SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Theozilla]

I don't think Aerith has knowledge of the OG (as something that already happened) and I don't think the Remake is meant to be viewed as a pseudo-sequel (a la the Star Trek reboot films/Rebuild of Evangelion films) to the OG/Compilation. I do think Aerith is being written with more spiritual knowledge/awareness of things though and can probably probably understand premonitions better than others, but I don't think they are going to be writing her as aware of her death and deliberating sacrificing her life in the future installments.

However, after thinking (and seeing some the chapter 17 clips) last night I do think the Whispers may have a role in giving Aerith some form of revelation, since they are described as the "will of the Planet". Since the Whispers appear to be trying to communicate something to Aerith (when Sephiroth isn't manipulating/controlling them) I think maybe they'll end up informing Aerith of what the White Materia is and does and telling her she has to go to the City of the Ancients to activate it (IIRC it was never elaborated in the OG exactly why Aerith had to go to the City of the Ancients specifically to activate Holy right?).

 

[Wol]

I wonder what Aerith meant when she said she loses a part of herself when the sperm ghosts are around?

Also why Red XIII is so sure the vision of him running in a wasteland is a future to avoid?

But most importantly, if Aeris knew about OG then her aim would be to protect the order of things, considering in the OG things went well but she chose to defy fate instead which is basically what Seph wanted... therefore I dont think she has full knowledge of OG.

 

[Firstone33]

If the Remake uses the OG as the "First" timeline that some characters are trying to alter, then it pretty much is a sequel to the OG/Compilation. It's just the type of squeal that doesn't require the reader to read the previous installment to know what is going on. You can think of it like a long-running series that is given a new "jumping in" arc so new viewers don't have to archive binge all the old stuff to know what is going on. But that doesn't invalidate the old stuff either for the fans that have read all the old stuff either.

It's just... that isn't called a "Remake". That's a sequel that also works as a stand-alone title.

The thing with surprises is that there are a number of types of surprises a creator can pull off. And some kinds are more appreciated by fans and some are not. Finding out the kind of work you are experiencing is not the kind of work you were sold on (by advertising, the publishers, etc.) is usually one of the bad kinds of surprise. Which is, if this whole "using information from the OG timeline to try to stop it from happening" subtext is correct, I would argue is what has happened with FFVIIR. It was sold as "the OG, but updated for modern gaming". What it has turned into (from the fandom's perspective) is "what if Sephrioth (and Aerith maybe) knew what happened in the OG and tried to make sure their preferred future happened?". Which... isn't what I thought I was going to play.

It should be noted that the change of premise isn't bad in and of itself (although I can't deny that "FFVII characters going back in time" is basically its own genre of FFVII fan-fiction at this point). What is a problem is setting player expectations appropriately so they can be set-up in such a shift in premise. And that is what I think SE didn't do a good job at.

It feels like SE focused on setting player expectation around three things: setting, characters, plot. With the setting and characters their big message was: "This feels like the OG if the OG was made with modern gaming systems in mind". And as it turns out, they were right! The message about the plot had the most "this might be slightly different then what you're used too" mixed in with it, but even that was overshadowed by them telling us that "all the major beats of the OG are going to be there". What was not said was "there will be major beats in there that simply were not in the OG". And on the one hand, I get them not saying that, but on the other, I really wish they would have been less adamant about the plot being so much like the OG.

Everything SE showed us in the previews that did contain plot stuff was the events that were like the OG. Even the events that were not like the OG (Sephrioth controlling the Whispers comes to mind) reminded us of something that was either in the OG or in the Compilation. For Sephrioth controlling the Whispers in the previews, it seemed similar enough to Case of Lifestream: Black that enough of us felt like we knew what might be going on. So I would say that the majority of people sold on playing FFVIIR had been sold the expectation they were getting the plot of the OG. Only by the end of the game, it turned out that wasn't actually the case. There is a new plot, and it's one that rewards the players of the OG more then it rewards new players.

I feel like... SE has gotten two things in literary theory a bit mixed-up in the interviews. And that might be where there is as communication break-down happening. The "events" that happen in a story are not quite the same thing as the "plot" of the story. The events in a story are... more or less the timeline of "what happens" and are very objective. They don't have concepts like theme or meaning added in yet. Which is mainly decided by the "plot" and are much more subjective. The "events" of the OG are largely intact in the Remake. No doubt about that. But the theme and context of those events is... rather different then they are in the OG. Which gives rise to a different plot all together. This wasn't a game about a bunch of people wanting to stop an alien parasite from taking over the world. This was a game about a bunch of people wanting to save their future from another future. And on the one hand, both of those are "saving the world" plots. But what the world is being saved from is different enough that it effects how the rest of the plot feels.

So yeah, this is the same "events" of the OG just like SE said it was. But it's not the same plot. And I really think SE should have stressed that a bit more then they did. Which I don't think they did at all.

I understand ya never know with square enix

 

[Kratos]

If the Remake uses the OG as the "First" timeline that some characters are trying to alter, then it pretty much is a sequel to the OG/Compilation. It's just the type of squeal that doesn't require the reader to read the previous installment to know what is going on. You can think of it like a long-running series that is given a new "jumping in" arc so new viewers don't have to archive binge all the old stuff to know what is going on. But that doesn't invalidate the old stuff either for the fans that have read all the old stuff either.

This premise can only really serve as a sequel if it involves people from the "First" timeline actively altering things as a result of what came before. If it's simply a person within this story being able to see what will happen and acting to change it, then it has no (Watsonian) interaction with any other texts and thus isn't a sequel (which by definition is a story that occurs after and as a result of the events of another).

Therefore, whether or not FFVII:R is a sequel depends completely on whether or not the theory of Sephiroth traversing time post-Advent Children is true or not, and right now, there's just not enough evidence to conclusively prove that. It doesn't contradict what happens, but you do have to actively read it as such. Feeling lied to, then, is at least mostly a personal decision (though I do think the devs deserve a bit of blame for leaving things so ambiguous).

 

[Theozilla]

Been brainstorming about how the following Remake installment might be structured, presuming that each part maintains 18 chapters (and that the Remake will be a trilogy total). Created two different chapter breakdowns based on whether the second installment ends at Aerith's death or at Meteor summoning/WEAPONs waking up.

Scenario #1
1. Nibelheim Flashback
2. Kalm & Chocobo Farm & Mythril Mines
3. Fort Condor & Original Yuffie Joining Party Scenario
4. Junon & Cargo Ship
5. Costa del Sol
6. Mount Corel & North Corel
7. Gold Saucer & Corel Prison
8. Gongaga
9. Cosmo Canyon
10-11. Nibelheim & Vincent
12. Rocket Town & Cid
13-14. Wutai & Wutai Area Continent
15. Gold Saucer Second Visit & Temple of the Ancients
16. Bone Village & Forgotten Capital (i.e. Aerith’s death)
17. Northern Continent (Icicle Inn, The Great Glacier, Gaea’s Cliff)
18. Whirlwind Maze & Northern Crater

* * * *

Scenario #2
1. Nibelheim Flashback
2. Kalm & Chocobo Farm & Mythril Mines
3. Fort Condor & Original Yuffie Joining Party Scenario
4. Junon & Cargo Ship
5. Costa del Sol
6. Mount Corel & North Corel
7. Gold Saucer & Corel Prison
8. Gongaga
9. Cosmo Canyon
10-11. Nibelheim & Vincent
12. Rocket Town & Cid
13-14. Wutai & Wutai Area Continent
15. Original Scenario & Gold Saucer Second Visit
16. Temple of the Ancients
17. Bone Village & First Half of Northern Continent Expanded (Modeoheim?)
18. Forgotten Capital (i.e. Aerith’s death)

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Granted I haven't really thought this through, but I think the trip to Wutai won't happen in the second game, even though you could technically go there in the OG. For one, they've already got plenty of areas to make as part of the mandatory story line that doing an "optional" area in part 2 seems unnecessary. For another--and more importantly--it seems like the Wutai War is a much bigger deal this time around, so it makes more sense to "save" Wutai for part 3 and then expand it to a more significant degree. Maybe that's where the expanded Avalanche story line could come to a finale, rather than Wutai just being a place to deal with Yuffie.

 

[Theozilla]

I think Wutai will definitely be expanded (which is why I gave it two chapters in my breakdown), but I also think it's pretty important for the Wutai scenario to occur before Meteor summoning (or Aerith's death) for multiple reasons. One, I think it's important to be able to see how Wutai is functioning before the threat of meteor is hanging over everyone's head, as I expect for the Remake having Meteor in the sky should arguably be given almost as much significance as the change the World of Ruin caused in FFVI. Secondly, it flows/fits much more naturally for Yuffie's character to have some sort of falling out with the party (be it just materia stealing like in the OG, or something more original/expanded in the Remake) to occur before Aerith's death and/or Meteor summon, as it would make Yuffie's actions seem far more nonsensical and cruel if they occurred after those major events (like what point is there when an entire Meteor is hanging overhead).

Now this doesn't preclude for there being additional Wutai material to be added in the final/part 3 installment (like how Rocket Town and Corel and Cosmo Canyon to a lesser degree, are revisited for Cid and Barret and Nanaki), as I am confident the Huge Materia quests will be subject to major rewrites and Wutai would clearly have a vested interest in stopping Meteor/dealing with the rampaging WEAPONs too. But I think it's essential for Wutai to be visited in some form before the really big major plot events (Aerith's death and Meteor summon).

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

You raise a lot of good points. However they address the amount of land they have to cover in part 2, cutting Wutai isn't really a viable option.

If I were to do chapter breakdowns--assuming 18 chapters like part 1--it'd look something like this:
1. Nibelheim flashback
2. Chocobo farm to Mythril Mines
3. Yuffie and Fort Condor
4. Junon
5. Cargo ship
6. Costa del Sol and road to Corel
7. Corel
8. Gold Saucer
9. Corel prison and escape to Gongaga
10. Cosmo Canyon
11. Nibelheim
12. Mount Nibel
13. Rocket Town
14. Road to Wutai
15. Wutai
16. Gold Saucer redux and Keystone
17. Finding the Temple
18. Temple of the Ancients

During my replay of FFVII last year, I thought the Temple of the Ancients would make the best ending for part 2--it reminded me for the world of the end of Empire Strikes Back and that's a great midpart ending. Plus, saves them from having to make another continent in part 2. The bolded parts above are your mini-hubs where the story takes a bit of a break and gives you a second to do some sidequests.

 

[Theozilla]

That's also an interesting breakdown scenario, however, considering how much Aerith's death and Meteor are meta-winked at the player/audience in this first installment, I think the next part (presuming 3 games total) would at least have to have one of those two events occur in the next Remake installment.

Oh and for those interested this person has uploaded a good quality full walkthrough of the game (minus most side-quests i believe).
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXLbXyR94Z8scG7BrMkRFP9UI-KT-whyY

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This premise can only really serve as a sequel if it involves people from the "First" timeline actively altering things as a result of what came before. If it's simply a person within this story being able to see what will happen and acting to change it, then it has no (Watsonian) interaction with any other texts and thus isn't a sequel (which by definition is a story that occurs after and as a result of the events of another).

Therefore, whether or not FFVII:R is a sequel depends completely on whether or not the theory of Sephiroth traversing time post-Advent Children is true or not, and right now, there's just not enough evidence to conclusively prove that. It doesn't contradict what happens, but you do have to actively read it as such. Feeling lied to, then, is at least mostly a personal decision (though I do think the devs deserve a bit of blame for leaving things so ambiguous).

Hmmm ehhhh

For me, I'd still call that a sequel because the events of the one follow on from the events of the other.

I realize there's a whole literary thing to be made of distinctions at various levels -- e.g. whether it is plot, characters, or just a setting that carries over; whether one is even using the word "sequel" on a more Watsonian basis or as literary analysis; etc. It's not really the sort of debate that interests me, though.

I'm going to call it a sort-of sequel because its story stems from the story of the original game as a matter of some in-setting reason.

 

[Theozilla]

Hmmm ehhhh

For me, I'd still call that a sequel because the events of the one follow on from the events of the other.

I realize there's a whole literary thing to be made of distinctions at various levels -- e.g. whether it is plot, characters, or just a setting that carries over; whether one is even using the word "sequel" on a more Watsonian basis or as literary analysis; etc. It's not really the sort of debate that interests me, though.
I'm going to call it a sort-of sequel because its story stems from the story of the original game as a matter of some in-setting reason.

But the original game doesn't exist as a matter of some in-setting (Watsonian) reason in the Remake. The OG only exists on a meta level in that the developers are "winking" (for lack of a better term) to the players/audience who are the playing the Remake. After seeing more of the full context of the Whispers, I second what Kratos says, there would have to be an actual indication that characters/information are traversing distinct timelines in future installments (which so far there isn't any). Presently, the Remake just has time-wimey destiny/fate stuff occurring within then context of its own self-contained narrative. Unless something drastically changes to indicate otherwise in future installments (or developer interviews), calling the Remake a sequel (or even a pseudo kinda sequel) is just inaccurate.

 

[Firstone33]

Maybe it could be a sequel maybe not it all depends on next part, maybe and this is a big if it is true then we are seeing two different timelines one of what could have been aka Zack surviving against shinra and the original timeline where Zack is dead and the events of original ffvii still occur but altered slightly of course that is speculation at this time

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's a mystery with the answer of possible OG -> Remake overlap as a possible result, however it is like much else, purposefully ambiguous.

There is something afoot here though.

 

[Kratos]

In addition to what @Theozilla said...

I realize there's a whole literary thing to be made of distinctions at various levels -- e.g. whether it is plot, characters, or just a setting that carries over; whether one is even using the word "sequel" on a more Watsonian basis or as literary analysis; etc. It's not really the sort of debate that interests me, though.

The semantics are only really noteworthy because the people crying "SeQuEl!" aren't simply trying to categorize - they're using semantics of terminology as a form of criticism themselves, I suspect because the game's defiance of expectations feels like a betrayal, so they're searching for a way to objectively present the game as the lie they felt they just experienced. Except on the semantic level, the label of "sequel" doesn't really apply to the game unless certain very specific theories are true, which we don't know yet, so I'd argue it's one of the very few outright WRONG criticisms one could make.

 

[Theozilla]

One thing I am wondering that might be changed during for the Remake (especially since Aerith and Red XIII indicate they already know of Jenova's true history and extra-terrestrial origins), is if in the Nibelheim flashback Sephiroth will still initially think Jenova is a Ancient/Cetra from the old Mansion materials. Since we already know Ifalna told Professor Gast (when they were living in the Northern Continent) that Jenova is/was actually an alien, and presumably Hojo would have later found out as well from Gast's video notes or Ifalna herself while she was living in the Shinra building. One would think the Shinra mansion notes would have been updated to more accurate information.

It always seemed like a unnecessary double revelation for Sephiroth, first going crazy thinking he was an Ancient, and then later being told that off-screen he found out through the Lifestream that Jenova's actually an alien, and being crazy business as usual.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But the original game doesn't exist as a matter of some in-setting (Watsonian) reason in the Remake. The OG only exists on a meta level in that the developers are "winking" (for lack of a better term) to the players/audience who are the playing the Remake. After seeing more of the full context of the Whispers, I second what Kratos says, there would have to be an actual indication that characters/information are traversing distinct timelines in future installments (which so far there isn't any). Presently, the Remake just has time-wimey destiny/fate stuff occurring within then context of its own self-contained narrative. Unless something drastically changes to indicate otherwise in future installments (or developer interviews), calling the Remake a sequel (or even a pseudo kinda sequel) is just inaccurate.

I disagree.

The game is explicit that "whispers" of a future timeline are manifesting themselves in this one, and Sephiroth is clearly acting on information from that other timeline.

Now, I guess, if one wanted to get really pedantic about it, they could point out that we don't know beyond the shadow of all doubt that this other timeline is that of the original game. Maybe it's just one that's 99.999(infinitely repeating decimal)% identical to that of the original game, and we don't even know about the lone dust particle's difference between them.

In which case, okay, but that counterargument's still going to apply in the next game, even if Seph openly monologues about his knowledge, his consciousness even, traversing timelines. Hell, we could expand the notion to suggest that the timeline of FFVIIR and the next game may also be another example of these 99.999% siblings.

At a certain point, we will run out of an appreciable difference between the original FFVII and this technically unidentified alternate timeline. For me, we're there already.

In addition to what @Theozilla said...

The semantics are only really noteworthy because the people crying "SeQuEl!" aren't simply trying to categorize - they're using semantics of terminology as a form of criticism themselves, I suspect because the game's defiance of expectations feels like a betrayal, so they're searching for a way to objectively present the game as the lie they felt they just experienced. Except on the semantic level, the label of "sequel" doesn't really apply to the game unless certain very specific theories are true, which we don't know yet, so I'd argue it's one of the very few outright WRONG criticisms one could make.

Over the decades of fandom, we've seen many terms get this treatment. "AU." "Retcon." "Reboot." "Remake." None of them have ever been inherently negative, and neither is "sequel" now its turn has come up to the whipping post.

I'm just going to keep doing what I've always done: call a spade "a bladed implement for digging, typically in the fucking ground"; and challenge people to present a rational basis for erroneous attempts to utilize an inherently neutral term as though it is self-evidently negative.

 

[Theozilla]

I disagree.

The game is explicit that "whispers" of a future timeline are manifesting themselves in this one, and Sephiroth is clearly acting on information from that other timeline.

Now, I guess, if one wanted to get really pedantic about it, they could point out that we don't know beyond the shadow of all doubt that this other timeline is that of the original game. Maybe it's just one that's 99.999(infinitely repeating decimal)% identical to that of the original game, and we don't even know about the lone dust particle's difference between them.

In which case, okay, but that counterargument's still going to apply in the next game, even if Seph openly monologues about his knowledge, his consciousness even, traversing timelines. Hell, we could expand the notion to suggest that the timeline of FFVIIR and the next game may also be another example of these 99.999% siblings.

At a certain point, we will run out of an appreciable difference between the original FFVII and this technically unidentified alternate timeline. For me, we're there already.

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other based on schematics, I don't deny that that Whispers are from the future (though they are implied to exist all through out time like 4th dimensional being, so they collectively are also simultaneously from the past and present), and that Sephiroth has some form of knowledge or "awareness" of the future. But it's the future of the Remake itself (which presumably is following the basic FFVII story), it's not a distinctly separate OG timeline that's already occurred/is parallel to the Remake within the Watsonian narrative. Sephiroth in the Remake isn't traveling body or mind from the future (like the Star Trek reboot films and/or X-Men: Days of Future Past), it's present day Remake Sephiroth but with more temporal omniscience/"knowledge".
That's why it's inaccurate to call the Remake a sequel.

Over the decades of fandom, we've seen many terms get this treatment. "AU." "Retcon." "Reboot." "Remake." None of them have ever been inherently negative, and neither is "sequel" now its turn has come up to the whipping post.

I'm just going to keep doing what I've always done: call a spade "a bladed implement for digging, typically in the fucking ground"; and challenge people to present a rational basis for erroneous attempts to utilize an inherently neutral term as though it is self-evidently negative.

I don't care about the qualitative connotations of the term "Sequel", I just care about using accurate terminology that describes what is occurring in the narrative. Calling the Remake a sequel indicates that there is some person/thing that has already experienced the the distinct events of the OG and chronologically, relative to said person/thing, is experiencing the events of the Remake afterwards, which currently the Remake does not lend itself to said interpretation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The best comparison is how Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift ends up being confirmed as a post time-skip sequel to the original Final Fantasy Tactics Advance upon completion of every mission and beating the game, when Luso's librarian is revealed to be Mewt Randell.

We just have yet to have any actual confirmation like that

 

[Theozilla]

One interesting world building detail I noticed, was from right before Cloud and co. sneak into the Shinra building. Cloud describes the war with Wutai only ended with a “cease-fire”, so besides Wutai obviously going to have a larger role in the narrative of future installments, I am guessing Wutai also won’t be portrayed as “conquered“ and/or a tourist trap like it was in the OG. I’m guessing the defeated state of Wutai will be treated with more gravitas and tension.

 

[Eerie]

I do not believe this is a sequel in the trict sense of the term - let's not change words, Remake is the perfect word choice for this game. A sequel would mean that everything has already happened, but it hasn't yet, in truth. It also makes us wonder up until what point Aerith (and Sephiroth) are aware of the future.

Aerith says so "the future is a blank page" - it hasn't has happened yet. It's up to them to make those visions not happen - but the problem is, several visions are mixed there. There are visions of what we, as the players, know that happened in the FFVII world, but that our characters haven't lived yet, and there are apocalyptic visions of what would happen if you fail the "save the planet" mission. The future is a blank page so whatever we're going to do is still write FFVII. It hasn't happened. Thus, it can't be a sequel of itself.

As such, I do not believe that Aerith knows everything - I am quite sure that she doesn't know her own fate. Is the Aerith that visited Cloud in a dream herself, or her future self? I tend to think the latter, if the guardians of fate come from the future, then surely Aerith has ways to not only show some glimpses of it, but probably to communicate in this strange focus point where present and future collide. It was probably the same for Sephiroth until he came to control the whispers, and was able to show the reality he wants to write too.

I have wondered though if they can do various endings (at least two; one where you fail and one where you don't that's just like the OG) like Mass Effect, I'm still not sure they're going that route, but they're sure showing possibilities.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So now that enough folks seem to have finished the game, I'm going to state a couple of potentially controversial opinions.

— The Sector 7 plate collapse: despite an absolutely perfect build-up to that moment, the developers insisted on taking the punch out of this sequence in various ways. Others have already pointed out that the battle music playing over the whole collapse scene really takes away from it. I'm hoping a patch fixes that. And Cait Sith's random cameo is such a jarring juxtaposition, I can only imagine how "WTF" that must be for newcomers to FFVII.

Also, the fact that almost no one we know actually dies in that whole catastrophe is seriously questionable. Not only do Biggs and Wedge survive it, basically every named NPC from Sector 7 except Jessie lives -- and we now even have some cause to wonder about her.

Granted, the player doesn't know all that at the time, but the gravity of loss from Sector 7 was never undercut on subsequent playthroughs of the original game.

Still, the scene in this game between Cloud, Tifa, and Barret as they leave the Sector 7 ruins behind with an alive Wedge is great, and may justify the price of admission on that particular count. Also, the use of Reno and Rude throughout the platefall sequence is fucking fantastic -- precisely what we wanted from the Turks in this remake

— So, Rufus's introduction: we lose the party's speculation about him ("I've heard that no one's ever seen him bleed or cry"), as well as his "appointment speech." Utter fail, though Rufus himself and the fight with him look as properly cool as they should be.

 

[Theozilla]

I’m guessing they’re saving Rufus’ proper full introduction a la “meet the new boss” for the next part. Guess they felt having Rufus pontificate to everyone would jar with the pacing and seem redundant after Shinra Sr. had given his own monologue to Barret before his death.

Though I am glad they retained the cheesy introductions (“local florist” and “lab rat dog”) by moving it to a confrontation with Heidegger.

 

[Misterbadguy]

Have to agree, really not a fan of the evacuation of the Sector 7 slums, as morbid as that sounds, and it's the named NPCs that are the problem. They're your point of reference for effectively the entire population of the slums, so them surviving kind of makes it seem like the plate drop was less big of a deal than I think it should've been.

 

[Tetsujin]

Have to agree, really not a fan of the evacuation of the Sector 7 slums, as morbid as that sounds, and it's the named NPCs that are the problem. They're your point of reference for effectively the entire population of the slums, so them surviving kind of makes it seem like the plate drop was less big of a deal than I think it should've been.

Agreed. The entire time I was like "ah yes, named NPCS, a landlady who is kinda cool, yes good, make me like those NPCs so that it will hurt even more when they're all DEAD, tug on me heartstrings, game! I know what you're doing and I will shed GLORIOUS TEARS when the time comes!"

And then it was like
"oh uh...I guess y'all live huh. uh, good for you. I'll just throw away these tombstones I had pre-made for y'all. this is kinda awkward tbh"

"man, poor Wedge and the cats though, they got totally cru- oh hey there they are"

"ah look, Biggs is back.

...wait, hold up, fuckin' BIGGS is BACK?!"

Guess out of the trio only Jessie truly kicked the bucket. We probably won't hear the end of that one.

 

[Theozilla]

Wedge is still explicitly implied to die though, he just falls to his death from the Shinra building later in the game (due to the Whispers shoving him out) instead of the support column.