It's these nuances that I fear may change the story a little too much. Again, yes, Remake, modern storytelling, but different doesn't mean change of focus. Come on.
The tricky thing about foreshadowing is that it often seems bludgingly obvious when you know the story, and...well, we all know the story. Most of those little things that Aerith does can only be interpreted as foreshadowing in hindsight - none of them are what might be traditionally considered to be "death flags"; nothing about them screams "LOOK LOOK SHE'S GOING TO DIE!" to the uninitiated.
As for the Chapter 2 scene: while we've all only heard this sequence described secondhand and thus can't really analyze the nuances of its approach, what we have heard actually sounds like a clever bit of misdirection, moreso than anything else.
Obviously, Sephiroth's actions can be seen as the game foreshadowing his failure to save Aerith, but in its immediate context, it reads more like his his failure to save the people of Nibelheim, not in the least because it follows hallucinations of Cloud's hometown burning to ash (rather than, say, a location resembling the Northern Crater). The fact that he chooses Aerith to taunt Cloud with, then, comes across as her being a person currently in danger that Cloud will fail to save in the moment, not a person who will later die.
We'll see what this all looks like when the whole of the text is available to us, but based on what we know, it's not something that actively spoils anything for new players, while at best it provides a bit of playful manipulation of expectations.
Hey we all have different opinions I noticed that myself though how she kneels as she picks up the fallen flowers almost like a foreshadowing and how Max says sephiroth pushes her away and tells cloud he cannot save her or anyone or even himself or something like that but the thing is maybe they are doing that for new fans to vii who never played the original I think that square wants to give newcomers a story to tell that we already know about from beginning to end.
In my eyes vii remake is not only for the old generation but for the new generation of ff fans to enjoy, mainly the latter when dirge came out we knew what to expect story wise same with crisis core, with remake square wants to tell a story to the new fans give them an experience we veteran fans know about already....gosh hard to explain I hope you understand what I am getting at never was good at all explaining things
I got the same vibe of the foreshadowing Sephiroth. I'm trying to look at everything as I've never played the OG. This helps me to be optimistic about the remake
I just hate it though. One ship make zero sense, other ship is poorly written. And they force us to choose
If it was real RPG, I'd do Playboy Cloud all day.
I don't know what Love Triangle is Confirmed means but if it means you get choices on how Cloud gets to treat other characters like in OG then I guess the player could just choose to be mean to everyone I mean if they really want? (or maybe there is more choices this time that player can be nice to like Jessie, Biggs, Wedge, Cid, etc)
I should clarify a bit, I hate LTD personally because the one we have is just unhealthy.
In the OG, SE played it both sides, player as Cloud could choose to reject everything and 20 years later we still have debate about Cloud's indecisiveness.
I cannot comprehend how can it improve character development? When your interpretation could be nonsensical one because SE clearly know what they are doing and they'll never give you one definitive answer, they even expanded further to AC. May be that was source of my hatred for that movie, DBZ fights was cool though.
Perhaps, people enjoy LTD but I honestly don't. I prefer a simple system where you can choose to flirt with everyone and the game still blatantly push you to one side. The FFX's one? Makes the ending so much easier to understand and it actually improve Yuna as a character.
End of rant. Thank you for reading my blog. Like share and subscrib... nah don't read too much into it . I just have too much free time.
Don't know if we'll actually fight him, but the last trailer shows him turning (reverting?) into Jenova and you fight that. So depends if you want to count that (or whether it's the "final" boss).
I also don't want Sephiroth as the final boss of part 1, but at the same time I hope we get to fight his human form at some point in the remake. Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth are awesome, but I'd also like to fight him as a SOLDIER.
The hard part is deciding how to frame that fight without making it stupid or forced.
I also don't want Sephiroth as the final boss of part 1, but at the same time I hope we get to fight his human form at some point in the remake. Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth are awesome, but I'd also like to fight him as a SOLDIER.
The hard part is deciding how to frame that fight without making it stupid or forced.
While I certainly wouldn't call that stupid or forced, I think there's merit in keeping it an easy victory as a storytelling device.
If I remember right, the leaks said there was a VR combat area. I think a fight with a virtual Sephiroth circa the Wutai War would scratch my itch perfectly.
Well, if we are talking about leaks, was Sephiroth confirmed the final boss? Dont know how to feel about that tbh. As with almost everything Square has been doing with the Remake, regarding story, it all depends on how the narrative is told. These changes all have their advantages and whatnot, but if the final game doesnt utilise that....well we know the rest.
@rkss: ah, like this, I understand the frustration and I agree. But to me in the OG, Cloud was a huge douche in the Midgard part lol so there's that too, the fact that he isn't himself, etc. make an interesting combo. I do agree that I'd rather have a linear default of some sort, rather than to have to look in improbable Ultimanias eons after, to know what SE considers as "canon". Or a canon ending, at the very very least. But they may be too hung on doing it like the OG tho, so it's unlikely.
The leaks imply a fight against Sephiroth, but other data surrounding it is lacking compared to others, so the prevailing theory is that it's essentially a playable cutscene - a dream state, or a pre-Jenova skirmish, or something like that.
My biggest concern right now - really, my only active concern that isn't in "well let's wait and see" mode - is the the Whispers. I'm putting together a big post about it, but the long and the short is that there are almost no contexts in which I can see them working.
My biggest concern right now - really, my only active concern that isn't in "well let's wait and see" mode - is the the Whispers. I'm putting together a big post about it, but the long and the short is that there are almost no contexts in which I can see them working.
Personally, I think the OG+Compilation already gave a pretty definitive/explicit conclusion to the endgame of the romantic relationships, even if the details getting there allowed for some player variability, but that's just me.
As for Sephiroth in the Remake, we already know there's gonna be a new Jenova boss fight, though based on it presumably taking place in the Shinra building, it's not the final very last boss fight. Also the trailers have shown Sephiroth popping up at some point on the Midgar highway (during the escape sequence, I assume), but as to whether that just from a cutscene, scripted sequence, or a legitimate boss fight is still unknown I believe.
Whoa, hey, I didn't say that - I just said that the implications surrounding them concern me enough to be worried about their inclusion.
As it stands, and as I see it, the Whispers are the biggest question mark of this whole project. Not only are they new, they occupy a space that was completely absent from the original, in that fate and destiny aren't major thematic or narrative elements of FFVII. Already, that places them apart from stuff like Roche, or More Sephiroth, or an early parachuting mission - those things all have established contexts that they could happen in. The Whispers don't fit the original puzzle from the word go. Now, this isn't the original puzzle, and indeed I think it's important to keep in mind that what doesn't work in the context of the original may well work within the context of a story written to accommodate its inclusion from the start. I'm definitely not willing to write them off 100% just yet, and I'm definitely not writing off the game because of them. I'm just not a fan of some of the implications, which I try to sort through behind the spoiler cut.
**A bit of a disclaimer: these thoughts are based on discussion surrounding the leaks, and involve stuff that's mostly being reported second- or third-hand. I know full well that massive leaks like the one back in January are a breeding ground for misinformation, especially when the source is as jumbled as a datamine, and I don't even really have access to 100% of the stuff I've seen except in the Reddit posts repeating and discussing them (the original linked Pastebin description no longer exists, it seems). This are just my own musings based on what information I do know, and an explanation as to why the Whispers concern me when none of the other changes do.
Also, I'm sure this has already been discussed to death and none of these thoughts are things that haven't been expressed before, but bear with me here.**
So what do we know about these Whisper things? Even with the leaks, and assuming they're to be believed at all, precious little - and we're unlikely to see the full picture in this first installment. There are a couple alleged snippets that I find especially interesting though:
(1) Red XIII's description of them as "drawn to those who attempt to alter destiny's course and ensure they do not."
(2) The enemy description of some Whispers that read: "The physical manifestations of future destiny, they fight with swords to protect the future that shaped them." Two similar ones exist, except they fight barehanded and with guns instead of with swords.
There are also a few other little details - alleged plot points where Cloud avoids taking Jessie on a mission because she feels they were "targeting her specifically," and apparently a bit where a character is silenced by a Whisper before saying something plot-altering/revealing (which I really, really hope is a misread of something, because that sounds like the dumbest thing ever). There's also apparently a sequence during a final fight against a Whisper-Bahamut where the characters see some ruined future - the contents of that future obviously aren't visible in a dialog transcript, but are likely to add quite a lot to this conversation.
Anyways, the above makes me think that one of the three possibilities are most likely:
(1) The Whispers are trying to keep the characters from doing things differently and altering the course of the original game. This is the least ideal possibility, because it removes agency from the heroes. The story is more interesting when they're doing stuff by their own volition, and if there are these beings explicitly trying to keep things from "veering off course," then the story is explicitly and openly not being driven by the actions of its characters. Furthermore, if this is the direction being taken, then that opens the door to a whole slew of meta nonsense that I'd really not have as a distraction from what looks to otherwise be a lovingly recreated retelling - especially when considering the descriptions of the Whispers who fight with "fists, guns, and swords to protect the future that shaped them" (oh hey who do we know that has weapons like that).
(2) The Whispers are trying to influence the characters so that they do what is necessary to achieve the plot. This might seem like a small distinction, but it's a bit preferable to (1), in that characters have agency and are just being subtly guided. I just think it's really silly, and reeks of Toriyama tacking on Fate and Destiny Just Because. It could end up being integrated well, of course, I'm just not a fan of it conceptually. VII has enough themes without a whole to do about beings trying to control Fate and Destiny being behind the events of the plot; that's something that suits the narrative of XIII far better than VII.
(3) The fate stuff is all superstition, and the Whispers are elements of the Planet that are being controlled by Sephiroth to fuck with us or whatever. By far the best option, and probably the one that has the best chance of being worked into the existing story organically.
I'm curious what others think, or if there's a piece of the puzzle I'm missing (besides, y'know, the full game) - interviews, conceptual context, anything. They just seem like something that's a bit extra, and not in the fun Sephiroth kind of way.
It's literally just dramatic, semantic flourish to describe the cycle of souls and all encompassing will of the planet. The planet carries its own sentient will and desire to protect itself and maintain balance. The planet is also alive. Those who believe and adhere to the Planet Theory of Spirit Energy can interpret this interconnection of factors as a metaphor for fate or destiny. Not in the literal temporal sense, but the interconnected influence of wills from a life form greater than humans.
The enemies you're describing are
whispers taking the shape of the player characters, created by Sephiroth to stop you.
They follow and adhere to Sephiroth's will, thereby implying that Sephiroth's own will has hijacked and become the "future" that the planet seeks to pursue and follow. None of those other points even make coherent sense because their actions are contradictory, the only commonality in their actions is they assist Sephiroth. In fact, Sephiroth is more than likely a manifestation of the Whispers himself.
And the vision Sephiroth shows Cloud is a world destroyed by a giant, planetary cataclysm. Sound familiar? Sephiroth describes the destruction of all life as good for the planet and the destiny that the planet wishes to see unfold.
Sephiroth has attributed his will and goals to destiny before, as well as in various other spin off appearances. Like his own crossover in Mobius Final Fantasy's Eclipse Contact. Which was also written by Nojima and produced by Kitase.
So yeah. The attribution or inclusion of "fate" and "destiny" isn't that dramatic. Not in the literal sense.
The information that I saw, though, gave me cause to worry. You've seen a more complete set of data than I have, which provides a clear picture that makes it obvious the less-desirable use of the Whispers aren't the case - the stuff I saw left it pretty open to possibility still, hence the concern.
I share the same concern, and will continue to until at least April 10. Mako's conviction that there is no cause for concern seems to mostly stem from a) anime-esque villains often talk that way, and b) it would be fucking stupid for the developers to do that, so why would they? There's nothing yet confirming that we don't have cause for concern, though, when we have more than just Sephiroth using those words here, and long-running franchises such as "Mortal Kombat," "Soulcalibur," and "Star Trek" have all recently dipped their toes in that very water.
As well, the fact remains that these words and the way they have been utilized lends to at the very least some major meta-winking at the player -- and at worst, some absolute thematic and narrative derailment.
For reference. This is from 2017's FFVII-R collaboration from Mobius, Toriyama directed and Kitase produced.
Sephiroth 01:03: It's time. Wake to your fate. Rise to your destiny.
Cloud: Reunion....
Sephiroth 09:38: Remember Cloud, the destiny we were given. Remember. The Reunion!
Sephiroth 11:11: In time, those who bear the burden of despair will answer destiny's call and lend me their strength.
Sephiroth 24:04: Even were I to fall into the sea of chaos, lose all memory, become a soulless shell. In time, destiny would call to me, and I would answer. My memories would return, and I would make for the Promised Land.
The similarity is intentional. Sephiroth's dialogue is heavily inspired by megalomaniacal deification. It references their own actions, choices and motives as motivated and guided by divine predestination. Sephiroth's divinity complex simply colors his entire speech and manner of presentation due to the fact he sees himself as a god and above all else.
Red XIII's dialogue is a metaphor of how the Planet's own will to self sustain and survive expresses itself via the Lifestream. Which encompasses it's overarching collective will and spirit.
Red XIII: They are drawn to those who attempt to alter destiny's course and ensure they do not.
Tifa: Like capital D... "Destiny"?
Red XIII: The flow of the great river that is the planet, from inception to oblivion.
Tifa: And you're saying that that flow is somehow...fixed?
Red XIII: Yes. For it is the will of the planet itself.
The attribution of "destiny" is attributed to the concept of "planetary will." Red XIII is saying the will of the planet and it's desire to guide and protect it's own course, is protected by the Arbiters of Fate. Enforcers for the planet. It's merely a new perspective and description for the same concept of planetary spiritual consciousness. There is no temporal or paradoxical element to this. It's the planet.
