SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
I found the greatest copypasta due to the Remake from the Final Fantasy subreddit:
Okay normally I would laugh but that is taking it a bit too far....like calling nomura and square retards was not enough apparently and for record I am far from mad at remake it is the opposite I love it! I just had to vent over Jessie....damn you square I love you but I hate you..lol
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I found the greatest copypasta due to the Remake from the Final Fantasy subreddit:


Seph wing.gif

Yeah I saw and wedge was alive and well so was Biggs from the ending. Wedge was with mayor domino and contacted gang in shinra hq.

I understand your confusion and distrust of my info but it is true I did see but I am honestly not gonna bother with it anymore I just wanted to get it off my chest. Hey I mean no disrespect at all

Then you missed you the part where the Whispers consumed him. He's definitely not as "alive" or "present" as Biggs is. He's the only definitive survivor.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
So Aerith definitely knows what happens in OG FFVII, her saying to Cloud that falling in love for her is not real implies his feelings are just a reflection of Zack's feelings.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
So Aerith definitely knows what happens in OG FFVII, her saying to Cloud that falling in love for her is not real implies his feelings are just a reflection of Zack's feelings.

I am definitely starting to wonder how much she knows.

- Aerith introduces Cloud to Reno as her bodyguard, and asks Cloud "You don't mind, do you? Bodyguard work's not too different from merc stuff, right?" When he expresses surprise at her knowing he's a mercenary, she obviously makes up her response on the spot: "Uh... I guessed! From the sword!" In the original game, he had already told her he does a little bit of everything by this point (when he introduced himself)

- When Cloud asks Aerith whether she's ever heard of Sephiroth and tells her he's got a feeling Seph is still alive, she breaks eye contact, says "Oh...right" in a suddenly serious (perhaps somber?) tone, and walks away saying "C'mon. Let's go" -- much to Cloud's confusion

- When Red XIII first appears to the others, Aerith's expression is calm while the others assume battle stances. When he then runs away, Aerith smiles, says "We need to go!" and runs after him.

When they catch up to him, she says "This child's a friend" and makes the move to reassure him that he is safe rather than it being he who offers the others that reassurance, opposite to the case in the original game. Aerith, in fact, had been frightened by Nanaki at first in the original game. Here, she doesn't once show any concern around him.

Perhaps most notably, Aerith also isn't surprised like the others that Red XIII can talk.

- In her old room in the Shin-Ra building, Aerith says "The Shinra Electric Power Company isn't the real enemy. It started with them, sure...but I promise you...there's a much bigger threat. I just want to do everything in my power to help. All of you... And the planet."

Tifa replies "Aerith. What are you not telling us?"

Aerith: "I'm lost in a maze, and...every step is taking me further from the path... Every time the Whispers touch me...I lose something. A part of myself."

For someone who was supposedly just selling flowers a couple of days ago and "didn't know" Sephiroth was alive because the news five years ago said he was dead, she suddenly knows a lot about what's going on with the world.

- Aerith seems to already know about Jenova (by name even) when the party approaches its containment cylinder. She will also later refer to it as "The source. Of everything" as the Jenova Dreamweaver battle begins.

- Before the party boards the elevator going to President Shinra's office, Aerith is the one to say "Once we get in that elevator, there's no turning back."

- Before entering the Whisper singularity, Aerith briefly stops the party from continuing to deliver a passionate and ominous series of lines:

"This is the point of no return. Destiny's crossroads. … Freedom. Boundless, terrifying freedom. Like a great, never-ending sky. … Sephiroth has to be stopped. He has to be. And that's why... I'm asking you to help me. I know that, together, we can do this. But if we do... We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed...if we win...we'll be changing ourselves..."
----

Could some of this just be "Because she's a Cetra"? Sure. But given there's things she seems aware of here that she wasn't aware of in the original despite being a Cetra there too ... Well, it's very interesting.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
There's a ton of fucking mystery here that's just. It's coldly and calculatedly ambiguous.

It's really incredible how much they wanted to leave these hidden threads of ambiguity and uncertainty to leave us questioning like this because I thought the same at the back of my mind but didn't know if it was just me being paranoid or reading too much into this but. Yeah. There may be more or something.

They really just left multiple avenues open here. Prediction is difficult.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Oh man, I wonder if all of this is true, it's absolute madness if, like Sephiroth, she is aware of "the OG" which is what should be. Then they'd both be working towards the future they want to happen - Sephiroth wanting to become a god, and Aerith to save the planet (and herself?).
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I honestly don't know how much of that is or isn't the case however Sephiroth and Aerith exist on the same level at opposing ends.

It's wild. I don't know. It's an unknown variable. Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's Cetra-future :monster:
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
I think its misleading, SQ knew damn well what people asked for all these years, and the consensus of what a Remake entails, which is relieving the same experience with modern technology.

Ok, the changes to the gameplay were big, but they were advertised very early.

Instead they're Remaking the original with questionable plot-elements that can significantly alter the story outside Midgar, and plot-elements that turn the overall universe way more complex.

So, I dont know, they knew damn well the risk, if the majority will accept this approach is still to be seen, but many will think twice before jumping to part 2...
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
I got accused of being a morally-bankrupt Square shill because I told a guy that we weren't, in fact, lied to by the marketing when they said it was a Remake. What a wild time!
Love the remake but there will always be people who won't. In fact I went into 4chan and just the amount of hate one person had towards nomura and square was sickening saying it is not a remake but a sequel cause retard nomura could not do this thing or whatever and calling everyone retards.

Them calling nomura and square retards clearly proves to me that these quote fans of ff series are not FF fans at all that they just get kicks out of bashing a series that been around when most of us were in diapers or the age of five, they have no love for the hard work square enix does yeah some ff games are little cringy but name calling and such towards ffvii the game that revolutioned the series' future in terms of graphics and story and what not is disgusting.

I apologize if I sound like a complete asshole right now but someone has to be honest and respectful in the fandom and I just happen to be one of those guys
 

Kratos

Pro Adventurer
I think its misleading, SQ knew damn well what people asked for all these years, and the consensus of what a Remake entails, which is relieving the same experience with modern technology.

Ok, the changes to the gameplay were big, but they were advertised very early.

Instead they're Remaking the original with questionable plot-elements that can significantly alter the story outside Midgar, and plot-elements that turn the overall universe more complex.

They delivered exactly what they advertised they would: a remake of the Midgar chapter with its elements and story added to and expanded. The Whispers were openly a part of the game from some of the earliest trailers, so they aren't even a surprise - and it remains to be seen how much their presence (and the ending) change the story. If it DOES change the story, it's not until future installments.

Even choosing to interpret all the new stuff generously and in a way that keeps it all as its own story (without involving a parallel original, or alternate timelines), I'm a little apprehensive! But at the risk of insulting people: I think it takes a very knee-jerk and narrow-minded reactionary mindset to feel like you were lied to about this, and requires one to totally ignore the vast majority of the actual game.
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
I am definitely starting to wonder how much she knows.

- Aerith introduces Cloud to Reno as her bodyguard, and asks Cloud "You don't mind, do you? Bodyguard work's not too different from merc stuff, right?" When he expresses surprise at her knowing he's a mercenary, she obviously makes up her response on the spot: "Uh... I guessed! From the sword!" In the original game, he had already told her he does a little bit of everything by this point (when he introduced himself)

- When Cloud asks Aerith whether she's ever heard of Sephiroth and tells her he's got a feeling Seph is still alive, she breaks eye contact, says "Oh...right" in a suddenly serious (perhaps somber?) tone, and walks away saying "C'mon. Let's go" -- much to Cloud's confusion

- When Red XIII first appears to the others, Aerith's expression is calm while the others assume battle stances. When he then runs away, Aerith smiles, says "We need to go!" and runs after him.

When they catch up to him, she says "This child's a friend" and makes the move to reassure him that he is safe rather than it being he who offers the others that reassurance, opposite to the case in the original game. Aerith, in fact, had been frightened by Nanaki at first in the original game. Here, she doesn't once show any concern around him.

Perhaps most notably, Aerith also isn't surprised like the others that Red XIII can talk.

- In her old room in the Shin-Ra building, Aerith says "The Shinra Electric Power Company isn't the real enemy. It started with them, sure...but I promise you...there's a much bigger threat. I just want to do everything in my power to help. All of you... And the planet."

Tifa replies "Aerith. What are you not telling us?"

Aerith: "I'm lost in a maze, and...every step is taking me further from the path... Every time the Whispers touch me...I lose something. A part of myself."

For someone who was supposedly just selling flowers a couple of days ago and "didn't know" Sephiroth was alive because the news five years ago said he was dead, she suddenly knows a lot about what's going on with the world.

- Aerith seems to already know about Jenova (by name even) when the party approaches its containment cylinder. She will also later refer to it as "The source. Of everything" as the Jenova Dreamweaver battle begins.

- Before the party boards the elevator going to President Shinra's office, Aerith is the one to say "Once we get in that elevator, there's no turning back."

- Before entering the Whisper singularity, Aerith briefly stops the party from continuing to deliver a passionate and ominous series of lines:

"This is the point of no return. Destiny's crossroads. … Freedom. Boundless, terrifying freedom. Like a great, never-ending sky. … Sephiroth has to be stopped. He has to be. And that's why... I'm asking you to help me. I know that, together, we can do this. But if we do... We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed...if we win...we'll be changing ourselves..."
----

Could some of this just be "Because she's a Cetra"? Sure. But given there's things she seems aware of here that she wasn't aware of in the original despite being a Cetra there too ... Well, it's very interesting.
Well we know it follows original no time traveling stuff or like that my guess she remembered cloud in sector 5 upper plate saying he does lot of dangerous stuff and put two and two together or when she grabbed his arm in chapter 2 she kind of read his mind? I think that is it or she recognized he had the buster sword and just guessed I am confused about that myself another possibility is that since she can talk to planet maybe she was told by it but I am just throwing guesses not sure myself but that is what I love about some stuff like that it gives you a challenge to figure it out

They delivered exactly what they advertised they would: a remake of the Midgar chapter with its elements and story added to and expanded. The Whispers were openly a part of the game from some of the earliest trailers, so they aren't even a surprise - and it remains to be seen how much their presence (and the ending) change the story. If it DOES change the story, it's not until future installments.

Even choosing to interpret all the new stuff generously and in a way that keeps it all as its own story (without involving a parallel original, or alternate timelines), I'm a little apprehensive! But at the risk of insulting people: I think it takes a very knee-jerk and narrow-minded reactionary mindset to feel like you were lied to about this, and requires one to totally ignore the vast majority of the actual game.
Bingo! I mean sure there are from what I seen of it some wtf moments like what is going on stuff like that but all in all it is just original story of original vii but expanded and changed to give us a more cinematic like quality giving us a whole new look to the story from a different perspective

I am almost the same age as the ff series I am going to be thirty one on sixteenth, I seen lots these last few years but what I said earlier is true, no ff fan would ever and I mean ever go so far and say horrible things about final fantasy and square enix no one.

Yeah I am being bias love me hate me I don't care I am just speaking from experience, the amount of hate remake has gotten is honestly sickening and they are going as far as even hating square and nomura they claim they love ffvii yet nothing but hate at remake for what? For following original just in a different way?.

These fans are stuck in the past or their own perfect world where nothing that goes their way they immediately go all Hitler on, seeing remake I love it hey I love the original as much as anyone else on this site but sometimes new is better and remake proves that so did the games that came before that nothing is perfect and we all will have to deal with it to accept it for what it is to accept that it was revived for us that it came back better and stronger.

This is not from some random fan saying this no I am a true fan a true fan is saying this and don't like too bad cause I am not changing ffvii will always be my number one and remake may someday become number one Daniel out!

If I get kicked off oh well but this in my view needed to be said
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
I just think it is complicated. Is this a pseudo sequel or whatever? Can we really confirm that after that ending? Bc that ending gives us more questions than answers.

We dont know SE's plans, so it's hard to say they misled people. The next part can still be even more faithful to the original than we think. I completely believe however, that if SE was more upfront about what this game entails, thousands of people would not been complaining the way they are rn, as with the people who will get the game on the upcoming days. It's completely understandable what some people are experiencing right now, and their reaction towards it. If they are just spilling blind hate with name calling, well they barely count as an opinion so I'm not talkin about that. I'm talking about the number of respectable people and their complaints, that I have seen a lot.
 

Kratos

Pro Adventurer
I completely believe however, that if SE was more upfront about what this game entails, thousands of people would not been complaining the way they are rn, as with the people who will get the game on the upcoming days. It's completely understandable what some people are experiencing right now, and their reaction towards it. If they are just spilling blind hate with name calling, well they barely count as an opinion so I'm not talkin about that. I'm talking about the number of respectable people and their complaints, that I have seen a lot.

I guess the issue I take with it is...more upfront how? The guy who called me a "shill" predicated his entire rant on the fact that it's a sequel and not a remake, but that's only one possible read of the ending which (like you said) may not even be true in the end.

Also, whatever the case, they clearly wanted the ending segment to be a surprise that left people discussing and theorizing. What more could they have said or shown that would have tempered this without spoiling it all?
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
If the Remake uses the OG as the "First" timeline that some characters are trying to alter, then it pretty much is a sequel to the OG/Compilation. It's just the type of squeal that doesn't require the reader to read the previous installment to know what is going on. You can think of it like a long-running series that is given a new "jumping in" arc so new viewers don't have to archive binge all the old stuff to know what is going on. But that doesn't invalidate the old stuff either for the fans that have read all the old stuff either.

It's just... that isn't called a "Remake". That's a sequel that also works as a stand-alone title.

The thing with surprises is that there are a number of types of surprises a creator can pull off. And some kinds are more appreciated by fans and some are not. Finding out the kind of work you are experiencing is not the kind of work you were sold on (by advertising, the publishers, etc.) is usually one of the bad kinds of surprise. Which is, if this whole "using information from the OG timeline to try to stop it from happening" subtext is correct, I would argue is what has happened with FFVIIR. It was sold as "the OG, but updated for modern gaming". What it has turned into (from the fandom's perspective) is "what if Sephrioth (and Aerith maybe) knew what happened in the OG and tried to make sure their preferred future happened?". Which... isn't what I thought I was going to play.

It should be noted that the change of premise isn't bad in and of itself (although I can't deny that "FFVII characters going back in time" is basically its own genre of FFVII fan-fiction at this point). What is a problem is setting player expectations appropriately so they can be set-up in such a shift in premise. And that is what I think SE didn't do a good job at.

It feels like SE focused on setting player expectation around three things: setting, characters, plot. With the setting and characters their big message was: "This feels like the OG if the OG was made with modern gaming systems in mind". And as it turns out, they were right! The message about the plot had the most "this might be slightly different then what you're used too" mixed in with it, but even that was overshadowed by them telling us that "all the major beats of the OG are going to be there". What was not said was "there will be major beats in there that simply were not in the OG". And on the one hand, I get them not saying that, but on the other, I really wish they would have been less adamant about the plot being so much like the OG.

Everything SE showed us in the previews that did contain plot stuff was the events that were like the OG. Even the events that were not like the OG (Sephrioth controlling the Whispers comes to mind) reminded us of something that was either in the OG or in the Compilation. For Sephrioth controlling the Whispers in the previews, it seemed similar enough to Case of Lifestream: Black that enough of us felt like we knew what might be going on. So I would say that the majority of people sold on playing FFVIIR had been sold the expectation they were getting the plot of the OG. Only by the end of the game, it turned out that wasn't actually the case. There is a new plot, and it's one that rewards the players of the OG more then it rewards new players.

I feel like... SE has gotten two things in literary theory a bit mixed-up in the interviews. And that might be where there is as communication break-down happening. The "events" that happen in a story are not quite the same thing as the "plot" of the story. The events in a story are... more or less the timeline of "what happens" and are very objective. They don't have concepts like theme or meaning added in yet. Which is mainly decided by the "plot" and are much more subjective. The "events" of the OG are largely intact in the Remake. No doubt about that. But the theme and context of those events is... rather different then they are in the OG. Which gives rise to a different plot all together. This wasn't a game about a bunch of people wanting to stop an alien parasite from taking over the world. This was a game about a bunch of people wanting to save their future from another future. And on the one hand, both of those are "saving the world" plots. But what the world is being saved from is different enough that it effects how the rest of the plot feels.

So yeah, this is the same "events" of the OG just like SE said it was. But it's not the same plot. And I really think SE should have stressed that a bit more then they did. Which I don't think they did at all.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
If the Remake uses the OG as the "First" timeline that some characters are trying to alter, then it pretty much is a sequel to the OG/Compilation. It's just the type of squeal that doesn't require the reader to read the previous installment to know what is going on. You can think of it like a long-running series that is given a new "jumping in" arc so new viewers don't have to archive binge all the old stuff to know what is going on. But that doesn't invalidate the old stuff either for the fans that have read all the old stuff either.
Damn good argumentation, it doesnt help this catch surprise was so randomly done
It's just... that isn't called a "Remake". That's a sequel that also works as a stand-alone title.

The thing with surprises is that there are a number of types of surprises a creator can pull off. And some kinds are more appreciated by fans and some are not. Finding out the kind of work you are experiencing is not the kind of work you were sold on (by advertising, the publishers, etc.) is usually one of the bad kinds of surprise. Which is, if this whole "using information from the OG timeline to try to stop it from happening" subtext is correct, I would argue is what has happened with FFVIIR. It was sold as "the OG, but updated for modern gaming". What it has turned into (from the fandom's perspective) is "what if Sephrioth (and Aerith maybe) knew what happened in the OG and tried to make sure their preferred future happened?". Which... isn't what I thought I was going to play.

It should be noted that the change of premise isn't bad in and of itself (although I can't deny that "FFVII characters going back in time" is basically its own genre of FFVII fan-fiction at this point). What is a problem is setting player expectations appropriately so they can be set-up in such a shift in premise. And that is what I think SE didn't do a good job at.

It feels like SE focused on setting player expectation around three things: setting, characters, plot. With the setting and characters their big message was: "This feels like the OG if the OG was made with modern gaming systems in mind". And as it turns out, they were right! The message about the plot had the most "this might be slightly different then what you're used too" mixed in with it, but even that was overshadowed by them telling us that "all the major beats of the OG are going to be there". What was not said was "there will be major beats in there that simply were not in the OG". And on the one hand, I get them not saying that, but on the other, I really wish they would have been less adamant about the plot being so much like the OG.

Everything SE showed us in the previews that did contain plot stuff was the events that were like the OG. Even the events that were not like the OG (Sephrioth controlling the Whispers comes to mind) reminded us of something that was either in the OG or in the Compilation. For Sephrioth controlling the Whispers in the previews, it seemed similar enough to Case of Lifestream: Black that enough of us felt like we knew what might be going on. So I would say that the majority of people sold on playing FFVIIR had been sold the expectation they were getting the plot of the OG. Only by the end of the game, it turned out that wasn't actually the case. There is a new plot, and it's one that rewards the players of the OG more then it rewards new players.

I feel like... SE has gotten two things in literary theory a bit mixed-up in the interviews. And that might be where there is as communication break-down happening. The "events" that happen in a story are not quite the same thing as the "plot" of the story. The events in a story are... more or less the timeline of "what happens" and are very objective. They don't have concepts like theme or meaning added in yet. Which is mainly decided by the "plot" and are much more subjective. The "events" of the OG are largely intact in the Remake. No doubt about that. But the theme and context of those events is... rather different then they are in the OG. Which gives rise to a different plot all together. This wasn't a game about a bunch of people wanting to stop an alien parasite from taking over the world. This was a game about a bunch of people wanting to save their future from another future. And on the one hand, both of those are "saving the world" plots. But what the world is being saved from is different enough that it effects how the rest of the plot feels.

So yeah, this is the same "events" of the OG just like SE said it was. But it's not the same plot. And I really think SE should have stressed that a bit more then they did. Which I don't think they did at all.
If the Remake uses the OG as the "First" timeline that some characters are trying to alter, then it pretty much is a sequel to the OG/Compilation. It's just the type of squeal that doesn't require the reader to read the previous installment to know what is going on. You can think of it like a long-running series that is given a new "jumping in" arc so new viewers don't have to archive binge all the old stuff to know what is going on. But that doesn't invalidate the old stuff either for the fans that have read all the old stuff either.

It's just... that isn't called a "Remake". That's a sequel that also works as a stand-alone title.

The thing with surprises is that there are a number of types of surprises a creator can pull off. And some kinds are more appreciated by fans and some are not. Finding out the kind of work you are experiencing is not the kind of work you were sold on (by advertising, the publishers, etc.) is usually one of the bad kinds of surprise. Which is, if this whole "using information from the OG timeline to try to stop it from happening" subtext is correct, I would argue is what has happened with FFVIIR. It was sold as "the OG, but updated for modern gaming". What it has turned into (from the fandom's perspective) is "what if Sephrioth (and Aerith maybe) knew what happened in the OG and tried to make sure their preferred future happened?". Which... isn't what I thought I was going to play.

It should be noted that the change of premise isn't bad in and of itself (although I can't deny that "FFVII characters going back in time" is basically its own genre of FFVII fan-fiction at this point). What is a problem is setting player expectations appropriately so they can be set-up in such a shift in premise. And that is what I think SE didn't do a good job at.

It feels like SE focused on setting player expectation around three things: setting, characters, plot. With the setting and characters their big message was: "This feels like the OG if the OG was made with modern gaming systems in mind". And as it turns out, they were right! The message about the plot had the most "this might be slightly different then what you're used too" mixed in with it, but even that was overshadowed by them telling us that "all the major beats of the OG are going to be there". What was not said was "there will be major beats in there that simply were not in the OG". And on the one hand, I get them not saying that, but on the other, I really wish they would have been less adamant about the plot being so much like the OG.

Everything SE showed us in the previews that did contain plot stuff was the events that were like the OG. Even the events that were not like the OG (Sephrioth controlling the Whispers comes to mind) reminded us of something that was either in the OG or in the Compilation. For Sephrioth controlling the Whispers in the previews, it seemed similar enough to Case of Lifestream: Black that enough of us felt like we knew what might be going on. So I would say that the majority of people sold on playing FFVIIR had been sold the expectation they were getting the plot of the OG. Only by the end of the game, it turned out that wasn't actually the case. There is a new plot, and it's one that rewards the players of the OG more then it rewards new players.

I feel like... SE has gotten two things in literary theory a bit mixed-up in the interviews. And that might be where there is as communication break-down happening. The "events" that happen in a story are not quite the same thing as the "plot" of the story. The events in a story are... more or less the timeline of "what happens" and are very objective. They don't have concepts like theme or meaning added in yet. Which is mainly decided by the "plot" and are much more subjective. The "events" of the OG are largely intact in the Remake. No doubt about that. But the theme and context of those events is... rather different then they are in the OG. Which gives rise to a different plot all together. This wasn't a game about a bunch of people wanting to stop an alien parasite from taking over the world. This was a game about a bunch of people wanting to save their future from another future. And on the one hand, both of those are "saving the world" plots. But what the world is being saved from is different enough that it effects how the rest of the plot feels.

So yeah, this is the same "events" of the OG just like SE said it was. But it's not the same plot. And I really think SE should have stressed that a bit more then they did. Which I don't think they did at all.
Well put, it doesnt help this surprise was presented in such a randomnly manner, it feels out of place even in its own game.

too much cryptic information put together one after the next, characters jumping from between dimensions, space, visions, hallucinations... in such a short time you fight a giant from the future, armored killing machines, aliens and a flying maniac... Lol
 
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