SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[oty]

If we are talking about the realm of probabilities, that's high unlikely. They atleast have a general plan and the reason of why they were added. That's the kind of stuff you need to show to the Executive side of SE so they are aware of what their director is doing (or to bar you from doing it). I mean, considering SE still functions as an actual company that is

 

[Wol]

If we are talking about the realm of probabilities, that's high unlikely. They atleast have a general plan and the reason of why they were added. That's the kind of stuff you need to show to the Executive side of SE so they are aware of what their director is doing (or to bar you from doing it). I mean, considering SE still functions as an actual company that is

It's a shame we can't trust neither director or the executives to organically tie-in new elements to the existing world.

Maybe the executives slacked a bit there.

 

[Rydeen]

The implication from the Ultimania IIRC (if you don't already have it because special individual reasons) is that Whisper-sight spreads upon contact/interaction between individuals who gain it. So Cloud got it from Aerith and thus gave it to rest of the Avalanche members and so on.

If the ability to see the whispers spreads through contact, how was Rufus able to see them but no one else in Shinra (that we know of) was able to? Not even Tseng, who interacted with Aerith?

I had assumed that a character having a strong influence over the major events of the OG (or whom was about to cause a serious deviation thereof) was the prerequisite. Coming into contact with Aerith would then only be one possible way that one could potentially achieve that status. It obviously doesn’t happen to everyone she interacts with.

 

[Wol]

If the ability to see the whispers spreads through contact, how was Rufus able to see them but no one else in Shinra (that we know of) was able to? Not even Tseng, who interacted with Aerith?

I had assumed that a character having a strong influence over the major events of the OG (or to cause a deviation thereof) was the prerequisite. Coming into contact with Aerith would then only be one possible way that one could potentially achieve that status. It obviously doesn’t happen to everyone she interacts with.

A potential plot-hole.

 

[Theozilla]

If the ability to see the whispers spreads through contact, how was Rufus able to see them but no one else in Shinra (that we know of) was able to? Not even Tseng, who interacted with Aerith?

I had assumed that a character having a strong influence over the major events of the OG (or whom was about to cause a serious deviation thereof) was the prerequisite. Coming into contact with Aerith would then only be one possible way that one could potentially achieve that status. It obviously doesn’t happen to everyone she interacts with.

Yes I already said the contact method was only one possible way. The other way is to be an already “special individual”, which Rufus likely falls into. Those are two methods explained in the Ultimania.

 

[Rydeen]

Yes I already said the contact method was only one possible way. The other way is to be an already “special individual”, which Rufus likely falls into. Those are two methods explained in the Ultimania.

You didn’t say that in the previous post, but that would make sense.

And the Turks could not “catch” it from neither Aerith nor Rufus because they always do what they are told (they could have tried to influence Rufus’ decision making, but it was probably too early for that to have happened, and they appear to be dead now anyway). Aerith, Rufus, the members of Avalanche are all kinda wildcards who could change fate, so they could see them. This is how I see it at this point.

 

[Theozilla]

You didn’t say that in the previous post, but that would make sense.

And the Turks could not “catch” it from neither Aerith nor Rufus because they always do what they are told (they could have tried to influence Rufus’ decision making, but it was probably too early for that to have happened, and they appear to be dead now anyway). Aerith, Rufus, the members of Avalanche are all kinda wildcards who could change fate, so they could see them. This is how I see it at this point.

Maybe it wasn’t clear in my post but this where I stated it:

(if you don't already have it because special individual reasons)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I mean they haven't ironed out all the finer details. They clearly have a well developed general idea. But I also think that to some extent they have left it open-ended because they're not yet 100% sure of what they will need the Whispers to do.

 

[Rydeen]

Maybe it wasn’t clear in my post but this where I stated it:

Ooh, I thought by "if you don't already have it" you were referring to people who haven't already looked through all the Ultimania stuff dripping out.

I mean they haven't ironed out all the finer details. They clearly have a well developed general idea. But I also think that to some extent they have left it open-ended because they're not yet 100% sure of what they will need the Whispers to do.

I'm hoping this means that they are trying to execute it all in a way that results in the least amount of plotholes.

 

[looneymoon]

wait, do you all really have faith they have a thought out idea of what the whispers are?

These are the same people who in more recent years have brought us the narrative consistency of Final Fantasy 15 and Kingdom Hearts 3.

Guys. Come on.

 

[Rydeen]

wait, do you all really have faith they have a thought out idea of what the whispers are?

These are the same people who in more recent years have brought us the narrative consistency of Final Fantasy 15 and Kingdom Hearts 3.

Guys. Come on.

A girl can dream (and be let down). I actually have not played either of those games tho. I'm just hoping someone will keep Normura in check. I honestly never liked his strong directional influence over the years - he should just focus on the art. Preferably with minimal crinolines.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually XV was Tabata's baby

Nomura got kicked off that.

If they thought this much about going meta, with literally leaning into making the narrative a remake of FFVII, I mean. That clearly denotes some sort of message and intent.

 

[Rydeen]

If they thought this much about going meta, with literally leaning into making the narrative a remake of FFVII, I mean. That clearly denotes some sort of message and intent.

I don't agree that this automatically means that they plan to put a lot of logical thought into it. However, the fact that they did so well on everything other than Ch 18 is what gives me hope that they may execute the metaphysical stuff somewhat properly.

 

[Theozilla]

Also as stated in the Ultimania thread, there wasn’t any single individual developer responsible for the fate additions and chapter 18 stuff, Nomura, Nojima, Kitase, and even Toriyama and Hamaguchi all contributed to shaping the new stuff the in the Remake.

 

[looneymoon]

it's just been too long guys.

this goes back to advent children. dirge of cerberus. crisis core. ff13. kingdom hearts. ff15. what else am I missing?

I'm not saying the game was bad, but at some point the narrative Stockholm syndrome has gotta end, doesn't it?

Not trying to be ultra negative, because there is a lot of good done in the game. but let's call a spade a spade here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't agree that this automatically means that they plan to put a lot of logical thought into it. However, the fact that they did so well on everything other than Ch 18 is what gives me hope that they may execute the metaphysical stuff somewhat properly.

Well, Nomura's claim that "Remake" holds a double meaning and to ask him in a few years when he can answer, sorta tips his hand. Especially when the dev team said that the only way they would remake FFVII was if they could change things and not make it a simple recreation of the original.

Combining those two facts pretty much tells what their intent is with this. They're teasing expectations here. Now, on the flip side they won't tease them too much... But they clearly are wanting to do a meta perspective with this. It matches their openly stated desires.

it's just been too long guys.

this goes back to advent children. dirge of cerberus. crisis core. ff13. kingdom hearts. ff15. what else am I missing?

I'm not saying the game was bad, but at some point the narrative Stockholm syndrome has gotta end, doesn't it?

Not trying to be ultra negative, because there is a lot of good done in the game. but let's call a spade a spade here.

 

[Theozilla]

I mean different people have different opinions, even among OG fans who played the game as a kid. Maximilian Dood is a long time OG fan and he absolutely loved the ending.
And there are plenty of fans for those games you listed @looneymoon , especially for Crisis Core within the FFVII fandom. There’s no need for accusations of “narrative Stockholm Syndrome” that’s just unnecessarily dismissive of way too many and very different kinds of people.

 

[Rydeen]

it's just been too long guys.

this goes back to advent children. dirge of cerberus. crisis core. ff13. kingdom hearts. ff15. what else am I missing?

I'm not saying the game was bad, but at some point the narrative Stockholm syndrome has gotta end, doesn't it?

Not trying to be ultra negative, because there is a lot of good done in the game. but let's call a spade a spade here.

I think most of the remake was a testament to how they are able to put out a product of much higher quality than AC (I like AC but I recognize it had its issues), DC, and CC, but I get your point, which is why I'm not entirely convinced they can pull it off.

Well, Nomura's claim that "Remake" holds a double meaning and to ask him in a few years when he can answer, sorta tips his hand. Especially when the dev team said that the only way they would remake FFVII was if they could change things and not make it a simple recreation of the original.

Combining those two facts pretty much tells what their intent is with this. They're teasing expectations here. Now, on the flip side they won't tease them too much... But they clearly are wanting to do a meta perspective with this. It matches their openly stated desires.

I'm not saying that there was no purpose to this. I'm saying that it doesn't mean that they are going to execute it in a way that is not laden with plotholes.

May seem like I'm arguing for both sides, but that's because my view is in between. I feel that at this point that it can either turn out good or it can turn out bad, and I'm not convinced either way yet.

 

[Wol]

wait, do you all really have faith they have a thought out idea of what the whispers are?

These are the same people who in more recent years have brought us the narrative consistency of Final Fantasy 15 and Kingdom Hearts 3.

Guys. Come on.

I found FFXVs story to be pretty straightforward, and at somes points even basic. The inconsistency was in the presentation, but the story bits were "normal".

KH is really a disaster, it's just a bunch of crazyness.

 

[looneymoon]

bruh I liked most of the games I listed. I defended a fuck ton of those games on this very board. I'm not trying to be dismissive, but consistent decline of S-E story telling isn't exactly a controversial stance, and I don't feel the need to defend that.

Its frustrating because the vast majority of the game shows that they can do stuff without jizzing its load of crap that smells awfully like a lot of other crap that's come out of this studio.

I mean, I have signed up for the ride that includes the poo bags, but I'm still not gonna be like... super chill about being served poo.

I just don't really care about what these writers have to say anymore. I am sure they have thoughts about what they're doing, but the quality of their ideas just aren't it for me.

I just gotta know to temper my expectations are. Which honestly, they were at the onset. The good parts of the game (which there were many) had me dazzled. Just sucks they had to go and ruin all the report that was built up.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't think that the storytellers at Square Enix (or at least the lead storytellers for Final Fantasy) honestly care all that much about narrative consistency and logical progression of plot. I don't think they are interested in nailing down every last detail of their cool ideas. They convey meaning through visuals and through metaphors, lots and lots of metaphors. It's like poetry. If you try to grasp it too firmly, it turns to smoke and slips away between your fingers.

 

[Suzaku]

I wonder how many people comparing the ending to KH have actually played KH, because I don't really see the correlation.

There is nothing crazier in this ending than there was in the original FFVII, which I'd like to remind people is about the genetically engineered son of an alien trying to manipulate genetic copies of himself in order to crash a meteor into a planet where dead people literally become sentient gasoline in order to become a god while his amnesiac clone, two eco terrorists, the last surviving descendent of an ancient race of geomancers, a cowboy rocket scientist, a shapeshifting vampire, a ninja, a stuffed animal, and a talking cat-dog try to stop him, but are impeded by, basically, the Trump administration looking for the afterlife because they want to exploit its resources, and the planet creates biomechanical mecha to fight them. Oh and it has tankceratops, a tank that is also a triceratops.

The whispers are just a drop in the bucket.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Sheer brilliance.
Indeed the more I play the Remake the more I love how all its novelties adhere to the spirit of the original.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well.. They're a drop in the bucket with a time tunnel at the bottom of said bucket that connects to the factory used to manufacture it.

But yeah, I think given what the actual characterization, interactions, moments, and scenes shown thus far, this honestly isn't that big of a deal. At least when compared to the majority that's here.

If I were to just find just the entire concept of the last part of the Remake balls, that still leaves the rest of FFVII they got right. They have some sort of capablity of hitting the moments that matter. Which I would say, are the characters and their interactions, overall. Because I get that now that the future is uncertain, one who doubted their efficacy in crafting a story would probably question what's around the corner, waiting for some horrifying unmasking of doom. But I certainly don't think they simply got lucky, and are just Cait Sith'ing it with random slots and dice

 

[Wol]

I wonder how many people comparing the ending to KH have actually played KH, because I don't really see the correlation.

There is nothing crazier in this ending than there was in the original FFVII, which I'd like to remind people is about the genetically engineered son of an alien trying to manipulate genetic copies of himself in order to crash a meteor into a planet where dead people literally become sentient gasoline in order to become a god while his amnesiac clone, two eco terrorists, the last surviving descendent of an ancient race of geomancers, a cowboy rocket scientist, a shapeshifting vampire, a ninja, a stuffed animal, and a talking cat-dog try to stop him, but are impeded by, basically, the Trump administration looking for the afterlife because they want to exploit its resources, and the planet creates biomechanical mecha to fight them. Oh and it has tankceratops, a tank that is also a triceratops.

The whispers are just a drop in the bucket.

Piling up crazyness over crazyness is exactly what KH is known for.

The problem is how the rules and the setting are set up from the start. A bio-machine that looks like a triceratops is no big deal because we know Shinra makes bio and military experiments.

All those things you entioned can be explained in-lore, and that's why they don't feel random inside their own world.