FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH ANNOUNCED

[Makoeyes987]

The more I think about it, the more I start to believe Tifa's lines are from the Northern Crater confrontation where Cloud's ego starts to crumble.

How fucked up would it be if before Cloud's identity collapses, Sephiroth toys with Cloud and makes him dig his heels into his false identity? Making Cloud believe everyone else is wrong at first, before then twisting the knife with the truth that everything he believes is an illusion. So Tifa really gets confused and has to try to snap Cloud out of it with truth but it ultimately shatters his self conception entirely. Because she doesn't have an answer for where he was or who he is....

Like. That would be the most sadistic shit imaginable.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah we're definitely going to the Northern Crater. This is THE POINT to end part 2, definitely, so it could very well be Tifa's answer to Cloud at a moment he's doubting even her. On the other hand, him doubting her doesn't really fit the OG either, so I don't know lol. It could however be that line that makes him realise how wrong he is, because indeed, he trusts her above everyone else (only your opinion counts). Ohhh I'm digging this lol.

 

[LNK]

I still think we end after shiskabob, in the forgotten city

 

[Theozilla]

Either something in the chain of events of Rebirth's story or it could even be memory alteration thanks to the Zack surviving his last stand thanks to the fight in the Singularity.

Either way, yes. The Jenova cells are clearly accommodating and tightening Cloud's false persona so it functions better.

It kinda blows my mind I didn't pick up the significance of Cloud's recollection of Hojo, being experimented on and Cloud's "that's the Shinra I know" line in chapter 13. Cloud never remembered that, it was a gaping hole in his memories during the OG.

I think the fact Cloud's brain censored Zack's name and any references to him dulled my awareness of it.

Keep in mind Cloud might not be consciously remembering Zack though. The trailer dialogue could easily be dialogue from a dream or subconscious conversation Cloud is having with himself, or from one of his identity freak moments. If it is something like those aforementioned contexts it isn't necessarily as indicative of a major change of Cloud's mindset as you might think.

 

[Roger]

Keep in mind Cloud might not be consciously remembering Zack though. The trailer dialogue could easily be dialogue from a dream or subconscious conversation Cloud is having with himself, or from one of his identity freak moments. If it is something like those aforementioned contexts it isn't necessarily as indicative of a major change of Cloud's mindset as you might think.

It's not like Cloud didn't remember these internal conversations he had in Remake or FFVII, him mentioning Zack to himself, even if it's not out loud is pretty huge. Unless they cut Gongaga and Aerith doesn't see need to mention Zack ever again, it'd be pretty relevant to his mindset.

 

[Theozilla]

It's not like Cloud didn't remember these internal conversations he had in Remake or FFVII, him mentioning Zack to himself, even if it's not out loud is pretty huge. Unless they cut Gongaga and Aerith doesn't see need to mention Zack ever again, it'd be pretty relevant to his mindset.

Eh, even if he remembers parts of his internal conversations/dreams, I personally wouldn't describe Cloud as remembering/comprehending the information conveyed in them in either the Remake or OG, except on maybe a subconscious level (like the internal true Cloud still remembers him and Tifa falling and getting injured on Mt. Nibel as kids, but conscious/present day Cloud definitely doesn't know what his subconscious is talking about). Especially considering in the Remake Cloud's mental state literally blocks out/goes on the fritz when people mention stuff relating to his real past, like Aerith saying Zack's name in the playground, the infantry-man who knew Cloud and Kunsel, Hojo's "you weren't in Soldier..." dialogue, etc.

 

[waw]

There's two Clouds. We don't know which one is saying the line or where. It could be Dream Cloud, Real Cloud, Second Cloud... we don't know. Something that is popping out to me from your discussion though:
What would our Cloud do if he met surviving Zack? With the Buster Sword, who is brain is telling him is an imposter. Isn't real, can't be real because if he is, Cloud can't be real. Would they fight? Will that break Cloud? I'm returned once more to wondering if Zack will be the main hero in Part III and Cloud the villain/host of Sephiroth/bad guy.

 

[Rose_of_Night]

I just never thought of it that way. I'd feel like I was starting in the middle of a story. But, I realize now, it's not actually necessity to do that. It only is, if you want to start from the very beginning.

I got into FFVII after catching the original cut of Advent Children on tv, so I get what Roger is saying, lmao

 

[Tetsujin]

I have nothing to add to the current discussion but just wanna appreciate that I was looking forward to the presentation all week long giddy like a child and then they delivered everything I wanted and more. Square Enix did not mess this one up.

ngl the merch ads in the first half had me worried there for a hot minute though

 

[Theozilla]

The biggest surprise for me was the total number of installments being finally revealed/confirmed. I think I may actually value that information as much or possibly even more than the trailer and release window for Rebirth.
But getting both pieces of that information makes it so much each easier to set up and shape expectations for how long the Remake project will take (like Part 3 is very likely coming out in 2027 then, with 2028 being the latest).

 

[Fiz]

I have nothing to add to the current discussion but just wanna appreciate that I was looking forward to the presentation all week long giddy like a child and then they delivered everything I wanted and more. Square Enix did not mess this one up.

ngl the merch ads in the first half had me worried there for a hot minute though

Same here, it was going on for quite a bit with First Soldier, talking and Merch. I started thinking, we aren't getting it, are we? Me thinks the videos pacing was intentional. Lol

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm returned once more to wondering if Zack will be the main hero in Part III and Cloud the villain/host of Sephiroth/bad guy.

Really don't think that'll happen. Sephiroth is the antagonist and Cloud is the story's hero, his adversity isn't meant to crush him and grind him out.

The trailer dialogue could easily be dialogue from a dream or subconscious conversation Cloud is having with himself, or from one of his identity freak moments. If it is something like those aforementioned contexts it isn't necessarily as indicative of a major change of Cloud's mindset as you might think.

It could be that, but I also feel that's too.... safe to assume?

I think the writers do want to recontextualize Cloud's mental issues here in a radical, transformative way. The same theme, but different execution. It could be like that, but it seems very much... In line with how Kitase expressed making "good/happy surprises" with the source material while staying true to it.

There was also an interview with Nojima (I think), and I can't fully remember it... It talked about Cloud just not hearing Zack's name. It was either in the Ultimania Plus or part of the documentary regarding how he re-wrote the OG script... And it talked about Cloud's inadequacy and how he was pretending, and.... it was a very unique way he described it. But I can't remember where it was... but the way it stated it, made Cloud sound like a more active participant in his delusion and people found that kinda weird at the time. I feel like that has a lot of meaning now given what we heard in the trailer.

 

[Theozilla]

It could be that, but I also feel that's too.... safe to assume?

I think the writers do want to recontextualize Cloud's mental issues here in a radical, transformative way. The same theme, but different execution. It could be like that, but it seems very much... In line with how Kitase expressed making "good/happy surprises" with the source material while staying true to it.

There was also an interview with Nojima (I think), and I can't fully remember it... It talked about Cloud just not hearing Zack's name. It was either in the Ultimania Plus or part of the documentary regarding how he re-wrote the OG script... And it talked about Cloud's inadequacy and how he was pretending, and.... it was a very unique way he described it. But I can't remember where it was... but the way it stated it, made Cloud sound like a more active participant in his delusion and people found that kinda weird at the time. I feel like that has a lot of meaning now given what we heard in the trailer.

Sure it’s possible it could go that route, but with the information we have right now I personally don’t think it is as likely.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I found the Toriyama quote. It was from the Ultimania Plus.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415699146900533252

"Protecting his false memories."

"A name he doesn't want to recognize or hear."

That screams the Jenova cells are actively... modifying and adjusting Cloud's delusion, sinking him deeper and deeper into the role he's built for himself. So to go from that, to acknowledging Zack's presence mentally while still holding onto the delusion and somehow not knowing where he is means he has to be incorporating a "Zack" into his false memories now. Just fabricating an unreal past. That's pretty wild.

 

[Theozilla]

But Cloud incorporating Zack into his false memories/persona has been a thing since the OG, that’s not particularly new?

Also that quote is from Toriyama not Nojima.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, I got the author mixed up

Well it's the quantity and prevalence of just how much Zack is being incorporated here. Before, Zack was an anchor for Cloud's ego to construct the idealized representation of a SOLDIER 1-C and who's frame of reference regarding the Nibelheim Incident was used to explain his presence there. Cloud had zero idea what happened afterwards. It was just a hole in his memories. No memory of experimentation, no memory of rescue, etc.

In the Remake the Zack personification seems to be increasing and snowballing. Now not only is Cloud incorporating specific details of Zack's frame of reference and presence within the Nibelheim Incident, he's using his memories and experiences to construct a timeline of events post-escape. Instead of just gaping holes that can't be explained, they're filled with what Zack did. It's how he's able to recollect being experimented on, knowing what Hojo is like, etc etc.

The Jenova cells are actively protecting Cloud's false memory in a very effective way. Instead of just outright rejecting Zack, he's now been made into something else. He's being remembered now, but in the completely wrong and opposite way.

Never thought it was possible for Cloud to remember Zack and still cling to his Jenova cell inspired delusion but here the writers are, showing that's entirely possible.

 

[Odysseus]

Cloud didn't know who Zack was at all in the North Crater originally, and now he's even acknowledging him as someone who was on the mission with him and Sephiroth. Huge difference imo.

 

[Theozilla]

That’s with the presumption Cloud is consciously remembering Zack though, it still is very possible (and personally I think the more likely scenario) Cloud remembering Zack (and that trailer dialogue/line) is still only subconscious stuff.

 

[Makoeyes987]

On another note, does anyone think that we may have been given a stealth teaser of how the memorable cutscene of Sephiroth walking into the flames will look in FFVII Rebirth, via the Ever Crisis trailer?

Because won't Ever Crisis use some of the assets, designs and scenes from the Remake that align with their depiction of events?

That scene of Nibelheim burning and Sephiroth standing in the flames looked 100% from the Remake, the only difference being the awesome cut-in of Sephiroth's younger self.

I really hope it looks as good as that, or better

 

[Fiz]

Really don't think that'll happen. Sephiroth is the antagonist and Cloud is the story's hero, his adversity isn't meant to crush him and grind him out.

The end of part 1 foreshadowed him stepping onto the dark side. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if he does become an antagonist, at least for a while.

I think the writers do want to recontextualize Cloud's mental issues here in a radical, transformative way. The same theme, but different execution. It could be like that, but it seems very much... In line with how Kitase expressed making "good/happy surprises" with the source material while staying true to it.

There was also an interview with Nojima (I think), and I can't fully remember it... It talked about Cloud just not hearing Zack's name. It was either in the Ultimania Plus or part of the documentary regarding how he re-wrote the OG script... And it talked about Cloud's inadequacy and how he was pretending, and.... it was a very unique way he described it. But I can't remember where it was... but the way it stated it, made Cloud sound like a more active participant in his delusion and people found that kinda weird at the time. I feel like that has a lot of meaning now given what we heard in the trailer.

I think it could be more impactful that way, and can get rid of the whole silent Tifa thing. The protagonist witholding information trope is a bug bear of mine and would, if they're having confrontations about their memories help get rid of that. lol

 

[Makoeyes987]

The end of part 1 foreshadowed him stepping onto the dark side. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if he does become an antagonist, at least for a while.

Wait, wha? How did the ending foreshadow Cloud stepping onto the dark side?

 

[looneymoon]

ngl the trailery tagline where it reads "WHATS SEPHIORTH'S ENDGAME" struck me as super obnoxious but I am an easily displeased old grump

 

[Fiz]

Wait, wha? How did the ending foreshadow Cloud stepping onto the dark side?

Sephiroth offering his hand to Cloud, and asking him to join him in defying destiny together. Also, the whole "embrace me, don't deny me" thing. That's classic cinematic foreshadowing. Doesn't mean it'll happen mind, but it wouldn't surprise me, and if it did then I don't think it would be permanent. More of a save Cloud from himself kinda thing.

 

[Fiz]

Also, because it came to me. If it turns out Aerith is evil at the end of remake or something like that, then I called it in back 1997. I named her "Satan" because I thought it was funny, and thought she was weird, when I was kid. So, I'll claim this theory now.

 

[LNK]

That’s with the presumption Cloud is consciously remembering Zack though, it still is very possible (and personally I think the more likely scenario) Cloud remembering Zack (and that trailer dialogue/line) is still only subconscious stuff.

I'm with you on this. I don't think Cloud is a good source for knowledge on. He's still in a state of delusion. Imo