SPOILERS FFVII Remake Frustration Expression Thread (*Open Spoilers*)

[Obsidian Fire]

Making this because I don't want to be a downer in all the other threads where everyone is excited for the Remake. But sometimes I do want to vent about things... I figured other people might like that too...

Currently... The music is probably the biggest disappointment to me. For all a lot of people say pop (and possibly rock) music don't have a place in a fantasy game, the original FFVII had plenty of rock and electronic music elements in it. Red XIII's Theme, Turk's Theme, Those Who Fight Further, Crazy Motercycle, Search for the Man in the Black Mantel, J-E-N-O-V-A, Mark of the Traitor, Cosmo Canyon, The Voice of the Planet can be Heard, Perfect Jenova, Birth of a God... There's a whole slew of music from the OG that all need electronic sound in them to feel right. And... pretty much all the music I've heard so far is just so over-orchestrated it's lost what makes it sound like video game music as opposed to concert music. It just feels... like average orchestral arrangements of the themes.

Really, looking at who the two main composers are explains a lot of that. Masashi Hamauzu did DoC and FFXIII and the best thing I can say about those games OST is that they have nice ambient music. What are his main themes feel "meh" to me compared to Umetsu's. To the point I don't remember them until I have to look them up because someone mentioned them. The same thing goes for Mitsuto Suzuki who did FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns.

IDK. I just think there's something off with the music when I want the original midi themes back and not the new stuff. Because the new stuff doesn't sound like what FFVII is supposed to sound like to me...

 

[Ite]

You’ll be hearing a lot from me in this thread in the coming years lol. There’s plenty about this Remake that is 100% imagination-to-reality dream-come-true for me, but as we get closer to release, there are now just as many things that are cringe-inducing at best, and Last Order levels of narrative departure at worst. I want to reserve judgement until I’ve played it... but at this point I feel like the place I feel most at home is a downer thread

 

[Odysseus]

I'm not disappointed at all yet, quite the contrary. But I will say that there are things that make me concerned, mostly with them dragging elements from later in the game into midgar (the cargo ship sephiroth encounter now being at shinra HQ, Leviathan not being saved for wutai.) So there's definitely potential for dissatisfaction still.

 

[ForceStealer]

I just enjoy this from a told-you-so angle of people being so terrified that the remake would be over-rocked, and I thought it was more likely that it would be over-orchestrated. but really I don't belong in a downer thread. But the added violin run at 0:58 of the new battle theme is inspired, and you can't convince me otherwise

I will say, about Hamauzu, my main complaint with him is his refusal to indulge in leitmotifs. But Silent Edge, Archylte Steppe, and the related Sunleth Waterscape were highly enjoyable songs for me.

I do hope there's a version of Those Who Fight Further with electric guitar.
And also the electric guitar is one of my favorite elements of Cosmo Canyon because of its contrast to the rest of the piece, and I don't expect to get it.

EDIT: I was drunk when I wrote this, so sorry it's a little scattershot, haha

 

[clowd]

My biggest concern: They wont capture the feeling of sadness and despair the original had in the Midgar section.

FFVII was about how the superb atmosphere, imagery, and music made you feel as much as it was about the story and characters. That's what made it so memorable and loved. This is where Im pretty sure the remake will come up short but I really hope Im wrong. It will be fun regardless

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They had better keep electric de chocobo is all I'm saying. Wipeout!

My years in fanfiction are serving me well now. For me, the Remake is just that: a big glossy AU.

The thing about the OG is that it had the atmosphere, the imagery, the marvellous music, but it also added a fourth ingredient: your imagination. Like all the best fiction, it was a work the player co-created with the authors, and its genius lay in the way it invited you in and then enabled you to do that. I don't play enough video games to know if that's possible with today's CGI. It aims for a hyperrealism that invites you to sit back and watch. It's a self-driving car (literally, in the case of FFXV's Regalia). Whereas FFVII was stick.

The only game I've ever played that comes close to FFVII levels of enchantment is Fire Emblem: Three Houses, a very stylised, cartoony game, where the characters have maybe a half a dozen facial expressions and move in battle like pieces on a chessboard. The voice acting in that game is outstanding; the Remake can't hold a candle to it. Those VAs bring their characters to life. Like FFVII, their world doesn't look real, but my god, it feels real.

 

[Misterbadguy]

I'm not a huge fan of the overuse of Those Who Fight/Those Who Fight Further that seems to be happening. I get them being used a lot for trailers, even if it is annoying, but the use in the squats minigame is a bit much for me.

 

[oty]

I'd say I'm not worried about what the Remake is gonna change, but more what it wont improve I guess?

I always thought that, specially with voice actors and realistic models, they could make a more profound and humane approach to characters, that would make them feel more like actual human beings than just limited characters. Of course that, they woudnt show that in trailers and such, but I've seen other stuff and..I dont know.

Recently, I've been more and more impressed by the way these technologies have been used. Uncharted 4 was impulsed by this technology. God of War brought a touching history. And I always believed that was the best thing about FFXV, and the thing Square should keep for next games (even if it could be improved greatly, yes I'm looking at you repetitive lines during exploration).

I definitely need to play the game to see tho, so I'm gonna wait to see.

 

[Lex]

I just enjoy this from a told-you-so angle of people being so terrified that the remake would be over-rocked, and I thought it was more likely that it would be over-orchestrated. but really I don't belong in a downer thread. But the added violin run at 0:58 of the new battle theme is inspired, and you can't convince me otherwise

I will say, about Hamauzu, my main complaint with him is his refusal to indulge in leitmotifs. But Silent Edge, Archylte Steppe, and the related Sunleth Waterscape were highly enjoyable songs for me.

I do hope there's a version of Those Who Fight Further with electric guitar.
And also the electric guitar is one of my favorite elements of Cosmo Canyon because of its contrast to the rest of the piece, and I don't expect to get it.

EDIT: I was drunk when I wrote this, so sorry it's a little scattershot, haha

Agree with all of this, though I was probably the foremost person worried they'd over-rock the soundtrack (because of JENOVA in AC and a lot of other tracks). I think I said it quite a few times in previous podcasts, I remember Vader disagreeing with me because he loves the rock tracks and thought the soundtrack needed more of it, but it was my worst fear. There was a weird phase where everything related to FFVII was so 14 year old edgelord Pantera fan realness. Everything was a fucking metal cover.

Now don't misunderstand me, I'm here for rock/metal any day of the week. I grew up on classic rock, I spent my teenage years listening almost exclusively to metal, I'm a huge fan of the genre. And it has its place in the VII soundtrack (hopefully in the remake too). I just didn't want them to overdo it.

I also don't belong in this thread atm, because I love everything I've heard so far. But I do also hope there's an electric guitar version of the boss theme, and a synth JENOVA theme (that track has never been re-done right. The Distant Worlds version is great but it's not what I'm looking for).

 

[LNK]

I think when they go full on rock, or pop and it doesn't fit with the rest of the soundtrack, it just sounds off. Some of my favorite scores are ones that have a more cohesive feel to it. Karate Kid 2, Uncharted 4 and God of War (ps4) are a few of my favorites. Don't get me wrong though, I still like the song. It just doesn't fit, to me. I guess I'll see when I actually hear it in game

 

[leadmyskeptic]

So far, main "ughhh":

Spoiler: Data leak spoilers

Even though I expected it, the seemingly strong downplaying (if not outright softening) of Avalanche's role as Eco-TERRORISTS. Meaning, their actions are supposed to have lead to the DEATHS of NUMEROUS CIVILIANS. Seems like RM is trying to make them more akin to "Cheerful Corporate Inconveniencers"

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sorry but I gotta comment.

Spoiler: Reply to leadmyskeptic's post about leaked spoilers

...What "downplaying?"

They still attacked the reactors, attacked Shinra, and killed innocents in open conflict with the company.

I never understood this criticism or concern over the perceived terror-cred of AVALANCHE in this.

And let's be clear about something. Painting Barret, Cloud, Tifa and the others with the broad brush of "terrorism" is just as clumsy and reductionist as sanitizing and absolving them of their guilt for their attacks against Shinra.

The Shinra Electric Power Company was a threat to humanity and the planet. They were killing not just the entire planet through the sucking of Lifestream for energy, they conquered any civilization that opposed them, were experimenting and killing innocent people with impunity, all while creating monster-babies that grew up to become threats to the entire planet. They ruled the entire world with no real opposition and were the worst of the worst. They obliterated cultures and governments to monopolize and consolidate their power.

Asymmetrical warfare against a mightier state-sponsored corporatist dictatorship is inherently messy, violent, and dangerous due to the entire structure of the society, government and media being in opposition to any form of change or equality for the people. The deck is, and always would be stacked in Shinra's favor, with their innocent employees on the front line, propping up their unjust and immoral corporation.

So what would anyone fighting for justice, freedom and the life of the planet have do to properly fight Shinra and not potentially risk mass damage, loss of life or property? Stage a protest? Ask nicely for Shinra to not be evil, callous and murderous overlords?

Barret wanted revenge for the death of his family, town and livelihood and got innocent people killed but he was also fighting to stop Shinra from objectively and unequivocally killing the entire planet. And to pretend Shinra bears no culpability, or responsibility for the deaths of those innocent lives, is again, just as clumsy and black & white in terms of perspective.

They both were wrong in resorting to violence, but when a corporation commits the most egregious forms of crimes against humanity and the planet and are ruling the world with an iron fist, what other recourse is there? That's a collision of two trains on the same track, with one train purposefully going onto said track because its bigger, stronger, and willing to kill all it's passengers because "goddamnit, this is my track and I don't intend to surrender it to anybody. If people die in order for me to keep on this track, so be it."

Let's not pretend otherwise and make this about AVALANCHE and how they were just as bad as Shinra. They weren't. They were misguided, messy and responsible for innocent lives lost, but even Reeve acknowledged Shinra were the real enemies all along.

By this perceived logic, the Returners, Garden, Yuna's guardians, Ashe and her crew, and many others were culpable and terrorists as well. Because, hey, they took innocent lives and opposed the state. Come. On.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Makoeyes987
I don't think you were responding to what you think you were. LOL

Also, both you and @leadmyskeptic : remember to mark your spoilers if you're referencing the datamine info outside the datamine thread.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sorry for the lack of tags, and I was referring to the perception that in the Remake,

Spoiler

because AVALANCHE's first bomb attempt was a dud and subsequently corrected by Shinra to initiate a propaganda war to flush out AVALANCHE, it somehow absolves or softens their own responsibility for the lives lost in their fight against Shinra.

It really doesn't. And it's a radical simplification of the conflict that Cloud, Barret, Tifa and the others had with Shinra. The entire premise and purpose of the argument between Barret and Cait Sith was over the value of life. It was brought on by the fact Barret gave no thought towards the innocent lives at risk from Diamond Weapon's attack, and only cared about Marlene. He lost sight of the value and importance in protecting innocent lives outside in his pursuit of revenge, fighting Shinra.

That doesn't nullify the entire purpose of fighting Shinra, their crimes against humanity, their oppression of the planet's populous, or the threat that Shinra posed to the entire planet.

Barret gave no fucks over the lives of the citizenry that were at risk from Diamond Weapon and was doing the same cold, callous disregard for human life he chided Shinra over, and Reeve was fed up over it. Barret was being a hypocrite. And it was a callout for not owning up to the fact that in fighting Shinra, he placed his revenge and hate for Shinra over saving life, becoming just as warped in his thinking like them. It was not equivocating Shinra and AVALANCHE as the same.

And nothing in the Remake's changing that message.

 

[Theozilla]

Sorry for the lack of tags, and I was referring to the perception that in the Remake,

Spoiler

because AVALANCHE's first bomb attempt was a dud and subsequently corrected by Shinra to initiate a propaganda war to flush out AVALANCHE, it somehow absolves or softens their own responsibility for the lives lost in their fight against Shinra.

It really doesn't. And it's a radical simplification of the conflict that Cloud, Barret, Tifa and the others had with Shinra. The entire premise and purpose of the argument between Barret and Cait Sith was over the value of life. It was brought on by the fact Barret gave no thought towards the innocent lives at risk from Diamond Weapon's attack, and only cared about Marlene. He lost sight of the value and importance in protecting innocent lives outside in his pursuit of revenge, fighting Shinra.

That doesn't nullify the entire purpose of fighting Shinra, their crimes against humanity, their oppression of the planet's populous, or the threat that Shinra posed to the entire planet.

Barret gave no fucks over the lives of the citizenry that were at risk from Diamond Weapon and was doing the same cold, callous disregard for human life he chided Shinra over, and Reeve was fed up over it. Barret was being a hypocrite. And it was a callout for not owning up to the fact that in fighting Shinra, he placed his revenge and hate for Shinra over saving life, becoming just as warped in his thinking like them. It was not equivocating Shinra and AVALANCHE as the same.

And nothing in the Remake's changing that message.

Great analysis, though I have bit a quibble with some of the specifics you described, namely it’s more accurate to say that

Spoiler

Avalanche’s bomb in the Remake wasn’t a dud (because it still exploded), but rather it changes it so that Jessie’s bomb construction actually had been put together correctly. As in the OG, Jessie comments that the bomb explosion was bigger than she intended/expected, implying that maybe she made an error in its construction. So the Remake changes it to the bomb being as big as it was supposed to be and only destroyed the main mako processing unit, instead of the entire reactor.

 

[Tetsujin]

I also don't belong in this thread atm, because I love everything I've heard so far. But I do also hope there's an electric guitar version of the boss theme, and a synth JENOVA theme (that track has never been re-done right. The Distant Worlds version is great but it's not what I'm looking for).

^This, I want a proper updated version of JENOVA but I'd bet on the fact we'll get an orchestrated version yet again and just like all the other versions post-FFVII it'll have the longer Black Mages intro for whatever reason (I always disliked that intro and it annoys me it pops up in every other arrangement it seems )

I mean, parts of the original sound like they are supposed to be string instruments and such anyway but I just want to keep that techno-like untz untz beat and that part that kinds sounds like that Stranger Things intro synth but played faster

 

[JBedford]

The changes SE have made regarding the bombing are them trying to lessen Avalanche's responsibility. Why else would they they be making those changes? Avalanche are still obviously going to feel the same guilt they do in the OG, but they've deliberately made Avalanche less directly responsible.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Spoiler

The changes SE have made regarding the bombing are them trying to lessen Avalanche's responsibility. Why else would they they be making those changes? Avalanche are still obviously going to feel the same guilt they do in the OG, but they've deliberately made Avalanche less directly responsible.

Or.

They're emphasizing the malicious and conniving characters of President Shinra and Heidegger in their attempt to flesh out and expand their role as solid, cold-hearted villains in an expanded story that will showcase them far more than they were before.

Again. Somehow attempting to conflate or broad-brush painting AVALANCHE as terrorists in a oppressive, corporate owned world government that rules the planet, is killing said planet, and any individuals that stand in their way, is the most bizarre over-simplification I've seen in terms of AVALANCHE's place in the story. No, it's really not about lessening responsibility over a body count or property damage in a fight Shinra started and was more than willing to see to the bitter end, in their selfish consolidation of power.

It was about the value of human life. Barret's personal issue and problem wasn't the fact he joined AVALANCHE or attacked Shinra. It was the fact he said it was under the auspices of saving the planet and its people, yet those sentiments were lost in his hatred and revenge towards Shinra and his desire to protect only extended to those in front of him. He acted no better than the Shinra Company he so dedicated his life to destroy. There's a clear thread of hypocrisy in that perspective towards innocent life and that was the point, not to say AVALANCHE was wrong, were terrorists or at fault for trying to fight Shinra when Shinra clearly needed to be fought. By that logic, Wutai certainly was wrong to target Shinra and try to fight back and overthrow Shinra to free their homeland as well.

 

[Theozilla]

I agree with Makoeyes987’s analysis regarding the likely motivation motivation behind Remake changes and how it ultimately doesn’t really change the point/themes/impact of the narrative and/or character arcs (Barret’s in particular). But it is still a change that makes the

Spoiler

culpability of the Reactor 1 destruction more directly shared between Avalanche and Shinra in comparison to the OG, even if the intention behind the change wasn’t done with that specific motivation in mind.

To make a analogy, it sorta like how George Lucas added extra deleted/new scenes to parts of the original Star Wars trilogy, said scenes don’t change the themes/arcs of the OT but they do reveal/modify additional information. And some people just don’t care for said changes, regardless of whether they change themes/arcs or not.

 

[JBedford]

Something that definitely didn't need to be emphasised was Shinra's totally-evilness. FFVII already makes that abundantly clear when they drop the Sector 7 plate.

I'm not arguing with you about the themes of the game.

Spoiler

FFVII had the player start in a terrorist group, and it is fully your actions in the bombing of the North Mako Reactor that lead to innocent people dying.

Whether or not it was fully their intention, Avalanche did it. And they justify it to themselves.

But in Remake we know Avalanche actually didn't do shit. Cloud doesn't even set the useless goddamn bomb. They don't even let the player think Avalanche is responsible because they immediately go into showing Totally-Evil Inc. being totally evil.

Even if the writers think they have a justifiable reason for the changes, I don't believe for a second they didn't know the significance of what they were changing. You might not think it necessary for the themes and shit, but it is still a significant detail to many players.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I really don't see how you're arguing your position with a straight avatar, @Makoeyes987 -- the evil manner in which President Shinra and Heidegger throw away civilian lives was already thoroughly communicated with Sector 7. And while

Spoiler

the change won't impact the characters' point of view about the situation, it will have an effect on how players digest scenes in which the characters mention their guilt or deny/accept having caused harm. Because the player will know it wasn't actually the characters' fault, even if the characters never do.

So, that brings us back to JBedford's point: the change literally affects nothing but how players view the members of Avalanche vis-a-vis the civilian deaths resulting from the reactor blowing up. Ergo, the change almost certainly was made for that purpose.

Also, why do you keep harping over the use of the word "terrorist"? That's what they are.

 

[Ite]

The word terrorist has been so obfuscated by the Post 9/11 media blitz that it’s a word almost without meaning anymore. AVALANCHE was driven to causing acts that directly destroy the lives of civilians, and they knew that when they did it. The OG follows through on that, while the Remake narratively spares them of the responsibility. Now, Cait Sith’s argument can be replaced by:

Spoiler: LEAKS

“Hey Barret, there’s something I always wanted to ask you. When you almost blew up the first Mako Reactor before Shinra got the 1st Rays to fire on the core before the bomb could go off, definitively and explicitly blowing it up instead of you, how many innocents do you think died, because of Shinra’s (but almost your) actions?”

It IS different, and the frustration is justified.

New gripe, one of the big ones from the new trailer: when I saw Red XIII, one of my first thoughts was “Oh... so there’s basically no lighting in this game.” Floor 67 of Shinra HQ is one of the coolest sci-fi labs I can think of and it looks like this:



Not another black hallway.... and the new Jenova chamber looks exactly like the Remake’s mako reactor. And Shinra’s wide, echoing, pearlescent office is now... black. It’s so bland. Ugh. The character models are the only things They seem to care about, but they might as well be having all their scenes in that mind-room in Evangelion.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Obviously Shinra is evil and Avalanche is not. But you don't have to be evil to be guilty.Barret and Tifa's guilt (and Avalanche's) is really important. It's about how violence begets violence and evil begets evil. If Tifa and Barret are guilty of nothing, if they're pure victims, then they need no redemption. I think this change is reflective of a profound change in our world, a return to simplistic black-and-white thinking, and a loss of belief in, or interest in, forgiveness. If you do one bad thing, you can never come back from that. You are bad and cancelled forever.

Shinra and Avalanche's shared guilt is also about how none of them have a fucking clue what they're really fighting about. The real danger is something different and much more menacing and they should be cooperating together against it, not fighting each other.

 

[Odysseus]

Spoiler: Leak spoilers

Here's my take on this debate, now that I've spoiled this bit for myself. We live in a post 9/11 world. No company is going to want to make their protagonists building exploding terrorists anymore. So while this change doesn't thrill me, I understand why it is being made. Here's a hot take: This change in no way makes our heroes any less guilty for those civilian deaths.

Barret still intended to take the reactor out, and while the level of damage may not have been the intention, the ramifications of power lost surely were. Failed medical equipment, deaths due to infrastructure and transportation shutting down unexpectedly, those were all part of the plan. Avalanche is also still responsible, though less directly, for the damage. Had they not instigated this conflict, shinra wouldn't have blown the reactor themselves. Now Avalanche are just the idiots who played into Shinra's schemes.

The idea that shinra knew what they were doing already isn't exactly unprecedented even in the original, anyway. Shinra was able to pre-empt them at Reactor 5, and allowed that bomb to go off too, in order to further their propaganda scheme.

So while I don't think this change was necessary, I don't think it suddenly makes our heroes better people either.

 

[Theozilla]

The word terrorist has been so obfuscated by the Post 9/11 media blitz that it’s a word almost without meaning anymore. AVALANCHE was driven to causing acts that directly destroy the lives of civilians, and they knew that when they did it. The OG follows through on that, while the Remake narratively spares them of the responsibility. Now, Cait Sith’s argument can be replaced by:

Spoiler: LEAKS

“Hey Barret, there’s something I always wanted to ask you. When you almost blew up the first Mako Reactor before Shinra got the 1st Rays to fire on the core before the bomb could go off, definitively and explicitly blowing it up instead of you, how many innocents do you think died, because of Shinra’s (but almost your) actions?”

It IS different, and the frustration is justified.

Okay, I know this is being kinda pedantic, but actually

Spoiler: LEAKS

Avalanche's bomb does go off in the Remake, the damage it causes only just breaks/disables the main reactor core, Shinra then just exacerbates the damage to the core to make the the entire reactor explode. Avalanche still shares some culpability in the Remake scenario. It's like if eco-terrorists blew up part of a dam and some flooding was beginning, but then the dam owners exacerbated the damage to make the dame completely break and violently flood.

It's a (relatively) small detail, but it's still a significant difference from how you're describing it.

New gripe, one of the big ones from the new trailer: when I saw Red XIII, one of my first thoughts was “Oh... so there’s basically no lighting in this game.” Floor 67 of Shinra HQ is one of the coolest sci-fi labs I can think of and it looks like this:

View attachment 4707

Not another black hallway.... and the new Jenova chamber looks exactly like the Remake’s mako reactor. And Shinra’s wide, echoing, pearlescent office is now... black. It’s so bland. Ugh. The character models are the only things They seem to care about, but they might as well be having all their scenes in that mind-room in Evangelion.

I think you're unfairly prejudging the Floor 67 lab a bit, we barely saw any of it in the trailer, there's no reason to assume that what we saw in the medium and close-up shots of Red XIII represents the entirety of what we see in the lab.


EDIT:
Like this is the most we see of the lab, and it's definitely only a small part of the floor in it's entirety, and it's presumably after Hojo and the other workers have run off, so we don't know what it looked like when it was active.

Especially when other parts of the Shinra Building we've seen wide shots of have been well lit and with fancy decor.

Spoiler: Leak spoilers

Here's my take on this debate, now that I've spoiled this bit for myself. We live in a post 9/11 world. No company is going to want to make their protagonists building exploding terrorists anymore. So while this change doesn't thrill me, I understand why it is being made. Here's a hot take: This change in no way makes our heroes any less guilty for those civilian deaths.

Barret still intended to take the reactor out, and while the level of damage may not have been the intention, the ramifications of power lost surely were. Failed medical equipment, deaths due to infrastructure and transportation shutting down unexpectedly, those were all part of the plan. Avalanche is also still responsible, though less directly, for the damage. Had they not instigated this conflict, shinra wouldn't have blown the reactor themselves. Now Avalanche are just the idiots who played into Shinra's schemes.

The idea that shinra knew what they were doing already isn't exactly unprecedented even in the original, anyway. Shinra was able to pre-empt them at Reactor 5, and allowed that bomb to go off too, in order to further their propaganda scheme.

So while I don't think this change was necessary, I don't think it suddenly makes our heroes better people either.

Yeah, this is largely how I feel about this specific

Spoiler: Leak spoilers

change as well. The change doesn't make Avalanche less guilty (especially since they did succeed in breaking/disabling the reactor core, which would be the equivalent of causing a major blackout in the section of a large metropolis), it's just making Avalanche's guilty/culpability shared with Shinra.