SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Lord Noctis]

Yes, you're right none of that over the top action was present in the OG. However, it wasn't present because the graphical limitations of that time prevented them from doing it. If they could, they would have. Each subsequent FF game past VII dialed that visual thematic action up further, and further. Nothing intrinsic to VII's story, lore or setting aside from the technological limitations of 97 kept it from going balls out like X, XI, XII or XIII.

Well sure, nothing is really stopping it from being that balls out. That doesn't change the fact that the balls were previously only half out.

The reasons why doesn't effect the fact that the overall portrayal has changed. And it's not a bad thing necessarily, in fact it make for some entertaining spectacle. But sometimes it's fun to see things a little more down to earth, ya know?

Like, my favorite part of the ACC flight is when Cloud tries to pull off the OG Omnislash. The exchange that Cloud and Sephiroth has there feels like a battle between two warriors who have honed their swordsmanship to the edge of perfection. The attacks are quick, the parries smooth, and the ripostes are unforgiving. The rest of the fight is still fun, but it doesn't quite give the same feel.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd more equate it to the balls not having properly dropped yet

But I get what you mean. The joys of the rapid shift of technology and media.

And just... Yeah, that part of ACC was pretty amusing. I love seeing the original Omnislash not even phase Sephiroth as he just stands there, blocks the slashes, and then smirks as he sees the finishing blow close in. Can't help but get an amused smile as I cringe at the obviously painful impalement. It pretty much shows the same tricks aren't gonna work twice here.

FF fights love to escalate like that, from normal sword fighting, to superhuman swordfighting to just superpowered city-leveling violence that punctuates a truly memorable final battle. FFXV loved that too lol

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's fun, like wuxia, which was something I didn't even know I needed in my life until I saw Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I don't enjoy normal, "realistic" fight scenes, but this fantasy stuff is glorious.

 

[Sephira]

The question then is, if Sephiroth has the power to mess with time and space, why doesn't he use it over and over and over again until events finally turn out the way he wants? Sephiroth's powers do seem to be both limitless and inexplicable. But if he isn't the one who created this portal or loop, then who or what is?

Perhaps this is why he asks Cloud to help him defy destiny while in The Edge of Creation? I have to say all this spacetime warping thing has me really curious! If you look closely, there's a point during the boss fight with the Whisper Harbinger when it absorbs everything into a black hole -and I do think Sephiroth does it too- and you know black holes distort spacetime, they turn time into space and space into time, according to quantum mechanics and general relativity (yes, I love these topics too XD) but if there's something or someone else who can interfere with both the Planet's will and Sephiroth's will, who or what is it? It has to be like ridiculously powerful like to have even Sephiroth himself asking Cloud for help.

I don't need to sleep, I need answers!

 

[Shademp]

I'm assuming that if Sephiroth has achieved time travel, he has done so under specific conditions that he himself can't easily replicate to perform time travel as he pleases.

One crack-theory I had the other day (based on the AC Sephiroth fan theory) was that the explosion from Omega being destroyed briefly weakened the fabric of spacetime, which gave AC Sephiroth the opportunity to cut a hole through spacetime thus causing the timeline divisions.

I don't think they'd go that far with Compilation-based explanations, but I figured I'd share the thought anyway.

It might just be that Sephiroth is able to roam spaces outside of time (like the Singularity) but that his influence on spaces within time is limited. We might never get more detailed explanations. For now, the only limit is our imaginations.

 

[Sasseli]

My head is about to burst. I cross-read through this thread, never ever am I capable of reading 93 pages! But the things I've read...


Why Zack? Why?

Why Sephiroth as endgame in the first installment? (That bit really bothers me!) Why fight against fate? What fate is it even they would face if they didn't kill/destroy/whatever the Whispers/Feelers/how'd'y call 'em? What future do those creatures actually try to defend here? And what does the party killing(?) and Sephiroth absorbing them mean for the course of things to come? I get it, that was the intention to put them in the game in the first place. Giving those nostalgic oldies among us a reason to be excited, an unknown factor that may (or may not) change important events of the original plot we all are so familiar with. Still...
When I already dislike the changes they made in this installment, then I'm not sure I'm gonna like whatever their existence (or now non-existence?) might change in the future.

I get what the developers did and why they did it, I just don't like what that did to the story. Like killing Barret and resurrecting him immediately afterwards? Those many occasions where the group would've died if not for those "fate protectors"? No, I just can't bring myself to like that new plot-device. Completely new, completely unnecessary in my eyes. Maybe if they had executed it differently, it might work for me. But they're too much "in your face", if anyone gets what I mean.

If they're supposed to prevent the story from changing then why are there so many changes in the Remake at all? Shouldn't Wedge have died during the Plate Crash then? Not talking about Biggs... shouldn't Sephiroth NOT have had such a prominent role in the first part then? (I get it, he can't be controlled by them/ he is kinda outside the realms of fate or at least he has powers to match?) but that makes them so pointless in my eyes. Sorry Mako, I know how much in favour of them you are from browsing through all the posts. I just can't bring myself to like their role in the game... yet.)

I need to get my head in order first, then play the game again, surely very much looking at everything with different eyes now...

I'M BLOWN!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It seems like Sephiroth can do stuff easily whenever it's convenient for the story, but when it isn't, he can't, because reasons.

 

[Shademp]

That's why Sephiroth is trying so hard to kill off the writers in FFVIIR

He's tired of the arbitrary nature of his capabilities

 

[Strangelove]

i've got to say that while i didn't mind the additions, i am starting to feel some pangs of disappointment that it won't be a straight forward remake and is instead going with all this changing destiny stuff?

 

[Sephira]

I'm assuming that if Sephiroth has achieved time travel, he has done so under specific conditions that he himself can't easily replicate to perform time travel as he pleases.

One crack-theory I had the other day (based on the AC Sephiroth fan theory) was that the explosion from Omega being destroyed briefly weakened the fabric of spacetime, which gave AC Sephiroth the opportunity to cut a hole through spacetime thus causing the timeline divisions.

I don't think they'd go that far with Compilation-based explanations, but I figured I'd share the thought anyway.

It might just be that Sephiroth is able to roam spaces outside of time (like the Singularity) but that his influence on spaces within time is limited. We might never get more detailed explanations. For now, the only limit is our imaginations.

Well, the place where the Whisper Harbinger boss fight takes place is called The Singularity, so yeah, there's some heavily-implied spacetime travel topics involved in here, this is going to be crazy XD

... Oh wait, it already is!

Even so, I wanna know what's going to happen, we could be up to a pleasant surprise and we still don't have the slightest idea. Just like you said, the only limit right now is our imaginations, the only thing we can do is wait and see what is what the creators have planned for the story.

 

[oty]

I think the question "why" is probably the worst one there is. Why did they have to add this? For that to be answered we would have to enter into the minds of Nomura, Nojima, Kitase and etc and find their reasonings. Like, actual Tifa&Cloud in the Lifestream moment, and then maybe, maybe we would find reasons. And who's to say that reason will suffice for us? They created the original 23 years ago, and they have a very different point of view of it than all of us. They have a very different point of view as game developers at SE, and also as creators.

There are no wrong points of view either. If we somehow understood theirs, it could even be for the worse. What if we lose the magic from the OG because now we understand plenty of things from it that are not to our liking? The "why" is a tricky concept, but ultimately is trivial. We cant call it as "wrong", that would be arrogant and dismissive. We also cant "correct" it, since it isnt wrong. It is just...the way of life.

i've got to say that while i didn't mind the additions, i am starting to feel some pangs of disappointment that it won't be a straight forward remake and is instead going with all this changing destiny stuff?

I think the dreams of a straight forward remake died when the whole trio came back to write this up lmao. There would be no way in hell that Kitase, Nomura and Nojima wouldnt cook something up with this game. Specially after they said it would be a "ongoing project" with multiple parts and expanded story.

We will probably still end with almost all of the iconic moments from the OG, that's for certain. They really want to recreate those scenes. I wouldnt even dare to say that the ongoing quest for "stoppin Sephiroth and his plan" is gonna change. I feel like the context will change, like with all this Zack stuff, but not really the endgame.

 

[Tetsujin]

That's why Sephiroth is trying so hard to kill off the writers in FFVIIR

He's tired of the arbitrary nature of his capabilities

His ultimate goal will be manifesting in the real world and taking the place of the Square Enix CEO as Yoseph Matsuroth. Only then will he truly become the master of his destiny.

 

[Sasseli]

But asking why is the only way to get answers. Without asking, what's the point of thinking about anything? And I didn't say anything about wrongness or correctness. I simply don't yet like what they're doing to the story. I don't like certain elements. Maybe that'll change with the future parts, but as of now, all that "alternate timeline" stuff doesn't sit well with me. Because it's a Pandora's box.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think the question "why" is probably the worst one there is. Why did they have to add this? For that to be answered we would have to enter into the minds of Nomura, Nojima, Kitase and etc and find their reasonings. Like, actual Tifa&Cloud in the Lifestream moment, and then maybe, maybe we would find reasons. And who's to say that reason will suffice for us? They created the original 23 years ago, and they have a very different point of view of it than all of us. They have a very different point of view as game developers at SE, and also as creators.

There's never a "why."

A creative work that an artist wishes to realize based on their own choice and desires is ample enough of a reason.

The more meaningful question is the message. What is the message that is conveyed in the work. And the message is as loud as a bullhorn.

"We don't want to do the same thing twice. Period. We're not hear to make a check, copy our work, and call it quits. That's not our style." Nomura and Kitase, particularly. They don't work like that. It's really as simple as that. They'll appease the safety concerns of those fans wanting FFVII's core experience to safeguard their nostalgia but at the end of the day, if they're going to be made to revisit a game from 1997, they'll do on their terms since it's their creation. There is no greater "why" than that, and I can respect it.

There are no wrong points of view either. If we somehow understood theirs, it could even be for the worse. What if we lose the magic from the OG because now we understand plenty of things from it that are not to our liking? The "why" is a tricky concept, but ultimately is trivial. We cant call it as "wrong", that would be arrogant and dismissive. We also cant "correct" it, since it isnt wrong. It is just...the way of life.

I think the dreams of a straight forward remake died when the whole trio came back to write this up lmao. There would be no way in hell that Kitase, Nomura and Nojima wouldnt cook something up with this game. Specially after they said it would be a "ongoing project" with multiple parts and expanded story.

Exactly, because if that's all it was? They could be doing better things with their time. In fact, they wouldn't even be needed to work on it. Someone with enough common sense, creative liberty, and understanding of the game could make it happen and move on with life.

But if you want the soul of the game, then you have to accept that it's going to grow and not be the exact same thing. Cause the writers are not the exact same people they were before.

 

[Sephira]

But if you want the soul of the game, then you have to accept that it's going to grow and not be the exact same thing. Cause the writers are not the exact same people they were before.

Besides, they stated clearly that this is a reimagination, not a remaster... if they wanted to do so, they could have perfectly released a Remastered version -like they did with FFVIII- and that was it, why would they make this huge game if the purpose wasn't to do something different? The fanbase already knew it wasn't going to be exactly the same, it's not as if they were oblivious to the fact.

 

[Sasseli]

You can still criticise it, though. Or isn't that allowed, because ultimately the producers decide what is right and good and all criticism is invalid?
I don't criticise changes or expansions in general. Of course they'd expand and change things. Everybody knew that. But one can still not like specific parts of that, can't they?

 

[Shademp]

I definitely disagree about the creative choices made with the inclusion of the Whispers and how the ending was handled. Pretty much everything else is awesome. They were doing so well with this game and then it all just went bonkers. It didn't have to be this way, but here we are. Square Enix developers are crazy. It is known.

 

[Sephira]

No one is saying all criticism is invalid, all we are saying is that everybody already knew it wasn't going to be the very same game again. It's okay to like or not to like it.

I like it and that's okay. You don't like it and that's okay. There are as many opinions and tastes as stars are in the observable universe.

 

[snatchr]

For some reason people like to act as if fleshing out elements of the original, adding new characters that fit naturally into the world, and plot protecting fate steering metaphysical wikipedia editors that exist to die so the story can run off on its own tracks, as the same thing. You simply cannot have one without the other!

I'm aware of the ultimania stuff, and its tempered some of my fears, but I'm far from blindly trusting them.

 

[Wol]

It's just a shame what they tried to do differently on the story stinks.

Not only the ending is a mish-mash of random elements happening on screen, there's no build up and their "creative" vision is about using cliche tropes like fighting fate and destiny, and adding more complexity to an already dense story with timeline shenanigans and possible alternate realities.

If that wasn't enough, there's no witty tie-in with previous lore to at least give us a vague explanation on why that is even possible or what is the purpose of adding those elements in. Maybe we'll know when they actually have a fucking idea.

Sephiroth appearing more often wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't just a show-off spouting cryptic one-liners.

It was all presented poorly, and that's why many aren't convinced with their vision. It's not about changing or not, but the how.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You can still criticise it, though. Or isn't that allowed, because ultimately the producers decide what is right and good and all criticism is invalid?
I don't criticise changes or expansions in general. Of course they'd expand and change things. Everybody knew that. But one can still not like specific parts of that, can't they?

You're absolutely right. You can criticize it all you like. However, the point I was making is that this wasn't some unfathomable turn of events or freak occurrence that made no sense.

This makes perfect sense. They wanted to do something more creative, intriguing and reflective of their passion than a rote remaster. It's not crazy. It's different. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

But this is their cup of tea, and how they want to flex their creative muscles. This is their story and they have an idea of where they want to go. In a narrative and meta-textual sense. This will not please everybody.

But neither did FFVII in 1997 coming after the blockbuster FFVI for the SNES. People didn't like the edgy, cinematic polygon stylization that replaced the beloved sprites and attachment to Nintendo.

One thing Final Fantasy will always do with 100% success is never please everyone.

It's just a shame what they tried to do differently on the story stinks.

Not only the ending is a mish-mash of random elements happening on screen, there's no build up and their "creative" vision is about using cliche tropes like fighting fate and destiny, and adding more complexity to an already dense story with timeline shenanigans and possible alternate realities.

FFs are filled with cliche tropes. They've created about half of the ones found in JRPGs. People who hate FFVII probably said the same thing. It's subjective.

One person's beloved recurring motif and theme, is another's grating and hackneyed cliche.

If that wasn't enough, there's no witty tie-in with previous lore to at least give us a vague explanation on why that is even possible or what is the purpose of adding those elements in. Maybe we'll know when they actually have a fucking idea.

Sephiroth appearing more often wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't just a show-off spouting only cryptic lines.

If we go by the nature of spirit energy and souls as illustrated in FFIX, and FFXIII... Time travel or at least warping space-time is not unheard of or random. This is new for FFVII but as you said we don't know anything yet. This is the beginning.

And Sephiroth's words aren't random nonsense. They hold meaning as we've discovered through the Ultimania. He actually revealed quite a bit.

It was all presented poorly, and that's why many aren't convinced with their vision.

I mean, that's an understandable opinion to hold. But at the same time, this is the risk of life and growth. Things change and things can change in ways you never imagined or wanted. FFVII exists in ways almost unique to every person. Hence why a Remake was inevitably going to ruffle some folks wrong.

 

[Mayo Master]

You can still criticise it, though. Or isn't that allowed, because ultimately the producers decide what is right and good and all criticism is invalid?
I don't criticise changes or expansions in general. Of course they'd expand and change things. Everybody knew that. But one can still not like specific parts of that, can't they?

I think I share your feelings regarding the Whispers of Fate - personally I didn't like their inclusion. I'd have been fine if the devs had changed some plot elements without inserting a plot device that reflected the act of changing plot elements.

Now, personally, I think I've made my peace with it. IMO, as much as I could complain about it, now it's part of the plot anyway. I could either keep expressing grief for the years to come, or decide to roll with the new changes. "Let us embrace whatever it brings" and all that.

 

[snatchr]

I definitely disagree about the creative choices made with the inclusion of the Whispers and how the ending was handled. Pretty much everything else is awesome. They were doing so well with this game and then it all just went bonkers. It didn't have to be this way, but here we are. Square Enix developers are crazy. It is known.

The rub is most of this remake IS a dramatic reimagination that takes the skeleton of the 1997 game and expands and improves upon it while leaving its own prestige stamp on franchises lasting legacy. Its not some basic 1:1 remaster when the whispers arent dicking around. Its reimagined in a way that compliments and improves. People arent out in force poo pooing how radically different the wall market events are, the visit to Jessies parents, the expansion on virtually every character in Midgar and turning a screen of 3 houses and 4 characters into entire functioning neighbourhoods. But misrepresenting "this tacky fate crap is distracting!" as mindless nostalgia begging is easy I suppose.

 

[oty]

But asking why is the only way to get answers. Without asking, what's the point of thinking about anything? And I didn't say anything about wrongness or correctness. I simply don't yet like what they're doing to the story. I don't like certain elements. Maybe that'll change with the future parts, but as of now, all that "alternate timeline" stuff doesn't sit well with me. Because it's a Pandora's box.

I'm talking about "why was this added/changed?". Of course there has to be questions regarding "who is this Seph?" or "why did Cloud do this?", but to ask the reasons why they did x or y....well you have the answers. They didnt want to do the same thing. That's a completely understandable reason.

You can still criticise it, though. Or isn't that allowed, because ultimately the producers decide what is right and good and all criticism is invalid?
I don't criticise changes or expansions in general. Of course they'd expand and change things. Everybody knew that. But one can still not like specific parts of that, can't they?

Of course you can criticise the way the changes were made. But criticise their reasoning? That doesnt make sense. "You didnt have to do this". Well, nobody has to do anything. Everything comes from a creational desire.

For some reason people like to act as if fleshing out elements of the original, adding new characters that fit naturally into the world, and plot protecting fate steering metaphysical wikipedia editors that exist to die so the story can run off on its own tracks, as the same thing. You simply cannot have one without the other!

I'm aware of the ultimania stuff, and its tempered some of my fears, but I'm far from blindly trusting them.

We are not really talking about that? Of course they could have only expanded certain things, but they didnt chose to. Using the term Remake gives enough leeway for plenty of changes, and they used that. It's completely legal and justified.

It's just a shame what they tried to do differently on the story stinks.

Not only the ending is a mish-mash of random elements happening on screen, there's no build up and their "creative" vision is about using cliche tropes like fighting fate and destiny, and adding more complexity to an already dense story with timeline shenanigans and possible alternate realities.

If that wasn't enough, there's no witty tie-in with previous lore to at least give us a vague explanation on why that is even possible or what is the purpose of adding those elements in. Maybe we'll know when they actually have a fucking idea.

Sephiroth appearing more often wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't just a show-off spouting only cryptic lines.

It was all presented poorly, and that's why many aren't convinced with their vision. It's not about changing or not, but the how.

Even though I completely agree that the ending was a mess, that happened through a lot of reasons not related to the story, after all it is still a game. Most importantly, there are plenty of people who, even if the ending was perfect, wouldnt view it as anything besides convoluted and bad. A criticism stems completely from the personal tastes and points of view of someone, so this is a very complicated situation. Is a cliche bad? Plenty of games used extremely well known tropes as their main themes, and yet they still work. That's why it's complicated

And we are far than unaware when discussing if they have an overall idea or not of the game. That isnt the type of talk someone has in an interview. Thats inside the reunions between directors and cfos and ceos.

 

[Wol]

I'm talking about "why was this added/changed?". Of course there has to be questions regarding "who is this Seph?" or "why did Cloud do this?", but to ask the reasons why they did x or y....well you have the answers. They didnt want to do the same thing. That's a completely understandable reason.


Of course you can criticise the way the changes were made. But criticise their reasoning? That doesnt make sense. "You didnt have to do this". Well, nobody has to do anything. Everything comes from a creational desire.


We are not really talking about that? Of course they could have only expanded certain things, but they didnt chose to. Using the term Remake gives enough leeway for plenty of changes, and they used that. It's completely legal and justified.


Even though I completely agree that the ending was a mess, that happened through a lot of reasons not related to the story, after all it is still a game. Most importantly, there are plenty of people who, even if the ending was perfect, wouldnt view it as anything besides convoluted and bad. A criticism stems completely from the personal tastes and points of view of someone, so this is a very complicated situation. Is a cliche bad? Plenty of games used extremely well known tropes as their main themes, and yet they still work. That's why it's complicated

And we are far than unaware when discussing if they have an overall idea or not of the game. That isnt the type of talk someone has in an interview. Thats inside the reunions between directors and cfos and ceos.

A cliche isn't bad per se, but it's implementation can be.

I don't have any reason to believe they have a solid plan for this nonsense, how it was inserted was random, weak build-up and all explanation conveniently was relegated for future entries - the why and hows. As Kitase said, they have a general idea of how the story will proceed and how many Parts it will take, we'll see.

The new elements lacked a familiriaty point that would serve as a bridge to justify them (as in, using lore and better dialogue), making those elements feel organic; we should have got some of the whys sooner.