FFXIII Ultimania Omega info

[Splintered]

I don't think anyone likes Etro.

Etro is the universal laughing stalk of the FFXIII fandom. Right after Toriyama anyway.

 

[Blade]

How can you possibly hate Etro when you've never seen her in-game????

Also some food for thought:

1. Etro "sympathizes" with human suffering (despite the fact it's explicitly stated that Bhunivelze and other gods cannot sense emotion/see the unseen chaos in human hearts). Where did she get this power? She was born with no power at all.

2. She passed "judgment" on Lighting & Co. for "sinning" (taking other human lives during the conflict) even though they were branded L'Cie. This conflicts with the idea that she truly sympathized with them, because if she truly DID sympathize with them, she would've scorched the L'Cie's brands as soon as she learned of Barthandeleus' intentions to open the gate (and considering the fact she's capable of seeing the "entire timeline of events" from Valhalla... again she could've intervened at ANY TIME). Instead they got branded and had to go around fighting for their lives under Bart's thumb.

3. Consider this: the Unseen Chaos that Etro was 'holding back' was all the different timeline instances of the FIRST HUMAN BEING known as Yeul who were constantly being reborn and dying. Why did she keep having them be reborn? Maybe it was part of her power, maybe it was beyond her control (hence it being Chaos).... BUT:

Yeul herself was created "in the image and likeness" of Etro in human form. At the same time it was established that Yeul's many 'souls' were conflicted between "saving/freeing" and "condemning/keeping" Caius close to her. We accept this because each Yeul had a different experience with Caius... but that's not the only possible reason.

Consider that Yeul wasn't the only being inside this Unseen Chaos and that even Etro might have been influenced by the Chaos and was torn between saving and condemning humans. Chaos by nature is a contradiction.

So of course Etro did (or didn't do) what she did, that's one of the results of having access to all points in the timeline.

Does that mean she's justified? She 'chose' to kill herself in order to 'do something'. This is the same 'choice' that Lightning made.

Lightning chose to become Etro's Knight. If she had not chosen that role, she would have a different fate (and so might the rest of the world)... maybe even a different timeline. If Caius understood the 'true nature' of the Unseen Chaos before he unleashed it, maybe he would never have done so... it's another possibility.

Etro, Lightning, and Caius all made choices. So did the Gods. Even Yeul made choices.

It's a common thing in stories about Gods that they 'frequently' make mistakes based on their choices due to character flaws.

Just because a character (or even a God) makes mistakes doesn't mean their choice is truly 'wrong' or 'bad'. When given a choice, it's only the 'wrong choice' after the results occur.

It's like Shakespeare said: "There is no good or evil, but thinking makes it so."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Not saying I hate Etro, but don't like her either, mostly for reasons you mentioned.

Also:

1) It's never confirmed, but either being created in Mwynn's image gave her this power, Mwynn herself passed some chaos out into Mortal Realm at the time of Etro's creation so as fo influence Bhunivelze's creation, or Mwynn gave her that power in the Unseen Realm before disappearing. The second is my guess for reasons I've gone over elsewhere

2) Yeah, half of Etro's actions make no sense, and the whole fal'Cie emotional concept is ill-defined. The fal'Cie clearly express emotions, whether they be sympathy, anger or sadness, but we're told they lack emotions. More than likely, they have the emotions but either don't recognize them for what they are or can't comprehend them. May explain why anything they do based on emotion is done in extremes

3) Never thought about the possibility that Etro herself was torn in purpose, but it's certainly possible, especially if Mwynn did contaminate Bhunivelze's creation of Etro with chaos

 

[Masamune]

According to the small novel in the UO, fal'Cie can disguise themselves as humans.

They just choose not to exploit this little gift and tell the l'Cie their focus becaaaaause...?

 

[Lex]

^Well of course they can. Wasn't Barthandelus a fal'cie?

One of the things that made me sad was how absent of humans Pulse was, but it's also kind of post-apocalyptic which was cool. The thing I didn't like about it was that it made the people of Cocoon right re: it's hell down there, and I wish there had been some people around for Vanille and Fang to chat too. But part of the reason Oerba is so beautiful (aside from the music) is that it's desolate.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I've only played FFXIII and about half of FFXIII-2. Where is all of this mythos about the gods in the games?

 

[Splintered]

I've only played FFXIII and about half of FFXIII-2. Where is all of this mythos about the gods in the games?

I find the mythos of FFXIII really interesting, not just because who doesn't like mythos building, but because it's why I think the sequels are so scattered.

Mythology was obscurely referenced in the first game but only if you worked hard decoding the analects. XIII-2 worked with Etros, and LR finally tells you the entire mythology. But most of us already knew it before XIII-2.

This was released shortly before XIII-2. If you want to tl;dw it, there's basically a hierarchy of godhood at work.
Mwynn and Maker=Bhunibelvze
Then Etros, Lindzei, and Pulse
Then all the fal'cie and humanity, with humanity having the power of free will and fal'cie not.

FFXIII, actually all the games from the Fabula Novas Crystalis share the same mythology, just interrupted differently. In fact, from the way I interrupted how they handled it, it was actually the mythos built first, then handed to different teams (Agito/Type-0 and a Versus/FFXV) and then they built the story from there, allowing creators to put their own spin on it.

I could be wrong but it makes a lot of sense. FXIII-2 had time travel, not because the first game didn't disallow time travel, but because there's nothing in the mythology that didn't allow time travel. It was the mythology, not the OG that was the backbone, it was the predetermine background. So sequels could stray as far as they wanted from the first game.

XIII's OG actually handles very little of the mythology. The meat and potatoes were focused on a small part of the mythology, fal'cie and humans. They mythology was there, but in a very background sort of way: a lot of how things happened and why it happened could be explained by the mythology (Etros saving the people in the end), but very little of that is explained in game.

It wasn't important to understand to understand these things to understand the basic story, which was a sort of post-Iraq war criticism of paranoia/ self determination/ screw fate story. The sequels did away with the first theme, and kept the second and third theme of defying fate and humanity making its own way.

That stuff was all there, but only if you dug deep. I actually like they way they handled it, it didn't bog you down with too much information in an already confusing story, but for those that were interested, if you took the time and energy to search the game, do all the hunting quests, you could read the analects, it told you all sorts of things.

I barely knew there was more than one god in the first playthrough. But by the time I hit gamefaqs, most people not only knew there were three active gods, but I read someone accurately guess there was a fourth god that we knew next to nothing about (and considering how the analects were written, this was difficult to figure out).

Anyway, the games actually tackle different rungs of the mythology. XIII you fought against the fal'cie (Etros and all were present, but they weren't the primary antagonists). XIII-2 has you working with Etros. By the time you hit Lightning Returns you are facing off the entirety of the mythology and Bhunibelze, and because the entire theme is fighting fate, you've got to take on Bhuni and hit the reset button on the mythos and destroying the need for all the gods with the exception of maybe Etros.

It hits a weird split between fans. People who know about the mythology were more interested in seeing the story progress god wise rather than just having a sequel in XIII, and were happy to see when we got more mythology stuff about Etros, creation, and Bhuni. But people who didn't read into the mythology, either by youtube or reading analects were completely lost and annoyed by the sudden shift in change.

It's especially apparent when reading about the creation in the last game. For most of us, we already knew shit about Bhuni and chaos, so it was all rehashing, but at least they were talking about relevant stuff. The people that didn't were fucking confused and had no idea where it was coming from.

Honestly, looking back, they could have done two different things to help subdue the rift. Either make more of the mythology accessible in game in XIII and XIII-2, or stay somewhat outside of the realm of the creation story and focus on things that are more inline with XIII's story.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if the story was just there in the sequels for the developers to play with different mechanics. I thought time travel was fun in XIII-2, but not ambitious enough, and Lightning Returns open world, time management and use of time as a resource was too ambitious for a a one year, total renovation development cycle and Toriyama's terrible directing/already confusing story would allow.

Oh well.

 

[Kuja9001]

I find the mythos of FFXIII really interesting, not just because who doesn't like mythos building, but because it's why I think the sequels are so scattered.

Mythology was obscurely referenced in the first game but only if you worked hard decoding the analects. XIII-2 worked with Etros, and LR finally tells you the entire mythology. But most of us already knew it before XIII-2.

This was released shortly before XIII-2. If you want to tl;dw it, there's basically a hierarchy of godhood at work.
Mwynn and Maker=Bhunibelvze
Then Etros, Lindzei, and Pulse
Then all the fal'cie and humanity, with humanity having the power of free will and fal'cie not.

FFXIII, actually all the games from the Fabula Novas Crystalis share the same mythology, just interrupted differently. In fact, from the way I interrupted how they handled it, it was actually the mythos built first, then handed to different teams (Agito/Type-0 and a Versus/FFXV) and then they built the story from there, allowing creators to put their own spin on it.

I could be wrong but it makes a lot of sense. FXIII-2 had time travel, not because the first game didn't disallow time travel, but because there's nothing in the mythology that didn't allow time travel. It was the mythology, not the OG that was the backbone, it was the predetermine background. So sequels could stray as far as they wanted from the first game.

XIII's OG actually handles very little of the mythology. The meat and potatoes were focused on a small part of the mythology, fal'cie and humans. They mythology was there, but in a very background sort of way: a lot of how things happened and why it happened could be explained by the mythology (Etros saving the people in the end), but very little of that is explained in game.

It wasn't important to understand to understand these things to understand the basic story, which was a sort of post-Iraq war criticism of paranoia/ self determination/ screw fate story. The sequels did away with the first theme, and kept the second and third theme of defying fate and humanity making its own way.

That stuff was all there, but only if you dug deep. I actually like they way they handled it, it didn't bog you down with too much information in an already confusing story, but for those that were interested, if you took the time and energy to search the game, do all the hunting quests, you could read the analects, it told you all sorts of things.

I barely knew there was more than one god in the first playthrough. But by the time I hit gamefaqs, most people not only knew there were three active gods, but I read someone accurately guess there was a fourth god that we knew next to nothing about (and considering how the analects were written, this was difficult to figure out).

Anyway, the games actually tackle different rungs of the mythology. XIII you fought against the fal'cie (Etros and all were present, but they weren't the primary antagonists). XIII-2 has you working with Etros. By the time you hit Lightning Returns you are facing off the entirety of the mythology and Bhunibelze, and because the entire theme is fighting fate, you've got to take on Bhuni and hit the reset button on the mythos and destroying the need for all the gods with the exception of maybe Etros.

It hits a weird split between fans. People who know about the mythology were more interested in seeing the story progress god wise rather than just having a sequel in XIII, and were happy to see when we got more mythology stuff about Etros, creation, and Bhuni. But people who didn't read into the mythology, either by youtube or reading analects were completely lost and annoyed by the sudden shift in change.

It's especially apparent when reading about the creation in the last game. For most of us, we already knew shit about Bhuni and chaos, so it was all rehashing, but at least they were talking about relevant stuff. The people that didn't were fucking confused and had no idea where it was coming from.

Honestly, looking back, they could have done two different things to help subdue the rift. Either make more of the mythology accessible in game in XIII and XIII-2, or stay somewhat outside of the realm of the creation story and focus on things that are more inline with XIII's story.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if the story was just there in the sequels for the developers to play with different mechanics. I thought time travel was fun in XIII-2, but not ambitious enough, and Lightning Returns open world, time management and use of time as a resource was too ambitious for a a one year, total renovation development cycle and Toriyama's terrible directing/already confusing story would allow.

Oh well.

There's no "maker" remember.

Was this in regards to Dysley himself, or in general? I would say it's in general, but... I wished to inquire.

In general like the minor guys.

 

[Splintered]

There's no "maker" remember.

I know but it's an easy way of understanding where Bhuni sits on all of this. Bhuni made the Etros/Pulse/Lindzei, which in turn made humanity, the fal'cie, Cocoon, and cultivate the world. Saying he's essentially the "Maker" isn't too far off.

 

[Blade]

There's no Etros either. lol it's Etro (unless you mean Yeul who was made by Lindzei via Etro's blood?).

The Fal'Cie were looking for their Gods so they wouldn't have to go looking for this thing:

Even if they found it or managed to open it, I don't think they could've done much because of how it works (just the fact that characters like Noel and Serah were able to use it to get around the timeline/in and out of Valhalla is amazing enough, I believe it's somehow tied to the Historia Crux and only those with Chaos in their hearts can use it).

It's ironic that for all Bhunivelze' searching he ended up trapped behind this gate in the end.

 

[Masamune]

^Well of course they can. Wasn't Barthandelus a fal'cie?

Hello Lex,

Barthandelus was the exception, not the rule. If it states that all fal'cie can adopt a human form, then why didn't Anima instead of giving the party some hazy dream of Ragnarok? Why didn't any of the fal'cie whose underlying plans went unfulfilled because their l'cie weren't given clear instructions?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's ironic that for all Bhunivelze' searching he ended up trapped behind this gate in the end.

The greatest irony is that he spent all that effort on finding the Unseen Realm to destroy Mwynn when the chaos had already done it eons before.

 

[Lex]

Sharing my experience with the XIII trilogy time (re: mythology)

I'm always interested in the mythology of a FF game. The first time I played through XIII, I was super confused about everything like I usually am with FF stories. It takes more than one playthrough for me to get to grips with things in general. I didn't like it very much, but there were moments (arriving on pulse, the ending) that did actually stir an emotional reaction in me. The only bit of mythology I came away with was "the fal'cie and humans were created and bart is trying to summon this god creator thing". And honestly I was so confused by the non-direct dialogue that I thought Orphan was the maker, not just this thing that holds up Cocoon. I knew about Pulse and Lindzei from the analects but I kept wondering where they were or what they looked like. I assumed Pulse was the planet itself (like a massive living fal'cie) and lindzei was similar re: cocoon.

Went into XIII-2 around the time I started actively posting here. It was initially my most active thread and was kind of my way in. I still didn't know anything about Bhuni/Etro etc and didn't really see where it all came from, but I did read the translated prequel shorts so XIII-2 made a bit more sense to me than probably some other people. I didn't like the story in XIII-2 much. It felt too disjointed from XIII and I didn't like the lack of known characters. Also it was marketed like LIGHTNING LIGHTNING LIGHTNING when all we got was a super cool intro and a couple of cutscenes with her. The whole "to be continued" thing that made fans crazy didn't bother me too much but I did roll my eyes in shock and mehness when Serah apparently died. Mythology-wise I assumed Etro was the maker or something and didn't bother much about it.

Then I read everything and all the posts here (mostly by Splintered to be fair) and realised how interesting the mythology was. Understanding the mythology really gave the games more depth and allowed me to understand what was actually going on in the story. That and the Piggyback guides have interviews and stuff and a lot of in-depth story exploration.

So what I wish we'd seen is some sort of physical representation of Etro. I know she was accidentally created in Mwynn's image by Bhuni, and Mwynn is dead so not seeing her didn't bother me, Etro would have been enough.

But even more than that, I would have liked to have seen Pulse and Lindzei instead of them just being summoned as part of a weapon. And the fal'cie were far too sparse in both sequels when you consider the huge role they had in XIII. They really should have been a bigger part of the story in XIII-2 and LR. They might not have free will but I mean Barthandelus proved they at least have individual goals and even personalities or something. They were kind of just ignored.

LR at least tried to finally connect the Mythos to the story - I've mentioned before the conversation between Fang and Lightning about Lindzei and Pulse and I was like "FINALLY" but there were not enough moments like that.

There's just so much more they could have done with it.

 

[Kuja9001]

So does the Ultimania that has the character profiles give an official height for Mr Snow Villiers?

 

[Strangelove]

200cm (6' 6.7")

 

[Kuja9001]

The fact that these books lack detailed Snow info highly annoys me. "Goings to pout at a nearby wall"

 

[Kuja9001]

I got a request. What does the text talk about on Cid's "Cie Corpse" concept page?

Man XIII's Cid has to be my favorite Cid just because of that design alone.

 

[Arianna]

It's hilarious, to me, that all the fal'Cie were doing what they could to divert away from actually doing what they were "supposed" to be doing.

 

[Kuja9001]

It's hilarious, to me, that all the fal'Cie were doing what they could to divert away from actually doing what they were "supposed" to be doing.

Carbuncle was like "Im tired of making food for these dudes. so I'm going to help turn them into fiery food."

 

[Blade]

What I find interesting is that there is no mention of this form when Cid becomes the so-called "Messenger of the Dead" in Lightning Returns.

I mean, it's borderline C'ieth based on the appearance.

 

[Strangelove]

I got a request. What does the text talk about on Cid's "Cie Corpse" concept page?

Man XIII's Cid has to be my favorite Cid just because of that design alone.

Spoiler

Image 1:

[top text]
Cie'th Raines ~ First Form

■ Raines has the crest of Lindzei on the back of his right hand, and his Cie'th transformation started from there.
He has just barely managed to retain human form through his defiant spirit.
■ Fights in a kenpo/martial arts style. (Striking qi into his opponent with his hands and blasting them back, etc.)
A speed attacker like Lightning, and attacks with fiendish combos.
■ From his stomach down it's the same as the former Raines.
The shape of the belt and colour of the outfit, etc. are provisional.

[full body caption]
A crystalline material like Lindzei-type Cie'th

[portrait caption]
Head is also crystal


Image 2:

[top text]
■ Raines has the crest of Lindzei on the back of his right hand, and his Cie'th transformation started from there.
When he loses health, he is unable to control the crest's power and his Cie'th transformation worsens, causing him to grow wings.
■ Fights in a kenpo/martial arts style. (Striking qi into his opponent with his hands and blasting them back, etc.)
A speed attacker like Lightning, and attacks with fiendish combos.
■ The wings are also made from the same substance as Lindzei-type Cie'th, but the bones flap like an angel's (bird's?) wings.

[wing silhouette]
Thickness of the wings

[wing caption]
■ The wings grow out from the spine.

 

[Kuja9001]

So Snow did the exact same thing?

I never knew what the bodies of Cie Corpses were made of.

Second Request

The text interests me.

Spoiler

 

[Strangelove]

Spoiler

Image 1:
[top text]
Walking l'Cie monster

- Attack: close-range attack
- Magic attack
- Mid-attack: has stun effect
- Big attack: undecided

How about Resonance for the big attack?
Damage + confusion or beserk
To give an idea for the visual effects, the Pulse numbering for 0 on the chest lights up
and there's a red blur on the screen
Like blood rushing to the head

Before performing the big attack it readies its left arm
And when it's defending it uses its left arm as a shield

[captions for left design]
Magic circles

[caption for right design]
Pulse crest

[bottom text]
'Holy' affinity
The walking type is a close-range attacker
and attack power of a single hit and its defense are in the higher range.

It is the monster that l'Cie who couldn't fulfil their mission turn into.
They lose the memories and intelligence they had as humans,
and have a zombie-like nature in which they indiscriminately attack any living thing they see except for l'Cie monsters.



Picture 2:
[title]
The path of a l'Cie

[top silhouette]
Human

[centre silhouette]
L'Cie

[bottom left silhouette]
Crystal

[bottom right silhouette]
Cie'th

[left silhouette]
Fal'Cie

[fal'Cie > human arrow]
Chooses as a l'Cie

[fal'Cie > crystal arrow]
In some circumstances, awakes

[l'Cie > crystal arrow]
Completes Focus

[l'Cie > Cie'th arrow]
Brand changes without having completed Focus

[crystal > l'Cie arrow]
Revived with a new Focus

interesting that they didn't have name for cie'th yet and just called them 'l'cie monsters' at that point

 

[Kuja9001]

I honestly can't find or think of anything else that we'd find interesting other than this Adamantioise pic.

Spoiler

I always associated the zombie status with a Cie Corpse/Cie'th. Bummed because they don't tell us what a exactly a Cie'th is/how it's created. I figured it was the crystal that's inside humans going crazy.

Edit- After seeing a "Vampire" type Cie Corpse I still wonder how does a Cie'th change size. Look at Cid, he's near Snow's height and after changing he gains several inches.

 

[Blade]

Okay let's review:

Humans become L'Cie after Fal'Cie brand them (usually with uppermost echelons of the Fal'Cie acting as intermediaries for the branding ceremony).

This brand grows and seems to act almost cancerous to a human L'Cie's body if they don't fulfill their focus.

Assuming they DO fulfill it, they turn to crystal.

If they don't or the Fal'Cie wills otherwise, they turn in to Cie'th.

What isn't explained is what happens to a L'Cie once their 'crystal stasis' period is completed or if they ever stop being a L'Cie and revert to being human again.... we've seen L'Cie brands go dormant (faded out)... but it appears only Etro and Bhunivelze were able to remove L'Cie brands completely.

The question of "what Cie'th are" is just as unknown as what Fal'Cie are made of... since they were created by a "Creator" (that we never actually see, whom was Bhunivelze' creator).

If a Cie'th's existence (in undeath) is related to the Fal'Cie's will... it might be connected to Chaos manifestation.... but that is reaching a bit.

In Snow's case, the reason he became more and more Cie'th-like in LR isn't because of the Chaos he was absorbing... it was because he was struggling to fulfill his Focus.

His focus co-relates to protecting the people around him... and if he loses confidence in himself or thinks he is dying at any point from the Chaos... his brand will grow. He was ready to give up, that's why he became a Cie'th. He was wallowing in despair.

That is also why the reverse was possible through SHEER WILL. Because Lightning reached out to him to remind him he wasn't alone in the fight.

Lastly, it also explains why Cid was able to turn to Crystal despite not fulfilling his own focus.

Will is an extension of the Heart... which is comprised of a piece of Chaos.... does that mean that the Will can be influenced by Chaos? Probably... but that doesn't necessarily mean that it can completely control it.

Just as Gods in this story have power to create humans.... Humans have power to make their own decisions and manifest power from those decisions, which is what Snow and Cid have done, amongst many others.

You could say that the "power of gods" isn't too different from the "decisions of humans", just that there's a vast difference in the amount of Chaos (read: Life Force or Lifestream) being used.