate without this notion.

That's a fight just waiting to happen between old and new players.

Or maybe my theory is so of that again we need the whole over look like you say

 

[Theozilla]

I think it’s safe to say that the Remake will likely be finished within the PS5’s lifespan (i.e before the PS6 come out), or at least SE would like to do so. And Sony has been averaging about 7 years between each PlayStation generation. So I believe the Remake will likely be done within 6-7 years. I think three parts total for the Remake is totally doable, in such a scenario I would guess it would be about 3-3.5 years between each part.
If it is indeed more than three parts (which I still think is unlikely) I could maybe see it being 2-2.5 year gaps.

 

[Noble0ne]

T-T *prays for a back to back release every year*

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If anything, I mostly agree with the point that these changes hasn't changed the complete makeup of the FFVII story in full, and most likely won't for the next parts.

Yeah, I'll even agree with that as well in so far as the characters seem fully intact, meaningfully expanded, and the setting is so freakin' alive as a place for them to inhabit. Midgar is so full of character itself.

That said: it's impossible to judge art objectively, but the closest I feel one can get is to look at whether or not a piece of art had the intended impact on the intended audience. If it didn't, it's unsuccessful, even if other people enjoyed it or it was enjoyed for other reasons (such as ironically). Kitase has been very up front about how he wanted the Remake to transmit the story of FFVII to a new generation, and if that was indeed the goal, I question how wise this course really was, since it present a difficult-to-parse scenario that does nothing but give off the idea that you have to have played the original to really get what the hell is going on. I believe they have made the story of FFVII harder to appreciate through this.

It's too early to say whether it will succeed in being an FFVII rebirth remembered as fondly as the original, but the deck is stacked against it.

I really have to agree. Newcomers are going to strongly associate this fate and temporal manipulation shenanigans with FFVII, and that's just ... not what they should be taking away from it. In my less-than-humble opinion.

The point isn't even whether the metaphysics could allow for it. Obviously they can. Other FFs have time travel crap, and after the Dissidia games, literally any gymnastics of physics are plausible. That's not what I'm concerned with.

Themes and tone are what matter most with a setting, and I will almost assuredly go to my grave still insisting that these notions are incongruent with the themes and tone of the original FFVII.

Also, @Theozilla and @Makoeyes987 -- much as I'm trying to give your defenses of this narrative a chance, when the defense basically boils down to "I'm sure there's no actual time travel here; just vaguely defined entities that simultaneously exist across multiple time periods, and someone unsuccessfully attempting to change the past" ... I'm just left over here cringing and wondering where the fuck anything to do with FFVII is in all that. =P

Not that I'm saying it's going to be bad, mind you, or even that I'm going to dislike it. I almost certainly will still love this story. I just don't think it's FFVII.

 

[Theozilla]

Eh, that’s fine to think that such elements/themes don’t mesh well with FFVII. I am more just concerned/against the alarmist proclamations that the Remake is actually a pseudo-sequel to AC/C and/or that plot is going to be unrecognizably changed (i.e. Zack and Aerith won’t die/are actually alive).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, sure, we really shouldn't jump on promotion of the semi-sequel interpretation until we know more (and even if we now really expect it). Just as a matter of accuracy, we need the whole context of what Sephiroth was up to.

 

[Firstone33]

Presuming the Remake is going to be a trilogy, the second installment is either going to end/climax at Aerith’s death or at the Northenr Crater when Meteor is summoned and the WEAPONs wake up. I am hoping for the latter, but the former can work well too.

Might be former if remake is following og story cause in chapter cloud meets aerith he has a vision of where she dies and her kneeling on altar and white materia falling out but nothing else so it is likely for us to assume the former

 

[rkss]

I remember Nomura said in an interview that complication is not canon to Remake but now we see footage of Advent Children in 7R.
Not sure what to make of it now.

 

[Theozilla]

Might be former if remake is following og story cause in chapter cloud meets aerith he has a vision of where she dies and her kneeling on altar and white materia falling out but nothing else so it is likely for us to assume the former

I’m not sure exactly what you are saying, both the latter and former scenario are events that occur in the OG, the Meteor summon scenario just occurs after Aerith’s death in the narrative, meaning more environments/locations/content would need to be included/developed in the second Remake installment.

I remember Nomura said in an interview that complication is not canon to Remake but now we see footage of Advent Children in 7R.
Not sure what to make of it now.

This has been mentioned before already, but that was from a French interview that was somewhat misunderstood. The context of that was in response to a question about whether the Compilation games would get ported into an all-in one HD release like the KH ReMixes. And Nomura was saying that SE did have the resources and/or desire to do so, and that the Remake wasn’t going be advertised as like part of Compilation because they weren’t going to be overly beholden to it. Not that the Compilation wasn’t canon anymore.

And Kitase himself last month has explicitly stated in interviews that the Compilation is canon and forms the basis canon of the Remake going forwards. The Red XIII clip was also not the only Compilation inclusion in the Remake, there have been many more. Most noticeably many characters from Nojima’s Turks Side Story novella.

 

[Theozilla]

Okay, this might be deleted off of YouTube soon, but this guy has the last 12 minutes of the Remake from the final playable boss battle (which is a three on one against Sephiroth, his party was Cloud, Aerith, and Barret, don’t know if that party composition is required or up to player choice) to the start of the credits. Guess the giant Arbiters of Fate heartless boss is the second to last boss fight or something.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Why does everything smell like copper?

 

[dunkindonato]

And Kitase himself last month has explicitly stated in interviews that the Compilation is canon and forms the basis canon of the Remake going forwards. The Red XIII clip was also not the only Compilation inclusion in the Remake, there have been many more. Most noticeably many characters from Nojima’s Turks Side Story novella

Also, in part 1 of "Inside Final Fantasy VII Remake" they explicitly said that Advent Children is at the core of the Remake.

 

[msia2k75]

I just read "Sephiroth is defeated".... that happening after the Midgar part.


I was a complete fool thinking they wouldn't do that, but yet they still did it.

 

[Theozilla]

I just read "Sephiroth is defeated".... that happening after the Midgar part.


I was a complete fool thinking they wouldn't do that, but yet they still did it.

I mean it’s just a gameplay feature that occurs after every boss is defeated in battle in the Remake, nothing special. The final playable boss fight is with Sephiroth (or technically Jenova’s body transformed into Sephiroth and being remotely controlled by him), so that’s what the victory caption is.

 

[trash panda]

+ The cosmic looking battleground where Cloud and Seph face off for the last time here in the remake reminds me of their final confrontation in the Northern Crater and I wonder if that is....what we are actually seeing...?

+ I see Sephiroth telling Cloud basically, "you have 7 seconds...what will you do with it"? And then suddenly we see Zack NOT getting killed at the end of FFVII. Did Cloud choose to go back and start over, right where Zack would have died? Which leads me to....

+ I see Zack looking up at Midgar surrounded by a strange aura. It looks like Zack is seeing, from the outside, what Cloud and Co. saw on the inside earlier (when Aerith was saying that passing through the strange commotion would change everything).



I am totally mind fucked....

 

[Makoeyes987]

+ The cosmic looking battleground where Cloud and Seph face off for the last time here in the remake reminds me of their final confrontation in the Northern Crater and I wonder if that is....what we are actually seeing...?

+ I see Sephiroth telling Cloud basically, "you have 7 seconds...what will you do with it"? And then suddenly we see Zack NOT getting killed at the end of FFVII. Did Cloud choose to go back and start over, right where Zack would have died? Which leads me to....

+ I see Zack looking up at Midgar surrounded by a strange aura. It looks like Zack is seeing, from the outside, what Cloud and Co. saw on the inside earlier (when Aerith was saying that passing through the strange commotion would change everything).



I am totally mind fucked....

Please see previous pages for explanation regarding Zack. Please do not go and say that man is alive. He's not.

 

[Theozilla]

The cosmic background is definitely an homage to the battle of the center of the mind sequence from the OG, but it’s not the same as Sephiroth wins/disappears in this version.
And as Makoeyes987 and I have said before, it’s not that Zack is alive, it’s that the Crisis Core and OG versions of Zack’s death are being melded together so that the big battle occurs, but Zack being shot from behind while carrying Cloud can also occurs. The very last flashback scene occurs right when it’s starting to rain, i.e. the weather of the Living Legacy scene and Zack’s death.

 

[trash panda]

Please see previous pages for explanation regarding Zack. Please do not go and say that man is alive. He's not.