SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That makes sense.

I was under the impression that the Whisper's job was to ensure that events unfolded exactly as they had done before, and since Cloud was falling exactly as he had done before, their presence was unnecessary.

However, if the Whispers are, instead, shepherding a sequence of events that has been planned by the Planet but has not occured before (i.e., there's no time loop or time travel) then it's odd that they aren't present at every point where it's just conceivable that Cloud (or some other crucial person) might make a different (that is, wrong) choice.

For instance, why aren't they around to ensure that Cloud decides to rescue Tifa from Corneo's? Is it because Aerith is there to do that?

Why are they never present at all the many other times when Cloud faces possible death? Why don't they save him when Hell House or Motorball or Rufus or a Tonberry wipes him out? I think this is what I mean when I say the Whispers are used in a manner that is inconsistent, both within the narrative and within the gameplay. Of course, I can suspend my disbelief like anyone else, and actually the Whispers don't even bother me that much any more. Probably they are as well executed as it is possible for them to be, given the exigencies of the medium.

It also begs the question of when and why the Planet first started generating these Whispers. Are Shinra and Sephiroth part of its plan? And if so, what is the purpose of this plan? (One assumes the purpose isn't self-harm). This is why I liked the suggestion I stumbled across on tumblr, namely that the Planet allowed Shinra and Sephiroth to exist because this was the way it planned to rid itself of Jenova one and for all.

A risky strategy, to be sure.

 

[Master Bates]

I tried to frog.

Suffice it to say it is not for me. I have no patience.

 

[Roger]

That makes sense.

I was under the impression that the Whisper's job was to ensure that events unfolded exactly as they had done before, and since Cloud was falling exactly as he had done before, their presence was unnecessary.

However, if the Whispers are, instead, shepherding a sequence of events that has been planned by the Planet but has not occured before (i.e., there's no time loop or time travel) then it's odd that they aren't present at every point where it's just conceivable that Cloud (or some other crucial person) might make a different (that is, wrong) choice.

For instance, why aren't they around to ensure that Cloud decides to rescue Tifa from Corneo's? Is it because Aerith is there to do that?

Why are they never present at all the many other times when Cloud faces possible death? Why don't they save him when Hell House or Motorball or Rufus or a Tonberry wipes him out? I think this is what I mean when I say the Whispers are used in a manner that is inconsistent, both within the narrative and within the gameplay. Of course, I can suspend my disbelief like anyone else, and actually the Whispers don't even bother me that much any more. Probably they are as well executed as it is possible for them to be, given the exigencies of the medium.

It also begs the question of when and why the Planet first started generating these Whispers. Are Shinra and Sephiroth part of its plan? And if so, what is the purpose of this plan? (One assumes the purpose isn't self-harm). This is why I liked the suggestion I stumbled across on tumblr, namely that the Planet allowed Shinra and Sephiroth to exist because this was the way it planned to rid itself of Jenova one and for all.

A risky strategy, to be sure.

Cloud didn't have the rope gun in OG, and may have been off target with the flower patch in the Remake before the Whispers intervention.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So why didn't they stop him being given the rope gun? If that's what was going to make the difference between life and death? Why would he have been off target if this is just a loop or replay of what's happened before?

 

[Roger]

So why didn't they stop him being given the rope gun? If that's what was going to make the difference between life and death? Why would he have been off target if this is just a loop or replay of what's happened before?

It's not just replay of what's happened before. There's absolutely no given reason for why Cloud and Barret's business relationship to be so different that Cloud isn't welcome on the 2nd bombing run, yet it is a mess that the Whispers need to clear up to realign with fate all the same. As for why they didn't stop him getting the rope gun, maneuvering an unconcious Cloud is easier then a concious one.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I am reflecting on Mako's loop theory.

These are the two theories of the Whispers' origin and purpose that I know of:

1. The Remake shows the Planet reviewing the events leading up to the activation of Holy, in order to decide whether or not humanity should survive. Sephiroth has intruded himself into this process, throwing the course of events off their tracks, and the Whispers have been created to keep the chain of events on its original rails.

If this is the case, then the Whispers are not needed at any event which is playing out as it did in the original. Are we really supposed to infer that Biggs giving Cloud a grappling hook is the flap of the butterfly wing that threatens to de-rail all of destiny? Why don't the Whispers stop him from doing that, then?

Is it the grappling gun that knocks Cloud unconscious? I don't think that's made clear (maybe in the Ultimania?) To say the Whispers needed the grappling gun so that Cloud could be knocked unconscious so that they could more easily maneuvre him into the position he would have been in if he hadn't had the grappling gun... Is a circular argument. In any case, while he's not shown falling in the OG, he's certainly unconscious when we rejoin him in the church. I don't think we can build an argument on when and how he falls unconscious, there just isn't enough hard evidence either way.

2. The Planet has pre-determined its own destiny, or history, or whatever you want to call it, and created the Whispers to ensure that the chain of events plays out as it has planned. Somehow, a Sephiroth from the future (?) has acquired the ability to thwart the Planet's plans.

If this is the case, then why did the Planet allow Shinra to rise to power and start siphoning off its mako? Why didn't the Whispers shove Lucretia off a cliff when she was pregnant with Sephiroth?

So far, the explanation I like best is that Shinra and Sephiroth are all part of the Planet's plan for getting rid of Jenova once and for all. It doesn't require convoluted explanations that strain the boundaries of consistency and belief.

 

[Shademp]

On my end, I'm assuming that the planet is more re-active than pro-active.

Spoiler

If the planet was pro-active, it would perform complex strategies and use defenses on its own. For example, why doesn't the planet/collective-lifestream use Holy on its own to protect against Meteor? Because for plot reasons it needs a Cetra to pray for its activation. The planet, despite being a giant brain of sorts, is profoundly stupid.

Same deal when Weapon are summoned after the Reunion events. The Weapons act recklessly and attack human settlements because those are deemed threats, yet (as far as we know) they don't do anything to lower Sephiroth's barrier at the Northern Crater and defeat Sephiroth who is a far bigger (or at least more immediate) threat. Neither do they fly up into space and attack Meteor, which I'm confident one or two of them could.

All the planet knows is that there is a specific series of events that leads to Meteor not crashing, and a number of other planet-level crises being averted, so the planet tries its best to replicate those series of events. Even if the planet was smart enough to consider anything other than using a known template, it might fear that the butterfly effect will escalate to the point that the planet always gets destroyed way early.

That's my take on it, at least. If one starts giving the planet more intelligence than it was shown to have in the OG, or if we assume that it can distribute resources perfectly, then nothing in FFVII works.

 

[Fangu]

Shinra Combat Simulator (in Shinra tower) question: Which chapter do you have to choose to be able to do Aerith's fight?

Or is there some battle simulator choice in the post game menu we missed?

 

[Shademp]

Chapter 17. A combat simulator will be available here if you've cleared the game once already. You can do the Aerith battles here.

 

[Odysseus]

The planet, despite being a giant brain of sorts, is profoundly stupid.

Well, Cid does call it a "kid."

 

[oty]

Spoiler: end spoilers

Wasnt there an interview where they explained that the Whispers (they didnt specifically said the Whispers, more like certain changes) are there to also "explain" certain things? And the example was precisely the fall to the Slums, that Cloud not dying to such a huge fall was weird.

 

[ForceStealer]

This stuff probably shouldn't all be in the Chapter 8 thread, gang

 

[ForceStealer]

^And just because I was a little unclear on it - you have to get through just the first fight in Hojo's lab while Barret and Red try to move the debris, then you'll run into Chadley and get access. It's much shorter than traveling through Ch. 16 to it.

 

[oty]

Oh shit. My bad. So many threads I keep forgetting which is which.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

All these threads are starting to melt into one another.

 

[Rydeen]

I would definitely put myself into the sequel camp, partly because it is more interesting to me and partly because it makes more sense both narratively and logically.

Assuming that's the case, my biggest curiosities are why all of these little things iterated or nearly iterated differently, presumably without the influence of Sephiroth. Either butterfly effect or they are taking a non deterministic stance on probability. I think it’s the latter because of how in spite of these Whispers, it still comes up repeatedly that the future is not set in stone. That the simple act of replaying the past, even unchanged, results in divergence. I like this idea, because it’s not as conventional than other approaches. After the Whispers are created, they only interfere with events that they sense have a strong causal weight.

It’s possible that the Planet is just clinging to the most familiar path without forethought - the events of the OG - and that the more divergent, the more uncomfortable it becomes. It’s still debatable how sentient the Planet actually is. I am leaning toward Sephiroth, tapping into a Lavos-like power latent in Jenova, being the orchestrator of the time travel, resulting in a reflexive response by the planet to generate the arbiters. If Sephiroth was not responsible for the time travel, then it is reasonable to assume that the Whispers have always existed in this continuity, because it could have just rewinded the first calamity and tried to whisk it away. I honestly wouldn’t want them to go in this direction because it’s too cliche and messier. I like the conditionality.

I also wonder how far it or Sephiroth went back, considering how the Zack event was altered. Or perhaps the act of any time travel at all caused them to permeate the entirety of the new timeline (until the party killed them presumably).

Although its level of sentience is hotly debatable (I’m actually not sure if I want them to disambiguate this - I kinda like the mystery, it’s like real life) I do not believe the Planet is intended to be omnipotent. Deities in Japanese storytelling are generally not. Omnipotence is a Judeo-Christian thing. And even there it doesn’t really pan out because of free will.

Crazy to think that the team is not just fighting against Shinra and Sephiroth, but apparently even the Planet itself. And also the fact that the creators seem to have been toying with the timeloop idea since AC, per Rufus’ speech.

 

[Odysseus]

It just occurred to me that I'm half way through my hard mode playthrough and I still don't have the steal materia. Must have missed it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I am reflecting on Mako's loop theory.

These are the two theories of the Whispers' origin and purpose that I know of:

1. The Remake shows the Planet reviewing the events leading up to the activation of Holy, in order to decide whether or not humanity should survive. Sephiroth has intruded himself into this process, throwing the course of events off their tracks, and the Whispers have been created to keep the chain of events on its original rails.

If this is the case, then the Whispers are not needed at any event which is playing out as it did in the original. Are we really supposed to infer that Biggs giving Cloud a grappling hook is the flap of the butterfly wing that threatens to de-rail all of destiny? Why don't the Whispers stop him from doing that, then?

Well, since you mentioned me and my theory, allow me to explain.

Theoretically yes, the Whispers wouldn't be needed for any event that was on track to go how it did in the OG. However, time and in essence, free will, are highly variable.

To use another time travel story example, it's like The Butterfly Effect. Every choice, feeling, decision, and expression is highly connected and influenced by the context that surrounds it. Meaning that even if you recreate the exact same structural circumstance an experience happened under, just by influencing or observing it, you've changed it on a level.

Meaning you can have anomalies.

Anomalies like Barret choosing not to hire Cloud for the second gig. Barret being present with President Shinra in his office when he was to be killed by Sephiroth, leading to Barret getting killed as well. Cloud nearly, accidentally getting his friends crushed by a falling helicopter during the highway chase.

These type of anomalies can happen in time loops through just random chance and the subtle, minute influences that change due to the fact it's different.

Is it the grappling gun that knocks Cloud unconscious? I don't think that's made clear (maybe in the Ultimania?) To say the Whispers needed the grappling gun so that Cloud could be knocked unconscious so that they could more easily maneuvre him into the position he would have been in if he hadn't had the grappling gun... Is a circular argument. In any case, while he's not shown falling in the OG, he's certainly unconscious when we rejoin him in the church. I don't think we can build an argument on when and how he falls unconscious, there just isn't enough hard evidence either way.

We don't know. It could be any number of reasons and circumstances. The point however is that just because a circumstance or experience is structurally copied, doesn't mean the copy is perfect.

It's like a photocopy from a copy machine. It might be 99% a copy but there are subtle differences that exist. And if you keep photocopying the copy.. Eventually there's gonna be more and more noise and loss of fidelity.

If this is the case, then why did the Planet allow Shinra to rise to power and start siphoning off its mako? Why didn't the Whispers shove Lucretia off a cliff when she was pregnant with Sephiroth?

This implies an omniscient, and omnipotent planet which we know for sure is not the case. So I definitely don't see that being the case.

 

[Suzaku]

It's not just replay of what's happened before. There's absolutely no given reason for why Cloud and Barret's business relationship to be so different that Cloud isn't welcome on the 2nd bombing run, yet it is a mess that the Whispers need to clear up to realign with fate all the same. As for why they didn't stop him getting the rope gun, maneuvering an unconcious Cloud is easier then a concious one.

Doesn't the Ultimania say that the Whispers observe until they sense a change to history becomes imminent, and then intervene?


If we're talking multiple timeline theories, or time loops, or whatever, usually the explanation is just that the laws of probability dictate that there will be minor, almost imperceptible changes. Most of the changes do not result in history changing (IE the world still ends / the time loop is preserved), but it's possible that in some iterations, many small changes will accumulate into a meaningful change that would break the loop or alter the fate of the world.

That is presumably what the Whispers sense and attempt to correct. Just as a matter of practicality, it's likely that they only actually intervene when they sense that their future is being unwritten, in other words when a choice is actually affecting the death of the Planet. Red XIII says as much, that fate is what the Planet deems the correct path from its own birth to death, more or less.

In other words, what matters to the Whispers is the destination, not the journey.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So far, the explanation I like best is that Shinra and Sephiroth are all part of the Planet's plan for getting rid of Jenova once and for all. It doesn't require convoluted explanations that strain the boundaries of consistency and belief.

It doesn't, but it is literally (seriously, literally; foresight, fate, and all) the same divine plan just carried out in FFXV for dealing with that planet's Jenova-like invader -- and I think it would assign more sentience to the planet that it should really have. In that respect, consistency takes a hit.

 

[Rydeen]

I thought I liked that explanation initially, but it also presents the issue of how - if the planet is capable of higher order planning, a better solution would have been for it to travel all the way back to the calamity itself, using the Whispers to knock it out of orbit.

Sephiroth being the ultimate mastermind of the time travel plot and a less sentient Planet just trying to stick to the script that originally “defeated” him seems to introduce the least issues.

If this assessment is true, the last questions that really remain are: what conditions allowed him to do it, what does he plan to do differently to ensure victory, and how can he be defeated at all (maybe he really will never just be a memory and we are doomed to always repeat all this)?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I thought I liked that explanation initially, but it also presents the issue of how - if the planet is capable of higher order planning, a better solution would have been for it to travel all the way back to the calamity itself, using the Whispers to knock it out of orbit.

The planet is doing this because of Holy.

My theory is based on what Bugenhagen described Holy as being, and the numerous allusions to Meteorfall that exist in Destiny's Crossroads, particularly when you enter the singularity and after being the Harbinger, Sephiroth shows the ultimate fate of the planet. "Seven seconds til' the end." Which is apparently, seven seconds before Meteorfall.

Bugenhagen
Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor.
If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear.
Ho Ho Hooo.
Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear.
Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud
Even us!?

Bugenhagen
It is up to the planet to decide.
What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet.
All that is bad will disappear. That is all.
Ho Ho Hooo.

Essentially, Holy is... Holy Judgment.

Which is ironically, the ultimate ability of the ultimate Holy Primal/Eidolon, Alexander. Which has been known to judge rather harshly and indiscriminately. Essentially Holy is the means that decides what gets to live, and what gets to be erased.

Sephiroth being the ultimate mastermind of the time travel plot and a less sentient Planet just trying to stick to the script that originally “defeated” him seems to introduce the least issues.

Well as you said, the question is, how would Sephiroth somehow create a way to time travel? That's a big one.

Meanwhile, it's been shown, at least thematically/lore-wise, that the spirit energy of a planet, it's total collective memories from creation to end, allow it to produce it's own pocket-space that can even reach all the way back to the beginning of time... Memoria and the Crystal World of FFIX.

If the power of a planet's crystal, or lifestream, allows it's entire memories/energy to fold space-time to run it's own isolated timeline, that exists to see the actual events that unfolded to invoke to Holy to judge what gets to exist and not exist... That would give us the answer as to why Arbiters (beings who oversee matters of conflict to judge) are needed to properly manage this experience, and why perhaps the removal of these forces resulted on one hand, a version of Stamp to exist as one design where their influence existed last, and another version of Stamp to exist where they ultimately disappeared from first.

 

[Rydeen]

So you’re saying that the Planet was ultimately responsible for the timeloop and tried to redo Holy because it knew it failed in getting rid of Sephiroth completely, and Sephiroth saw that and took advantage of it for his own ends?

 

[Makoeyes987]

So you’re saying that the Planet was ultimately responsible for the timeloop and tried to redo Holy because it knew it failed in getting rid of Sephiroth completely, and Sephiroth saw that and took advantage of it for his own ends?

No, it's not redoing Holy. Holy is the means/mechanism to judge all life through re-enacting the circumstance that summoned Holy. The planet does this via the Arbiters of Fate.

As for Sephiroth's ability to get around this, it's essentially the same reason why he was able to hide himself from the planet, absorb it's lifestream, and now absorb the Aribters of Fate. Because of his abilities from Jenova, he's like a planetary virus who goes against the flow of life.

 

[Rydeen]

No, it's not redoing Holy. Holy is the means/mechanism to judge all life through re-enacting the circumstance that summoned Holy. The planet does this via the Arbiters of Fate.

As for Sephiroth's ability to get around this, it's essentially the same reason why he was able to hide himself from the planet, absorb it's lifestream, and now absorb the Aribters of Fate. Because of his abilities from Jenova, he's like a planetary virus who goes against the flow of life.

Ahh. So, basically, in your paradigm, Holy was not an isolated protective event that ended after it interfered with meteor - the time loop is a mechanism of Holy itself.

I can't think of any issues with this theory at the moment. I quite like it.

I wonder if the rewind happened after AC or after DoC. The arbiters had to have performed this iteration of the plot in real time (as opposed to completely transcending time) since random events had changed - otherwise random events wouldn't have panned out differently - the arbiters would have just tweaked all the things that hurt the planet from frozen states. Omnipotence basically, and we wouldn't want that.