FFVII Remake's Director: What even is life

[Starling]

Probably. Seems like he mostly wanted to kill off Tidus again, consequences be damned. It didn't have to be quite the disaster it was but didn't the guy who make metal gear hate it and make a bunch of asspulls and retcons because of that? I can't really think of a more appropriate example but I figure it's comparable.

 

[Lulcielid]

I don't think Nojima has ever directed anything.

Yes he did. Bahamut Lagoon. However, I still don´t think Nojima has a good grasp of how game design works, compare to writing.

Bring back Sakaguchi. That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion.

I think Sakaguchi right now must be caring about Final Fantasy as much as Hideo Kojima cares about Metal Gear Solid right now.

Spoiler

Barely a s***

The point I suppose is that it was a collaborative effort.

That´s FFVII writing in a nutshell, it was never writen by a single individual alone, it´s a mix-mash of different ideas from different people.

Re: Actual thread topic.

I think Tetsuya Nomura is OK as the director, so long as Yoshinori Kitase is there to do some editorial control, everything is fine. Nomura is guy with great ideas...who just needs an editor to keep his ideas at bay from going off rails.

If Nomura is not a good candidate, then I would say a new person would have been a good choice as director.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yes he did. Bahamut Lagoon.

Huh, I was not aware of that.

 

[Splintered]

I actually think Nomura is fine as a storyteller. He's got some bad signs but given restraint he can pull off something entertaining.

What I think is that the entirety of Squenix has a problem with stories that aren't self contained. Everytime they want to build on a story, they end up shitting themselves. The first Kingdom Hearts was great, issues here and there but an enjoyable simple story with a few decent ideas that ended up as fun plot twists. I thought The World Ends With You was great.

Then people are like, hey more Kingdom Hearts and it went full insane. Same thing with XIII, VII, and I heard IV's expansions aren't that great.

I like Nojima. I liked him more after that Tidus incident, I absolutely saw it as a big middle finger for fucking with what was a fantastic ending for some silly pop twist game which was nice but didn't fit in with the FFX world.

I actually don't care too much about Sakaguchi, at least for FFVII. I don't think his style suits FFVII well enough, although the last Sakaguchi game I played was Lost Odyssey, fantastic but he's definitely got his own atmosphere to it. I straight up didn't like Blue Dragon but didn't play Last Story or his new mobile game (which apparently was pretty okay).

Kitase is an absolute wildcard for me. I don't know what to expect from him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There's this from Wikipedia:

In early planning stages of Final Fantasy VII, Aerith was to be one of only three protagonists; herself, Cloud and Barret. During a phone call to Kitase, it was suggested that at some point in the game, one of the main characters should die, and after much discussion as to whether it should be Barret or Aerith, the producers chose Aerith. Nomura stated in a 2005 Electronic Gaming Monthly interview: "Cloud's the main character, so you can't really kill him. And Barrett... [sic] well, that's maybe too obvious."[30] While designing Final Fantasy VII, Nomura was frustrated with the "perennial cliché where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love." He found this trope appeared in both films and video games from North America and Japan, and asked "Is it right to set such an example to people?"[31] Kitase concluded: "In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."[31]

What's great (i.e. not great at all) is that this sensibility is precisely the opposite of what was done with Zack's death in Crisis Core, when its depiction in the original game had been more in line with Aerith's.

In a nutshell, that's what I expect to see from the remake: More forgetting most of what made the original what it was.

But it may be fun to play, and it will certainly be fun to explore Midgar like new again, so I look forward to that.

 

[Theozilla]

What's great (i.e. not great at all) is that this sensibility is precisely the opposite of what was done with Zack's death in Crisis Core, when its depiction in the original game had been more in line with Aerith's.

In a nutshell, that's what I expect to see from the remake: More forgetting most what made the original what it was.

While Zack's OG death depiction might have had some thematic similarities to the sensibilities of Aerith's death (and even then, in the OG there are differences regarding the circumstances of deaths that make them differ), I don't think their presentation and significance/iconography to overall game can be said to be very similar (Aerith's death being a mandatory essential scene given a fully prerendered cutscene that became a culturally iconic scene, while Zack's was a optional bonus flashback depicted with the in game engine, like Professor Gast's death).

With that in mind I think it is understandable why the depiction of Zack's death in Crisis Core was modified (and that's not even taking into account how the improved graphics and the very structure/existence of Crisis Core having Zack as the protagonist POV would have automatically changed the death scene regardless of a change in the staff's sensibilities) since it's original depiction probably wasn't viewed as being some essential cornerstone scene that's nigh untouchable like Aerith's death was/is.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Zack's death in the original obviously isn't as iconic as Aerith's. That really has no bearing on whether it could have been done the same in CC as in the original or at least with those same sensibilities.

 

[Theozilla]

Zack's death in the original obviously isn't as iconic as Aerith's. That really has no bearing on whether it could have been done the same in CC as in the original or at least with those same sensibilities.

Well my commentary on the iconicity of Zack's was more to extrapolate (and defend slightly, as I personally quite enjoy/prefer the CC modifications of the scene) on the "why" of Zack's death scene being changed in CC (and that I don't think the creators "forgot" what made the OG what it is, but rather have different valuations of what less iconic elements of the OG they think are essential and unchangeable and what aren't, than what you or I may think are/are not), and why it is unlikely for more significant/essential elements of the OG, like Aerith's death, to be modified/"forgotten" in the Remake.

The "could" is a different matter, which is more related to my note of how the improved graphics/technology and the structure of the game being Zack's POV automatically changes the depiction of scene (similar how to giving voice acting to originally voiceless characters automatically changes people's reading/reaction to them due to the degree of subjective/personalized interpretation being reduced).

 

[Pixel]

I really hope they've matured since this shit.
https://youtu.be/U5YP4vA6TZo?t=6m10s

I fear SE lack the awareness of this kind of gratuitous stuff. Maybe its a cultural thing, like with Cidney, but I hope Nomura keeps it classy. Anti-SJW can fuck off, I dont care. I dont want that shit in my game.

 

[Ite]

Yes. We're all I assume as cautiously optimistic as we were when the reveal teaser launched, but the "cautiously" has a lot to do I think with the way things were "significantized" in the Comp.

 

[ForceStealer]

I really hope they've matured since this shit.
https://youtu.be/U5YP4vA6TZo?t=6m10s

I fear SE lack the awareness of this kind of gratuitous stuff. Maybe its a cultural thing, like with Cidney, but I hope Nomura keeps it classy. Anti-SJW can fuck off, I dont care. I dont want that shit in my game.

I haven't seen them do anything like (the FFX camera) since FFX, so I dunno what the concern is here. They'll have skimpy outfits, sure, but the XIII games never had those shots of asses and such that I can recall.

 

[Blade]

As someone partly to blame for this thread's existence, I'll just say my two cents:

Being an artist AND writer is tough... you have to balance the number of irons you've got in the fire. Too many irons (read: projects) and nothing gets done.

That's the sensation I get from Nomura. He just had too much on his plate, lately.

Maybe things will settle down with Kingdom Hearts III.

As for the Remake, he's got several people in his corner that have worked on other FFs, and they have plenty of experience (even more since FFXV's near-completion), so I don't think he'll lag behind for much longer.

We'll probably see more good stuff from him in the future (optimistically speaking).

 

[hian]

I really hope they've matured since this shit.
https://youtu.be/U5YP4vA6TZo?t=6m10s

I fear SE lack the awareness of this kind of gratuitous stuff. Maybe its a cultural thing, like with Cidney, but I hope Nomura keeps it classy. Anti-SJW can fuck off, I dont care. I dont want that shit in my game.

I watched that review and felt that statement come right out of left-field.
As a person who's played X like 10 times now, I never actually noticed any of those scenes =S
Looking at some of the scenes in the review though, it feels more random than anything since shots like that weird pulsating one of Lulu's breasts follows a weird pulsating shot of Auron's back giving me the impression that the camera is just being psychotic and Lulu happens to have breasts which has a rather unfortunate result for the cinematography

Not saying you or anyone else are wrong or anything - and I'm fully aware of how much fan-service exist in most Japanese games.

Just personally speaking, FFX surprised me as being on people's radar for that.
Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but that's probably one of the least sexy games I can think of.
I don't think I played that game and ever had a single thought venture towards the sexuality of the female cast, and that's much less than what I can say for FFVII, or many other JRPGs I've played over the years.

That being said though - sexual fan-service is a cultural thing in Japan.
And it goes both ways (male and female characters). It is not viewed nor thought of as remotely problematic.

That being said - I am getting a distinct feeling from both the trailer, and from FFVX, that SE is taking a very western directional approach with the FF franchise. They're really trying (even if they might fail at times) to please a western audience at this point, so I don't think you need to worry too much.

 

[Blade]

I honestly think anyone who thinks certain "shots" are "too fanservice-y" just has their mind in the gutter.

 

[Starling]

Or are annoyed about constantly having sexualized body parts shoved in their direct line of vision like anime and manga are prone to doing.

 

[hian]

Or are annoyed about constantly having sexualized body parts shoved in their direct line of vision like anime and manga are prone to doing.

I can appreciate the sentiment as I'm the sane way when it comes to drawn out and cringy combat scenes - but given that there are people who enjoy making that kind of stuff, and people who enjoy engaging with it, what can you do?
No individual stabdard can be the universal aim in terms of target audience profile for a product and as such we all have to give some and take some.
I have to live with the new action trend in RPGs and some have to live with a camera hovering over the occasional breast =p

 

[Starling]

There're plenty of games and plot that make that the main appeal. There's no need to throw it into stuff where that's not supposed to be what people play/watch it for. The thing is, there are tasteful ways to have a character show skin or have big breasts while allowing the character to be much more than that. For example, Tifa having large breasts is perfectly fine, but constantly panning to them and gratuitous jiggle physics wouldn't be. Think of it this way. When the camera pans on breasts, it's like they're going "look, boobs! You like boobs right? Stare at them now!" instead of leaving it up to the viewer to stare or not. It can be downright obnoxious.

 

[Lex]

You all seem to have faith in Nomura as a director (compared to me anyway), so I will have faith in my fellow TLS'rs faith (is by-proxy faith a thing? XD).

I know I've seemed negative - when it comes to Nomura in some ways I really am, but I'm not one of the people who places the errors of SE directly on him - I believe Wada and people we've maybe never even heard of are to blame for poor decision making, but it's really impossible to tell with a company like SE as - as discussed - it's very uncommon for a Japanese company's employees to be openly negative.

I suppose all that really matters is that some of the important people from the OG are on board, maybe I was simply attributing too much importance in the game's Director role. It's just things Nomura himself has said in the past that put me on edge if he's going to get the "final say" so to speak, but if there are genuinely people there to put a stop to it I guess there's not too much to worry about.

Or I suppose there's a lot to worry about, but worrying about it is pointless because what power do we have to change it? XD

 

[hian]

@Starling :The thing is that in a product the audience are not the arbitors of what the point of the game is.
Cloud jumping on a dolphin has nothing to do with "the point of the game either" from most perspectives - it's mindless comic relief to only add to the visceral entertainment factor of the game, and I'd pose to you the perspective that "pointless" visceral entertainment factors exist aplenty in FF games, and indeed games in general, and they exist only to up the general entertainment value of the product in question in as many ways as possible for as many people as possible.


Now, some factors of visceral ebtertainment will also bother people, but I'd also suggest, especially as far as Japan is concerned, that fan-service will always drive more people to the IP than drive them away.
That's because an underlying expectation of the escapist nature of Japanese fantasy is that it serves just as much as a tool for simple emotional gratification as anything else it might also do.

 

[Pixel]

I just don't want to look back at it in 10 years and see it as a relic of the past. Look at how Megan Fox is shown on screen in Transformers and TMNT. That is fan service, and it is eye roll worthy, because it is treated as just that, fan service. Sure, there are going to be shots of tifa, but as long as they aren't stupid with it, it'll be fine.

 

[Starling]

The difference between gratuitous action and gratuitous boob shots etc is that with the latter, you have to deal with issues of representation, objectification and hindering character development of characters who were given particular traits and features while the other characters are made more dynamic, given more important roles or simply aren't treated like they exist solely for sexual appeal. Depending on the context of the scenes, the frames used to showcase a character's cleavage could've been used to show things like meaningful actions, facial expressions and so on.

Yes, there's will always be some form of content meant to please the fans but that can take more constructive and useful forms such as unintrusive continuity nods, clever references and we'll executed real world parallels that show just how much research went into everything. When the story takes a backseat to shallowly catering to things like sex appeal that serve no purpose to the story and take away time and resources that could've been used on something more meaningful, it leaves the end result hollow and cheap or at the very least of lesser quality than it could've been.

 

[Lulcielid]

This is starting to feel like classic feminism complain "Hey! Boobs on the screen, riot time!", regarless of said appearence of boobs within the context was or was not for sex appeal.

 

[Unit-01]

I find it deplorable that gamer feminist need to ruin a game most of them won't ever end up playing. Like what the hell is there problem, just because they don't like a game for whatever reason doesn't mean they should go ruin it for everyone else.

 

[hian]

The difference between gratuitous action and gratuitous boob shots etc is that with the latter, you have to deal with issues of representation, objectification and hindering character development of characters who were given particular traits and features while the other characters are made more dynamic, given more important roles or simply aren't treated like they exist solely for sexual appeal.

Well, I don't think this is worth the discussion so I'm not going go into the whys and hows, but I'll give the brief outline of my own stance :

1.) I don't buy "objectification" as a concept except in instances where actual human beings are actually and tangibly being treated as objects - and even in those cases I distinguish between cases where people are actually being hurt by that treatment and where they are not.

2.) I only see representation as nominally important when dealing with non-fiction, or fiction specifically meant to primarily mimic reality, and

3.) I think there is a distinction to be made between a character's sexual portrayal actually being a detriment to the character, and members of the audience thinking this is the case because once sex is introduced they become unable to appreciate the character's other aspects because they are narrowing their entire experience of the character down to the sex because they have a problem with that specifically -
and with that being said - in my personal experience it's more often the latter than the former.

I don't think there is any argument we could have that would make us see eye to eye on these points though, but now you know where I stand at least, and why I don't accept your distinction in this case.

As far as I am concerned, there is no real difference between the personal emotional dislike of certain sexual portrayals, and between personal emotional dislikes of anything else in art an media.
It's literally to me, the exact same thing as when a person tells me there's something wrong with media that has same-sex couples kissing in it, or whether they don't like violence in media, or whether they don't like kids-shows blablabla...

Depending on the context of the scenes, the frames used to showcase a character's cleavage could've been used to show things like meaningful actions, facial expressions and so on.

Yes, there's will always be some form of content meant to please the fans but that can take more constructive and useful forms such as unintrusive continuity nods, clever references and we'll executed real world parallels that show just how much research went into everything. When the story takes a backseat to shallowly catering to things like sex appeal that serve no purpose to the story and take away time and resources that could've been used on something more meaningful, it leaves the end result hollow and cheap or at the very least of lesser quality than it could've been.

This betrays, whether you're aware of it or not, a perspective of a uniform and universal standard for the purpose of art and media, and I can't get behind that.

Not all art and media exists to be meaningful, and quality is only a qualifier that is meaningfully applied once you have an idea what the purpose of a specific works is to begin with.

If I create a work of fiction that is specifically designed to function as escapism to single, lonely and horny boys in their late to mid teens - then the quality and meaning of that is directly correlated to the sexy aspects of what I am making. For such a product, it would be more damaging to spend resources on long monologues.

Just saying.

Now, I do get your point. And I'm not trying to make the argument that FFVII is such a thing, or would even benefit from being framed towards audiences like that.

I'm simply saying that art and media specifically has a wide spectrum of application - one of which includes sexual gratification, and I think that trying to arrest certain products for also having elements of sexual pandering among other things seems like a generally pointless exercise to engage in.

But, if you think it has a real and tangible damaging effect on society - sure. If I thought that, I'd be completely on board too.
As I said though - I don't buy those arguments.

Notice :
You guys going on about feminists on the other hand - give it a rest please.
One thing is disagreeing, but blanket statements like that do nothing but antagonize and instigate trouble.

 

[Tennyo]

Pixel what did you do?

This is starting to feel like classic feminism complain "Hey! Boobs on the screen, riot time!", regarless of said appearence of boobs within the context was or was not for sex appeal.

Except this isn't what it is. Women have boobs IRL. We're not going to riot just because women in the games have boobs. Context really IS key. How things are treated really is key.

I find it deplorable that gamer feminist need to ruin a game most of them won't ever end up playing. Like what the hell is there problem, just because they don't like a game for whatever reason doesn't mean they should go ruin it for everyone else.

Except we are going to play it. Why do you think we are here on this forum?

I also don't see how this is ruining the game. Having a little more class will not alter the gameplay or story. But it may make it much more enjoyable for some.

Sorry this is getting off the thread topic but blanket statements like these are annoying. Have you ever even tried trying to see things from anyone else's point of view other than your own?

And yes, I get it, this is what has been the norm for years. I actually used to make the same arguments myself at one point in time. But the older I get the more I realize that hey, maybe these things actually can be fairly damaging. Especially when you get the double standard of women being presented this way in so much larger of a scale than men in media and yet also being told that they're attention-seeking whores who should know better when they try to be the same way IRL or even when just cosplaying as these characters at cons. Where as a guy dressed like say Gladio or cosplaying as Gladio won't have to deal with that. [personal theory: could be a hold-over from the stud vs slut double standard where men who sleep with a lot of women are studs who deserve to be praised but women who sleep with a lot of men are sluts who deserve to be shamed]

Also thank you, hian. I respect your level-headed reply.

[/off topic rant]