SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I missed so much...
I would have thought that by now someone would have written all that NPC dialogue down.
Remember when Cherry took the time to transcribe the entire script of Advent Children? That was a labour of love.
I still regularly use Yinza's transcription of the entire text of the OG.
I would have thought that by now someone would have written all that NPC dialogue down.
Remember when Cherry took the time to transcribe the entire script of Advent Children? That was a labour of love.
I still regularly use Yinza's transcription of the entire text of the OG.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
Looneymoon's post in the Chapter 12 thread really summed up my sense of hopelessness for this project, coupled with my conversations with another friend who loved the game but is scared that the Whisper subplot will alter Aeris's death. I told her basically that it was too late. The moment is already about the Whispers. If she lives, it's because we defeated Destiny. If she dies, it means the Whispers won, even after being defeated. Her death scene cannot be divorced from them. It's too late.
In fact, the whole story is now all about the Whispers. Even if we never see them again, and they are never brought up again, THEY WIN whenever something from the OG happens the way it happened in the OG. Fate and Pre-destiny have sapped the senselessness from the violence in the story. They've put every event in every additional game into one of two categories: pro-Whisper or anti-Whisper. Sephiroth is defeated? Guess he couldn't defy Destiny. Tifa escapes the gas chamber? Destiny. Someone betrays us?* Destiny. Something surprising happens? We defeated Destiny.
I don't care if, when Cloud sees the materia falling in the water, he remembers the vision that the Whispers showed him and the drama of the scene becomes all about how he "failed to stop Destiny" (although that's the kind of cheezy schlock I expect from this writing team). I don't care if the characters forget about the Whispers entirely. The writers can't wash their hands of the Whispers, having exhausted their usefulness in the first game. It's already too late. The Remake's story is now about them.
It is really too bad, because I know continuing with the Remake will irreparably damage my interest in the narrative, even in the context of the OG, a novelization, comic, or other adaptation. But such is my interest in the narrative that I'm not sure I'm going to be able to help myself. My only recourse at this point is to grieve the bad fanfic and hold it at arm's length.
*don't know what the OG spoiler policy is in this thread, but Aeris's death is famous enough that I don't think it counts.
In fact, the whole story is now all about the Whispers. Even if we never see them again, and they are never brought up again, THEY WIN whenever something from the OG happens the way it happened in the OG. Fate and Pre-destiny have sapped the senselessness from the violence in the story. They've put every event in every additional game into one of two categories: pro-Whisper or anti-Whisper. Sephiroth is defeated? Guess he couldn't defy Destiny. Tifa escapes the gas chamber? Destiny. Someone betrays us?* Destiny. Something surprising happens? We defeated Destiny.
I don't care if, when Cloud sees the materia falling in the water, he remembers the vision that the Whispers showed him and the drama of the scene becomes all about how he "failed to stop Destiny" (although that's the kind of cheezy schlock I expect from this writing team). I don't care if the characters forget about the Whispers entirely. The writers can't wash their hands of the Whispers, having exhausted their usefulness in the first game. It's already too late. The Remake's story is now about them.
It is really too bad, because I know continuing with the Remake will irreparably damage my interest in the narrative, even in the context of the OG, a novelization, comic, or other adaptation. But such is my interest in the narrative that I'm not sure I'm going to be able to help myself. My only recourse at this point is to grieve the bad fanfic and hold it at arm's length.
*don't know what the OG spoiler policy is in this thread, but Aeris's death is famous enough that I don't think it counts.
Shademp
420
Since people were already able to extract text from the demo, it seems reasonable that somebody out there has the know-how to extract the text from the finalized game. If not now, then at least fairly soon this should be accomplished. (EDIT: Sent a question to Whitehouse about this to see if he knows the data mining status for the retail release of FFVIIR. Awaiting reply.) Given the sheer size of the script it would take months to manually transcribe the text from FFVIIR, so I think it's better to wait until it can all be conveniently extracted from the data files.
I remember years ago when I transcribed almost all of the text from the first disc of the original FFVII. In hindsight I feel like a fool. It was around that time text-viewing programs for FFVII, like 7mimic, were released. But I was young and had no concept of data mining back then.
If I recall, @The Twilight Mexican transcribed most of the text from Final Fantasy XV. This ranks among the top most extreme manual transcription labors that I have ever seen. I stand in awe of it.
I remember years ago when I transcribed almost all of the text from the first disc of the original FFVII. In hindsight I feel like a fool. It was around that time text-viewing programs for FFVII, like 7mimic, were released. But I was young and had no concept of data mining back then.
If I recall, @The Twilight Mexican transcribed most of the text from Final Fantasy XV. This ranks among the top most extreme manual transcription labors that I have ever seen. I stand in awe of it.
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Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
Based on Aerith's line about missing "steel sky," and other bits that kept coming up in the overarching narrative of the game, it seems like they are going existentialist. The price the party will pay for their freedom is security and intrinsic meaning. It's a really common theme in anime, honestly - overthrowing destiny and killing God. However, as you say, if the Whispers are responsible for the events of the original game, they take the absurdity out of the original game. They are trying to burn the candle on both ends here, in an attempt to change the story while maintaining both canons. The only way this could work is if they top the original. I'm very uneasy about it.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I don't think you should be retroactively applying the whispers back on to the original. They exist as a meta-narrative device to represent the creators' freedom to deviate from the original text, not something that always existed that the characters are only this time around getting to defy. At least that's my opinion. They exist in the remake-verse, they didn't in the original. Don't overthink it.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I'm with Ody on this one.
I was never a big fan of Time travel fix-it fanfic, not even "The Fifth Act" which was probably the closest thing fandom has ever come to Booker Prize winning best seller levels of insane popularity.
But the more I think about this whole clusterfuck, I realise that the further SE divorce the remake from the OG, the happier I am.
Do I enjoy seeing Rude, Reno, Rufus, Tseng et al in HD? Of course I do.
I was never a big fan of Time travel fix-it fanfic, not even "The Fifth Act" which was probably the closest thing fandom has ever come to Booker Prize winning best seller levels of insane popularity.
But the more I think about this whole clusterfuck, I realise that the further SE divorce the remake from the OG, the happier I am.
Do I enjoy seeing Rude, Reno, Rufus, Tseng et al in HD? Of course I do.
Claymore
3x3 Eyes
Beat me to it. I was just typing this out...
I feel like a lot of people are looking at it from the wrong perspective. The events in the original game happened as is. It is only now that the Whispers are intervening to keep the original course of fate intact against Sephiroth's manipulations. The original is, and always will be, still there. It doesn't taint the original in the way that is being presented here.
I feel like a lot of people are looking at it from the wrong perspective. The events in the original game happened as is. It is only now that the Whispers are intervening to keep the original course of fate intact against Sephiroth's manipulations. The original is, and always will be, still there. It doesn't taint the original in the way that is being presented here.
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
The only way I can see that being logically consistent is if this is indeed a sequel (I haven't been keeping up with the debate for the past several days, but as of current, I believe that this is the most likely scenario). The only reason why the Planet would conjure these new beings into existence (while maintaining a firm non-existence in the OG) is if we go Chrono with it. I am fully aware that they were created to justify creator divergence and initiate a metadialog with the fans, but you can't throw out logic and the existing narrative to further that. That's bad writing.
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Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I've seen many people afraid that the whispers dilute the themes of the original, and I don't even really disagree, but my mind always goes back to "but this isn't the original though." I don't think square is setting out to explore the same messages as before, but something new. I remember reading somebody say something like "its 2020, you can't make FF7 anymore, you can only make a game about trying to remake FF7" and I think that hits the nail on the head. Its far too early to say, but if I had to peg what the big theme of the remake is going to be, I think it will seriously be "second chances." the title "Remake" is a lot more meaningful than just a descriptor for the product. I know that's not what everyone signed up for, but I'm interested in seeing what they do. They've made a point of separating this game from the one they made 23 years ago.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
Personally, it doesnt feel like the meta-narrative compensates for all the problems generated (and the potential problems they might still create).
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
It's a very dangerous game they are playing. 
Edit: I didn't really want a 1-1 recreation, but at the same time, I'm not sure if they can live up to their vision to top the original and offer something completely new to the table to mirror the OG's impact. I love metaphysical fuckery and time travel stories. They actually tend to be my favorites. They're just very hard to get right.
Edit: I didn't really want a 1-1 recreation, but at the same time, I'm not sure if they can live up to their vision to top the original and offer something completely new to the table to mirror the OG's impact. I love metaphysical fuckery and time travel stories. They actually tend to be my favorites. They're just very hard to get right.
Shademp
420
There is a certain tragic comedy to how the ending, and the whispers, simultaneously request us to overthink and try to make sense of things while obviously the quality of the writing demands that we DON'T overthink. The developers have intentionally turned a huge part of the FFVII fandom into this meme image:
The lead developers are probably so proud of themselves right now for sparking debate, speculation and controversy inbetween this game and the next one in the series. They are playing fans like a damn fiddle and they feel like it's worth it.
But it's all for nothing. If "defeating destiny" leads to a game series that detracts so wildly from the original game that it can barely be considered an adaptation anymore, then it can no longer be considered a Remake series and fans won't be getting what they want. If the story beats are all the same with only minor differences, then that declares the ending of FFVIIR Part 1 a red herring that is only here to distract us inbetween game releases. It would declare the whispers a pointless distraction.
90% of FFVIIR is an awesome game and narrative. So much about the level of quality in the gameplay and writing felt distinctly not-Square-Enix-like that I started to wonder if perhaps Square Enix had changed their ways. But the ending proved that they can't suppress their disposition towards dream-logic nonsense.
Square, you were THIS close. This goddamn close. And you fucked it up.
The lead developers are probably so proud of themselves right now for sparking debate, speculation and controversy inbetween this game and the next one in the series. They are playing fans like a damn fiddle and they feel like it's worth it.
But it's all for nothing. If "defeating destiny" leads to a game series that detracts so wildly from the original game that it can barely be considered an adaptation anymore, then it can no longer be considered a Remake series and fans won't be getting what they want. If the story beats are all the same with only minor differences, then that declares the ending of FFVIIR Part 1 a red herring that is only here to distract us inbetween game releases. It would declare the whispers a pointless distraction.
90% of FFVIIR is an awesome game and narrative. So much about the level of quality in the gameplay and writing felt distinctly not-Square-Enix-like that I started to wonder if perhaps Square Enix had changed their ways. But the ending proved that they can't suppress their disposition towards dream-logic nonsense.
Square, you were THIS close. This goddamn close. And you fucked it up.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
I'm *also* not interested in a meta-narrative about a self-aware video game. The fourth wall is a trust between storyteller and audience, and breaking that trust is irreversible - that's why it is used primarily in comedy and short art films, not in long-form fiction.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Another quote to add to my growing list of stuff I have cut and pasted to preserve for posterity.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
It's also extremely ambiguous the nature or extent of the "fate" these Whispers apparently wish to protect.
Is it the entire events of the OG? Is it the events leading to the 7 seconds before world's end? Is it what the planet believes is inevitable? Or what the planet wishes to see happen?
We know so very little and yet so much is being stated as fact and emphasized on an unknown.
To the detriment of literally everything that composes the entirety of the story. Characters, game design, setting, etc. It's a fixation over control and the presence of guard rails to steer the direction of the story.
All we have, that is apparent to us right now, is the Remake daring to include an existential awareness into the choices and desires of the characters, within their own story. The writers are bluntly daring to move beyond the safety of tried-true canon to, at the very least, give the appearance of future ambiguity.
A freedom of possibility that goes beyond a retelling that lets this story exist beyond 1997. The Remake is literally a product of its time, reflecting the essence of existential angst and hopeful possibility. It's a critique and challenge towards its own collective meaning in an age that audiences love such daring irreverence towards the sacred past. The theme of choice and intrinsic subjective meaning towards one own actions, even in the face of forces outside of one's power, is the recurring theme exclusive to this story. Embracing the moment in the face of a frightening and unknown future. And it dovetails into suddenly placing a black-ops bag over the audience's face to obscure the next destination and theme of the story to create a literal unforseen future.
That ambiguity elicits dread or desire to see it through. However no one knows the outcome and it being a product of this time means the OG remains the classic of its own time.
They're not meant to cannibalize each other. They exist together. And I personally refuse to let uncertainty of potential future fuckery ruin my enjoyment of the past or future of FFVII. Just like existence, no one knows what exactly the future may hold, but living in fear of it only guarantees a miserable present.
So you might as well freely enjoy what's presently before you.
Is it the entire events of the OG? Is it the events leading to the 7 seconds before world's end? Is it what the planet believes is inevitable? Or what the planet wishes to see happen?
We know so very little and yet so much is being stated as fact and emphasized on an unknown.
To the detriment of literally everything that composes the entirety of the story. Characters, game design, setting, etc. It's a fixation over control and the presence of guard rails to steer the direction of the story.
All we have, that is apparent to us right now, is the Remake daring to include an existential awareness into the choices and desires of the characters, within their own story. The writers are bluntly daring to move beyond the safety of tried-true canon to, at the very least, give the appearance of future ambiguity.
A freedom of possibility that goes beyond a retelling that lets this story exist beyond 1997. The Remake is literally a product of its time, reflecting the essence of existential angst and hopeful possibility. It's a critique and challenge towards its own collective meaning in an age that audiences love such daring irreverence towards the sacred past. The theme of choice and intrinsic subjective meaning towards one own actions, even in the face of forces outside of one's power, is the recurring theme exclusive to this story. Embracing the moment in the face of a frightening and unknown future. And it dovetails into suddenly placing a black-ops bag over the audience's face to obscure the next destination and theme of the story to create a literal unforseen future.
That ambiguity elicits dread or desire to see it through. However no one knows the outcome and it being a product of this time means the OG remains the classic of its own time.
They're not meant to cannibalize each other. They exist together. And I personally refuse to let uncertainty of potential future fuckery ruin my enjoyment of the past or future of FFVII. Just like existence, no one knows what exactly the future may hold, but living in fear of it only guarantees a miserable present.
So you might as well freely enjoy what's presently before you.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
Well yes, but the ending will affect the sequels in a big way, the storyline might go bonkers and you might get 50% of greatness next.
The ending opens up dozens of possibilities, really. Much easier to write fanfics when you toy with time-altering elements and light vanilla flakes coming from the sky.
That's why I'm worried, because execution was really amateur with the way they simply put up those things.
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
A lot of the problem lies in the future implications. We already had a thick plot in the original game, and it will be very difficult to maintain the integrity that plot with a new one overlaying it.
Edit: One way they may be able to do it is by moving Cloud's arc up into an earlier game than the temporal fuckery arc.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It's a mistake to expect Square Enix to be logically consistent. They don't care about the logic. They never have. I've struggled with this for years, but since coming around to their point of view, I feel liberated.
I'd love to know how Japanese fans have received the Remake.
I'd love to know how Japanese fans have received the Remake.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Maybe I've spent to much time engrossed in media that goes in deep with meta bullshit. My favorite book of all time is someone writing over a little girl's pony adventure story with their own text, and it slowly evolving from adding a few crude words and dumb character names into a full on indepth character study of the person doing it and how the in-story characters react to it. I live for this shit.
I think people are letting their fears detract from the overall quality this game has. Part 2 is still being written by Nojima, who has proved more than capable of making exciting and heartfelt scenes, and really great comedy. That's what 90% of this game was, and we all loved it until we reached the end of that highway. I can't wait to see Yuffie's antics, can't wait to see the emotion in Cloud as he watches Sephiroth destroy his home, can't wait to see how ridiculous the CPR mini-game will look or how radical leaping up the electric tower on Mr. Dolphin will be. All of those moments will be delivered on and then some, this first part has given me no reason to think otherwise.
Yes I'm sure more weird shit is gonna happen that will piss everyone off, it wouldn't be a square enix FF7 production otherwise. But the majority of this thing will be amazing again. I have no reason to doubt that. Plot ghosts be damned.
I think people are letting their fears detract from the overall quality this game has. Part 2 is still being written by Nojima, who has proved more than capable of making exciting and heartfelt scenes, and really great comedy. That's what 90% of this game was, and we all loved it until we reached the end of that highway. I can't wait to see Yuffie's antics, can't wait to see the emotion in Cloud as he watches Sephiroth destroy his home, can't wait to see how ridiculous the CPR mini-game will look or how radical leaping up the electric tower on Mr. Dolphin will be. All of those moments will be delivered on and then some, this first part has given me no reason to think otherwise.
Yes I'm sure more weird shit is gonna happen that will piss everyone off, it wouldn't be a square enix FF7 production otherwise. But the majority of this thing will be amazing again. I have no reason to doubt that. Plot ghosts be damned.
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
The fact that I enjoy Advent Children is a testament to my ability to accept and embrace a mess as canon, so if they mess up whatever meta thing they're trying to execute, I am hoping I could find the same level of acceptance. I would say that good character development is more important than a plot hole free story to me, if I have to choose. FFVIIR1 delivered on character development, while still managing to save backstories for later.
I also assume the pacing will be better than FFVIIR1, which was one of the few complaints I had about it beyond the ending and the plate.
I also assume the pacing will be better than FFVIIR1, which was one of the few complaints I had about it beyond the ending and the plate.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
let's say now I know what they're capable of, given the ending it's more likely the deviations will be bigger next time.
I could be wrong, but I really disliked the ending, that's why I'm more worried than excited for the quality of the story going forward.