SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Pizzachu]

Regarding the Buster Sword, can someone else check out this image of Zack holding it? I want someone else to tell me if I'm seeing things or not.

You know that post I had of the Buster Sword with some red sticking out of the leather wrapping of the handle?

Spoiler: Here it is in case you forgot/didn't notice

I think I can see a similar red area in this photo of Zack:

Spoiler: Zack

As people had noticed and pointed out that the graphics can get a bit wonky, do you think this might hold any significance to the Buster Sword's design? Am I just seeing things and the "red area" is just another part of the leather wrapping?

 

[Eerie]

I'm amazed that so many people believe that:

1. Zack is still alive (???)
2. You can have alternate endings to the game (probably saving Aerith?)

I'm like how the fuck did they come to believe that just by this ending and the new mobs, it's beyond me. While I do wonder if that scene will be altered, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it will happen. The whole alternate realities is just that, alternate realities that you will not live in the game. Which means, if you want fanfictions, please do, you can make up your own alternate reality, but the game is telling its own canon, and that's it.

I don't really know what's complicated about this concept, maybe it's because I've lived long enough in fandoms to know what is fanfiction lmao, it's basically this.

 

[Noble0ne]

Okay so in the OG game, it was weird that Tifa never said anything to cloud or rest the group... Now Aeris is in on the act of let's not tell cloud we know who he really is...

Can't say how that will play out but I have my fears

 

[Eerie]

I think it mostly stems from the fact that they are expanding on the characters - obviously Aerith knows or understands a good deal too, and I think that while she'll still want to meet the "real" Cloud, she's also realising early that something is very wrong with him. And that makes her side with Tifa on this.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Given how these Whisper things pretty obviously resemble Sephiroth's Negative Lifestream from AC(C), any chance that during his "I will never be just a memory" moment, Seph did ... something ... and sent knowledge of future events to his past/alternate self?

If there's a twist coming, as there most certainly is, I'd expect it to be less that Sephiroth has co-opted the Arbiters to make Cloud think the world is inevitably going to be destroyed (because, you know, obvious), and more that Sephiroth outright knows the real history of the future is one where he lost multiple times.

Of course, this being Sephiroth, his ego is going to be his guiding light. So he's going to more or less make sure to repeat things as they were before to prove that he was supposed to win -- and then lose again despite having the upper hand, as he always does.

 

[Kratos]

Given how these Whisper things pretty obviously resemble Sephiroth's Negative Lifestream from AC(C), any chance that during his "I will never be just a memory" moment, Seph did ... something ... and sent knowledge of future events to his past/alternate self?

If there's a twist coming, as there most certainly is, I'd expect it to be less that Sephiroth has co-opted the Arbiters to make Cloud think the world is inevitably going to be destroyed (because, you know, obvious), and more that Sephiroth outright knows the real history of the future is one where he lost multiple times.

Of course, this being Sephiroth, his ego is going to be his guiding light. So he's going to more or less make sure to repeat things as they were before to prove that he was supposed to win -- and then lose again despite having the upper hand, as he always does.

But then the game becomes all meta and self-aware and is essentially a pseudo sequel, which sort of undermines the idea of telling the story again for a new generation, no?

I dunno. This is just me preferring something that stands alone on its own merits.

 

[Eerie]

OK so I was missing a scene and I understand better why people think Zack is alive. IMHO, he's most likely still dead (why would he abandon his sword to Cloud?), and Aerith sees his last moments before he dies.

If he does not die though... I don't see why he shouldn't, honestly. Him surviving change a lot of things - we know the team fell in love with Zack, if I recall right, when they created CC, was it? - but I don't see why he'd leave his sword to Cloud - unless he's kidnapped, but why when Shinra was trying to kill him moments ago? Him not dying would change a lot of things in the next installment, like Aerith having her own love triangle (this is becoming too complicated), not to mention the effect on Cloud? Cloud's mind is currently a mix of Zack's, his own opinion of what a hero is, and his true self. When Aerith mention Zack's name at the playground, Cloud phases out to not hear the name (not on purpose, but he does!). Him facing Zack would probably break him?

IMHO the implications for FFVII's own scenario are just too big for him to still live. Oh well, we'll see next game then, I guess. SE sure knows how to make us be impatient though, what a cliffhanger!

On a side note he seriously looks great, OMG!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But then the game becomes all meta and self-aware and is essentially a pseudo sequel, which sort of undermines the idea of telling the story again for a new generation, no?

I dunno. This is just me preferring something that stands alone on its own merits.

Oh, I'm with you on the preference. Just trying to make sense of whatever it is they've done here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The confused assessments from early, early viewers have a lot of people apparently thinking Zack never died because they don't recognize the callback to the OG's depiction of his death. He carried Cloud before the 3 infantrymen ambushed him and shot him dead.

LOL hopefully this stops cause it's bizarre how people are running with it. It's like yelling fire in a crowded movie theatre.

 

[Theozilla]

Something I am still trying to figure out is whether both Biggs and Wedge survive. Or is it one of those optional choices where depending on player choices only one of them can survive while the other dies?

 

[Eerie]

OK, reading another theory, I think it fits with the idea of FFVII Remake being an alternate game according to Nomura. The thought is that:

1. To fight Sephiroth, they passed through a gate and were in bizarro world
2. They took the gate back BUT we have two different things that make us go "uh":
   1. Biggs is alive and being treated at Elmyra's
   2. Stamp the dog has changed, he's not the same on the flashback than what he is on the posters you see at the beginning of the game - hence why Barret would also make a big fuss about Stamp, to make fans look at a picture of him and realise it's not the same by the end
3. Which leads to they switched to an alternate reality at the end of the game, and this is not going to follow the OG anymore
4. Hence Zack is still alive, Aerith can not die, etc.

Honestly... this would be one of a ride lol. The idea being that at the end of the game, they'd be propelled back to their own reality/world.

 

[Pizzachu]

It's still a little strange considering the explosion (?) Zack saw before carrying Cloud.

Spoiler: Photos

What is that?

I'm enjoying seeing people freak out over this. I wasn't able to experience any excitement surrounding FFVII before, so seeing everyone go crazy is incredibly entertaining to me.

 

[Theozilla]

I'm amazed that so many people believe that:

1. Zack is still alive (???)
2. You can have alternate endings to the game (probably saving Aerith?)

I'm like how the fuck did they come to believe that just by this ending and the new mobs, it's beyond me. While I do wonder if that scene will be altered, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it will happen. The whole alternate realities is just that, alternate realities that you will not live in the game. Which means, if you want fanfictions, please do, you can make up your own alternate reality, but the game is telling its own canon, and that's it.

I don't really know what's complicated about this concept, maybe it's because I've lived long enough in fandoms to know what is fanfiction lmao, it's basically this.

As I said in the interview thread, I don’t believe Nomura is describing the OG as an alternate reality within the Remake itself as a plot point. He’s just saying to view the Remake and OG as separate canons of the overall same story being told.
It’s more like the various cinematic versions of King Kong as a film.

 

[Eerie]

I thought it was weird and looked like Midgard exploded, than thought "wait nah can't be that, maybe something's exploding near and coming to kill him".

Oh wait in that theory, for it to work, it would mean that all the protags in Midgard must die to not have doubles in that alternate reality?

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

I guess it's putting too much stock into one phrase, but isn't the final thing before the credits the phrase "The Unknown Journey Awaits"? To me, that seems like a pretty obvious way of saying the other parts aren't going to be a remake of FFVII; they'll be something else entirely.

My theory is that this is why they called part one "Final Fantasy VII Remake," because after this it's not a remake in the way most people think of it. Only part one is a remake, everything after that is a re-imagining.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah I definitely don’t think that’s going to be case. SE has repeatedly referred to the Remake as entire video game project/series. It’s not just the first installment.

 

[billy22]

I don't know what the fuck this is anymore

That will be the last line in the series. And the irony will be lost on Nomura.

 

[Eerie]

Honestly, I don't believe in this theory buuuuuuuuuut I love playing with it because well... it's so fun! In a writing point of view, this would allow so many things that you can't do with a FFVII Remake, and I think that's why people believe it's true too: not necessarily because they want it that way (they don't), but because they see that it would mean that the original team could write whatever tf they want, and that's what they fear the most. So in a coping mechanism, they think it must be true since it would mean the writers would prefer it this way

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Yeah I definitely don’t think that’s going to be case. SE has repeatedly referred to the Remake as entire video game project/series. It’s not just the first installment.

Poor choice of words on my part then. The whole thing is a remake, but only the first part is a particularly faithful remake. Just calling something a remake doesn't imply how faithful it is, just that it re-makes the source material. I think they're playing with that definition a little bit. They've talked a lot about how the old FFVII set the bar for JRPGs, and that they want to match that here. Doing something radical like this could be their way of setting the bar for remakes.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

It's still a little strange considering the explosion (?) Zack saw before carrying Cloud.

Spoiler: Photos

What is that?

I'm enjoying seeing people freak out over this. I wasn't able to experience any excitement surrounding FFVII before, so seeing everyone go crazy is incredibly entertaining to me.

I wouldn't be too critical with those who are trying to work their heads around what these sorts of changes mean. Obviously, no matter if the Zack sequence started the same as the CC depiction—Zack experiencing what he is here is too different in what it could mean to be seen as the same events that followed in CC. This is significant of something outside of what we know is supposed to happen (though that doesn't mean it still doesn't happen—i.e. Zack dying). I still don't think he's "alive" (to be specific, in what they intend on doing with this deviation), but in the sake of knowing how this game has differentiated itself in presentation, there's some pretty intense suggestions that there's some tomfoolery happening here that will probably come back in some form later on in the story.

 

[Pizzachu]

Oh, I wasn't trying to be critical with people who are posting theories. I actually like seeing people speculating on what could possibly happen in the next game. Like you said, Zack seeing this explosion (I still don't know what to call it) is something new that hadn't been touched upon in Crisis Core or in the original game. It's interesting.

While I do feel sympathy for the fans who wanted a slightly updated version of FFVII, I am excited to see what will happen next. The amount of rage I am seeing from some people online is highly entertaining. It's one thing to be disappointed or even slightly angry, but some people are taking it to the next level. This beats out the Tifa's appearance "controversy" by a long shot.

 

[Wol]

OK, reading another theory, I think it fits with the idea of FFVII Remake being an alternate game according to Nomura. The thought is that:

1. To fight Sephiroth, they passed through a gate and were in bizarro world
2. They took the gate back BUT we have two different things that make us go "uh":
   1. Biggs is alive and being treated at Elmyra's
   2. Stamp the dog has changed, he's not the same on the flashback than what he is on the posters you see at the beginning of the game - hence why Barret would also make a big fuss about Stamp, to make fans look at a picture of him and realise it's not the same by the end
3. Which leads to they switched to an alternate reality at the end of the game, and this is not going to follow the OG anymore
4. Hence Zack is still alive, Aerith can not die, etc.

Honestly... this would be one of a ride lol. The idea being that at the end of the game, they'd be propelled back to their own reality/world.

that would suck so much lol

I wouldnt be surprised if they used such excuse to make lower-key events than depicted on the original.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Oh, I wasn't trying to be critical with people who are posting theories. I actually like seeing people speculating on what could possibly happen in the next game. Like you said, Zack seeing this explosion (I still don't know what to call it) is something new that hadn't been touched upon in Crisis Core or in the original game. It's interesting.

While I do feel sympathy for the fans who wanted a slightly updated version of FFVII, I am excited to see what will happen next. The amount of rage I am seeing from some people online is highly entertaining. It's one thing to be disappointed or even slightly angry, but some people are taking it to the next level. This beats out the Tifa's appearance "controversy" by a long shot.

Oh, my first sentence was really just in general, but I quoted yours for the sake of the pictures you provided. lol But, yeah, ahhh, fandom. At recent, it is also entertaining to see so many arguments over the complete applicable meaning of the "steel sky"—which, I have my own take on that based on earlier conversations in the game where Aerith literally talks about it, along with everything from her talk about "change", the "never-ending sky", and that very ending sequence. Such neat additions/expression from her character.

But, good lord...as fun as it is, I can't wait to get the game and step away a bit to take it all in at full. It's a bit different taking all this information here and there, whether by seeing it or word of mouth—sitting down and really going through the narrative towards this ending itself will be different than what I feel now, for sure. If I didn't feel quarantined before, I will then.

 

[Suzaku]

So, I wound up spoiling myself a bit -- couldn't help it after seeing Zack in the trailer -- and just want to know if anyone can clarify my assumptions, since I've still seen next to nothing:

So, basically, the arbiters of fate are like, an overt acknowledgement that Remake is "changing history," right? Like events are straying from how the original game depicted them, and the Whispers appear to try and course correct.

If so, is everything Sephiroth doing here actually an attempt to pit our heroes against the Whispers to create a new timeline where he succeeds? Something like that?

Hence the bizzaro ending where Zack seems to survive and witnesses Midgar cloaked in that coccoon of Whispers?

Am I on the right track? Is Aerith getting glimpses of the past, or of a different timeline that's possibly overlapping? Something like that?

At any rate, I wonder how purists will feel about this. It feels to me like it's a way to honor the original and change things in a way that acknowledges the original without, you know, retconning it or casting it aside.

 

[Theozilla]

No, as I have argued previously, I don’t think the OG is being acknowledged as some alternate timeline in story. I believe “the future” and “fated destiny” stuff is from a future the Planet in the Remake is currently on track to be “fated” for, likely a future where Sephiroth won and became a God like being (or perhaps one where The Lifestream dies from over Mako usage). The protagonists are being set up as being capable of changing fate/destiny from that “bad future”. And I don’t think Zack is somehow alive, I think there might be like time-space singularity stuff and other weird visit shenanigans going on. But I don’t think the game is implying Zack didn’t die.