I sure as shit hope so, homie, but you're veering into wishful thinking when you say there's no temporal element to this. The in-game descriptions are explicit:
"Creatures that appear when someone tries to change destiny's course. They are connected to all the threads of time and space that shape the planet's future."
"The physical manifestations of future destiny, they fight [barehanded/with swords/with guns] to protect the future that shaped them."
as in time travel. And nothing in the plot, dialogue or anything else in game references an element of actual time travel or interdimensionaliality. It's always in reference to "the planet." "Time and space" can simply be a flourished definition of "placement in reality within the current frame of time." Just like "Time and space" magic references time, gravity and quake magic. It's not literal time travel between past and future.
And that last Sense description is for the Whisper copies of the heroes Sephiroth creates and sics on them. They aren't literal future versions of Cloud, Tifa and Barret trying to kill their past. They're manifestations of the intended "future" the planet intends to create alongside Sephiroth. It simply lines up with how they've referred to Sephiroth and the planet as an entities beyond just merely a sum of it's parts. But a divine, and cosmic sentient entity that charts its own path. Red XIII even refers to the Whispers as "her last line of defense. I doubt it will be easy." Speaking in reference to fighting them again. They're a planetary mechanism to protect. And Sephiroth (or at least a version of him operating through the game,) is crafted out of these things too.
as in time travel. And nothing in the plot, dialogue or anything else in game references an element of actual time travel or interdimensionaliality. It's always in reference to "the planet."
But you've not seen the whole of the plot or dialogue to be able to definitively say this. It's just what you -- and I, for that matter -- sincerely hope is the case.
Mako said:
"Time and space" can simply be a flourished definition of "placement in reality within the current frame of time."
"They are connected to all the threads of time and space"
equals
"They are connected to all the threads of the current frame of time"?
=|
Mako said:
And that last Sense description is for the Whisper copies of the heroes Sephiroth creates and sics on them. They aren't literal future versions of Cloud, Tifa and Barret trying to kill their past. They're manifestations of the intended "future" the planet intends to create alongside Sephiroth. It simply lines up with how they've referred to Sephiroth and the planet as an entities beyond just merely a sum of it's parts. But a divine, and cosmic sentient entity that charts its own path.
But you've not seen the whole of the plot or dialogue to be able to definitively say this. It's just what you -- and I, for that matter -- sincerely hope is the case.
You're right, that is the case, and we'll know for sure in a month. However, the percentage and portions of the plot/dialogue that have been revealed, don't offer much logical placement for a huge, and frankly climactic revelation as this. Other critical points in the story are mapped in the script at corresponding and fitting points, but missing is such a bizarre reference to time travel. Something that would have likely appeared in the respective chapters mentioning these whispers and etc, where it'd be relevant. But yeah, anything's possible; I just see this time travel possibility as simply close to nil.
"They are connected to all the threads of time and space"
equals
"They are connected to all the threads of the current frame of time"?
I mean, yeah. "Present time, and all space surrounding the planet." It'll be interesting to see what the original Japanese wording of that sensor is, because it really sounds like dramatic flourish typical of Final Fantasy. And really, sensor descriptions aren't going to elucidate plot elements outside or divergent from the main plot.
Also, the Japanese name for Time Magic is literally called "Time and Space Magic" in all FF's that reference the category "Time" magic. The simple ubiquitous spells of Haste, Slow, Stop, etc all are spells that effect "Time and Space." It's not anything as heavy or plot intensive as time travel. Just "magic that effects time and the space surrounding."
Oh and another example of my point, are Luxord and Xigbar. In Kingdom Hearts, they're stated as Org members controlling the elements of time and space respectively. Yet... Xigbar certainly doesn't manipulate or create vacuum's or warp enemies into outer space, and Luxord cannot time travel literal sense. They merely teleport and have capabilities of manipulating the passage of time. Time and space don't have to always refer to the sci-fi concept of time travel.
The tricky thing about foreshadowing is that it often seems bludgingly obvious when you know the story, and...well, we all know the story. Most of those little things that Aerith does can only be interpreted as foreshadowing in hindsight - none of them are what might be traditionally considered to be "death flags"; nothing about them screams "LOOK LOOK SHE'S GOING TO DIE!" to the uninitiated.
As for the Chapter 2 scene: while we've all only heard this sequence described secondhand and thus can't really analyze the nuances of its approach, what we have heard actually sounds like a clever bit of misdirection, moreso than anything else.
Obviously, Sephiroth's actions can be seen as the game foreshadowing his failure to save Aerith, but in its immediate context, it reads more like his his failure to save the people of Nibelheim, not in the least because it follows hallucinations of Cloud's hometown burning to ash (rather than, say, a location resembling the Northern Crater). The fact that he chooses Aerith to taunt Cloud with, then, comes across as her being a person currently in danger that Cloud will fail to save in the moment, not a person who will later die.
We'll see what this all looks like when the whole of the text is available to us, but based on what we know, it's not something that actively spoils anything for new players, while at best it provides a bit of playful manipulation of expectations.
That is my opinion for those of us who know what will happen to aerith is pretty much legend now but at same time I want new players and fans to experience that themselves without us spoiling it for them in some stupid obvious way lol know what I mean I try carefully not to do that cause I want them to see for themselves of course there are those who I seen that are utterly shocked by such who played the original and I often find myself going like dude you knew this was gonna happen why so surprised? And I am getting off topic lol
Okay well after reading all that, I'll add myself to the "concerned about the guardians of fate" list. At the moment, based on Mako's arguement,
it seems like they're meant to be a physical representation of causality, to guide cause and effect to an end the Planet desires. Or perhaps more accurately, they're there to ensure nobody else messes with it. If that's all it is, and it's just there to more visibly showcase the battle between sephiroth and the world itself, fine. Whatever. Sounds good m8. But if Sephiroth can literally show cloud the future, does that not imply time travel? I see why Shademp was concerned that this was post compilation Sephiroth coming back in time to mess with things now. I really don't want any time travel.
The game’s co-director Naoki Hamaguchi recently described their team’s approach to the story of FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE:
“I’ve considered the following phrase important: respect for the original,” he said. "FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE takes on the challenge of creating something… that matches the current generation, while treating the captivating elements of the original game with respect.”
That’s apparent from what we played - all the major events of the game are there just as you’d hope. But there’s another important element too - as Hamaguchi-san himself says:
If the narrative of the FFVII Remake was underlied by
a time travel plot of Sephiroth attempting to erase his past and change the entire history of VII.... From the future of a hitherto unknown title....
This whole quote and interview would either be the biggest piss-take in gaming history or criminally, mind-numbingly out of touch with reality. Narrative and leaks interpretation aside, such a writing direction would swing so opposite of what they're saying, one would have to ask if they were somehow ignorant of what their very words even meant. It wouldn't make sense.
"Respect for the original" sorta scratches out a plot that fundamentally attempts erasure of the original story via a convoluted ouroboros timeline scheme that simply subverts the entirety of what FFVII is. And I simply don't believe they'd say that and literally do the opposite. Nothing so fundamentally changes in the Remake story to hint at that direction.
Sephiroth showed Cloud and Tifa the past of Nibelheim in the Northern Crater in the OG. Did that imply time travel? Jenova has the power to create illusions and hallucinations. Sephiroth can show someone anything he wants to.
Okay well after reading all that, I'll add myself to the "concerned about the guardians of fate" list. At the moment, based on Mako's arguement,
it seems like they're meant to be a physical representation of causality, to guide cause and effect to an end the Planet desires. Or perhaps more accurately, they're there to ensure nobody else messes with it. If that's all it is, and it's just there to more visibly showcase the battle between sephiroth and the world itself, fine. Whatever. Sounds good m8. But if Sephiroth can literally show cloud the future, does that not imply time travel? I see why Shademp was concerned that this was post compilation Sephiroth coming back in time to mess with things now. I really don't want any time travel.
, so I can't help but be concerned at them going the same way again. Mind you, I don't think they're going to, but in this final month paranoia is bound to run high.
You can see why that is small comfort, though, when your more palatable explanation for all this hinges on them using other words in bizarre fashion, yeah? XD
I can already tell just from the demo that I'm gonna love this game to pieces, a few contrived plot devices aren't about to change that. I just don't want to have to add an asterisk when I say "I like this game" to people.
You can see why that is small comfort, though, when your more palatable explanation for all this hinges on them using other words in bizarre fashion, yeah? XD
To be fair, the usage of terms like fate and destiny are only bizarre if you never played other JRPGs or watched much high fantasy/sci-fi shows before. Villains (and other characters) pontificating about fate (and being a reflection of their ego, than actual commentary about deterministic reality) is a staple of the genre.
To be fair, the usage of terms like fate and destiny are only bizarre if you never played other JRPGs or watched much high fantasy/sci-fi shows before. Villains (and other characters) pontificating about fate (and being a reflection of their ego, than actual commentary about deterministic reality) is a staple of the genre.
We're not concerned with what Sephiroth says. It's Red XIII's matter of course description and the voiceless in-game descriptions that definitely don't have anything to do with anyone's ego.
We're not concerned with what Sephiroth says. It's Red XIII's matter of course description and the voiceless in-game descriptions that definitely don't have anything to do with anyone's ego.
While not as common as villainous pontificating in relation to ego, supporting characters pontificating in relation to lore (or in game descriptions also often use terms like fate and destiny in relatively spurious manners). Like the FFXIV trailer for ShadowBringers has “fulfill your destiny to become the Warrior of Darkness” as its tagline, essentially a melodramatic way of expressing duty/objective/goal/purpose/intention for narratives.
Or to use another story that involves a big good character getting killed, in Digimon Tamers when Leomon gets killed his last words are mediations on whether his death was his destiny/fate, that wasn’t using the term in relation to time travel or determinism, but more about subjective pondering of purpose/reason.
Mako, that stuff you posted is definitely some interesting meta-textual context, and is definitely worth taking into consideration. But I still do agree with Twilight that Sephiroth's pontificating isn't the whole of the puzzle. Nor is Red XIII's dialog, to be honest - his statement and the ensuing conversation can easily be read as the limits of character knowledge and perspective, but descriptions in databanks and menus and such tend to be much more objective and omniscient in their POV, so those taken together with the in-game enemy descriptions are what give (minor) cause for concer.
Of course, the possibility certainly exists that enemy descriptions are deliberately misleading, serving as a quick summary based on information that has been revealed rather than the totality of objective fact, but they're just as often one as they are the other and it's impossible to tell from the text alone which angle they're going for.
While not as common as villainous pontificating in relation to ego, supporting characters pontificating in relation to lore (or in game descriptions also often use terms like fate and destiny in relatively spurious manners). Like the FFXIV trailer for ShadowBringers has “fulfill your destiny to become the Warrior of Darkness” as its tagline, essentially a melodramatic way of expressing duty/objective/goal/purpose/intention for narratives.
Or to use another story that involves a big good character getting killed, in Digimon Tamers when Leomon gets killed his last words are mediations on whether his death was his destiny/fate, that wasn’t using the term in relation to time travel or determinism, but more about subjective pondering of purpose/reason.
We're also not talking about that sort of vague, "I wanna be the very best/Like no one ever was" shounen stuff either. =\
That sort of fluff dialogue is readily identifiable for what it is. Like Kratos pointed out, we're talking about (meta)physics-based explanations pertaining to the very structure of the world the story takes place in.
Red XIII brings up destiny and Tifa has to ask him if he's seriously talking about it like it's a real unseen force acting on the world.
"They are connected to all the threads of time and space that shape the planet's future." This choice of wording is at least trying to give the impression of being based in legitimate physics governing the setting.
Well, then it seems I can't really assuage said concerns anymore than Mako has; I think he already stated it best that the wording choice is likely just flourishes in reference to the "Planet's Will" (and subsequent hijacking by Sephiroth) type of stuff that's appeared before in the OG and Compilation.
Mako, that stuff you posted is definitely some interesting meta-textual context, and is definitely worth taking into consideration. But I still do agree with Twilight that Sephiroth's pontificating isn't the whole of the puzzle. Nor is Red XIII's dialog, to be honest - his statement and the ensuing conversation can easily be read as the limits of character knowledge and perspective, but descriptions in databanks and menus and such tend to be much more objective and omniscient in their POV, so those taken together with the in-game enemy descriptions are what give (minor) cause for concer.
Those Sense/Scan descriptions do not offer meta-contextual information beyond the understanding of the characters in-game. Meaning, it's only going to explain or reference what would be knowledgeable for the characters at the time. For instance look at Jenova's information.
Jenova FIRST
An ultrasecret Shinra experimental specimen. Information is scarce, but it is believed to cause hallucinations.
There is no objective or omniscient point of view here, let alone knowledge beyond the scope of Cloud and the others. This is because the information being supplied to them is coming from their own experiences, materia, and presumably Chadley's own database of info that would have limits imposed on it by the narrative. In short, spoilers. So no, you're reading way too much into the parroting of the Sense/Scan information on Whispers, which merely utilizes Red XIII's own words and presumably his Cosmo Canyon Tribe's beliefs in Planet Theory.
Here's another example. Let's look at the Hell House!
Hell House
Don Corneo's secret weapon, a monster in the form of a house. No one knows how it was built.
Right there, that description can't possibly be true. Someone would presumably know how it was built. Namely, Don Corneo.
The information supplied is from the perspective of Cloud and the others. It's not outside bounds of the story solely for the player's benefit. It can't reflect what's unknown to the characters.
Furthermore, Sephiroth has zero information. He literally cannot be scanned at all. Between that and the ambiguous and mysterious whispers, there are limits to the understanding of those bestiary entries. So reading too much into the data supplied by Scan will lead to misunderstanding its contextual placement in the story.
The information supplied is from the perspective of Cloud and the others. It's not outside bounds of the story solely for the player's benefit. It can't reflect what's unknown to the characters.
Rufus's shotgun is custom-made; that Darkstar is "a one-off breed specially enhanced by R&D"; that Reeve genuinely cares about the people of the slums and wants to see their lives improved; and that "cellular transplants from various large creatures" made some formerly human soldiers into the inhuman combatants (i.e. Deepground) they encounter under Midgar?
Like FFXV's data entries, FFVIIR's will dip into omniscient knowledge when the developers feel it suits the player's experience and/or understanding of the world and/or story.
Unless Cloud and co. will also know Rufus's shotgun is custom-made; that Darkstar is "a one-off breed specially enhanced by R&D"; that Reeve genuinely cares about the people of the slums and wants to see their lives improved; and that "cellular transplants from various large creatures" made some formerly human soldiers into the inhuman combatants (i.e. Deepground) they encounter under Midgar?
Chadley is a rogue Shinra operative from the Science Department with access to data files from Shinra's own network and company resources. He's also an assistant to Professor Hojo. Hence why he's able to supply Cloud with deep information on Shinra personnel, shinra weaponry, and provide tools that let Cloud and his gang create materia, access info on Shinra enemies and upgrade their weapons. But of course even his resources and info have limits.
And for instance, even the info on Deepground's escapees is cursory as detailed information on the experiments or laboratories of the program are left unmentioned. Only so much info is capable to be extracted.
Like FFXV's data entries, FFVIIR's will dip into omniscient knowledge when the developers feel it suits the player's experience and/or understanding of the world and/or story.
Actually, it really does not. The info from all entries known thus far operate just within the bounds of what's known and fathomable to characters via experience and Chadley. He offers in-depth analysis where possible, but the info is nowhere near as extensive or meta like XV's bestiary.
The info from all entries known thus far operate just within the bounds of what's known and fathomable to characters via experience and Chadley. He offers in-depth analysis where possible, but the info is nowhere near as extensive or meta like XV's bestiary.
Or FFXIV's lore books. Which have way more extensive world-building then... just about any other world-building resource in the entire FF series. And even FFXIV's lore books are written from the perspective of in-universe scholars who don't know everything about how the FFXIV world actually works! To the point that new plot developments say different things then in the lore books and it's considered to be okay because most people in the FFXIV world have no way of knowing that kind of stuff.
Shin-Ra is... very dismissive of anything to do with... the Planet's sentience, spirituality, etc. I wouldn't trust anything they've written up on anything connected to the Planet on a fundamental level. If simply because they've gotten just about everything else that has to do with the Planet or Jenova wrong. And the Whispers have a lot do to with both those things!
From a meta view, the story team probably also doesn't want anything spoiled via the UI and interface either. So I could see them repeating info told to the player in dialogue in the Sense/Scan profiles, if just to make sure they don't give the player too much information too quickly.
I told you, it's simply parroting the analysis given by Red XIII who's presumably working from his own limited understanding and experience of Planet/Spirit Energy Theory coming from Cosmo Canyon. Chadley more than likely has little if any outside information on what these things are.
The fact is, the Scan information is a literal "work in progress," not a comprehensive or infallible resource like the Sage Knowledge of the Clan Primer in XII or the Data Log of XIII. Chadley is more than likely working off the same info as everyone else in defining these hitherto unencountered creatures of myth.
Also, given we don't know how Cosmo Canyon's or Bugenhagen's Spirit Energy theory will be presented in the Remake, it all may use entirely different language than we've heard in the OG while still communicating the same idea. Hence why I think Red XIII's language on the matter trips people out. It's a more spiritual and metaphysical flourish for the same overarching concept.
