Final Fantasy VII: The First Soldier

[Obsidian Fire]

Mako's post is god-tier.

JP media will always care more about themes, emotional reactions, characterization and Rule of Cool/Awesome *first*. Exactly *why* all that works in the world of the story comes second.

There are very few JP works I can think of where the reason final climax is "won" is because someone managed to leverage the world-building information in the right direction. Instead, it's almost always because of someone embodying the main emotional thematic point of the series in question. This is why you end up with the Power of Friendship, the Power of Love, the Power of Family, and other such major themes being the "power source" that wins fights across JP media. How physically powerful (or intellegint) characters are doesn't matter as much compared to "have they figured out the emotional theme of this work and embodied it" does. How much they manage to embody it often is directly proportional to the odds of them winning a particular fight.

Final Fantasy VII is no different. The final fight is won not because Cloud and everyone else is physically stronger than Sephrioth, but because Cloud has finally accepted who he *really* is and can excise Sephrioth from his mind. For all of the world-building in Final Fantasy VII, it still comes down to Cloud dealing with his own sense of self-worth and accepting himself for who he is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess what I’m getting at is it’s easy to underestimate how detached we are from Japanese culture even though it’s so popular in the West. So I’m always curious to know how Japanese fans respond to stuff like the Compilation, the story changes in Remake, BR in First Soldier, stuff like that. Are the kinds of complaints we see about this stuff as common among Japanese audiences as well?

They simply don't care

They expect changes because such revisits and retellings do it all the time. Remakes and retellings rarely get everything the same even when they try to, and they are used to expansive adaptive works, crossovers, and additional plot elements since that's kinda what a majority of their popular media are.

For instance, the biggest complaint about the Compilation and made its rounds through Japan, all the way up to its writers wasn't the fact "OMG GENESIS WAS THERE WITH SEPHIROTH WHEN HE WENT INSANE IN NIBELHEIM," it was the fact that Sephiroth jumped into the Mako Pit versus being thrown in by Cloud. That was the biggest gripe they had. Technology changing and expanding? Additional elite SOLDIERs hidden from view that are based on colors and ridiculously over-the-top? They eat that up.

Of course, I think there are certain core tenets that are sacred to Japanese fans. They're flexible but not completely. For instance FFX's ~Will~ audio drama that takes place 1 year after FFX-2 was extensively hated because they broke one of the key pillars of FFX, and that was Yuna and Tidus. Sin coming back wasn't a big deal, it was what they did between Tidus and Yuna's relationship that drew ire. In the end, these writers and audiences aren't so much sticklers for "canon" as they are sticklers for themes, moments and feelings. The visual nature of storytelling and emotional combination of elements and characters is what they prioritize.

 

[Ite]

You’re misremembering. The jump was Last Order, not Crisis Core. Also we were just as pissed about that in the west

 

[Makoeyes987]

You’re misremembering. The jump was Last Order, not Crisis Core. Also we were just as pissed about that in the west

I miswrote that, thank you. My bad

Technically, it was first shown in Before Crisis, and most players didn't care because it was a cell phone game that took loads of liberties with FFVII in general. It's a meet-and-greet of every FFVII character and a player's OC.

However, when Last Order did it again, and it seemed like they really were digging into that version of the event? People got pissed.

That was one of the major concerns that the writers kept in mind for Crisis Core's depiction for that event.

 

[Theozilla]

The differences in media sensibilities between Japan and (the English speaking) West, also has lot to do with the demands/expectations of industry, particularly manga and other written media. The anthology magazine serial in that respect, resembles many pulp serials the U.S./U.K. had during the first half of the 20th century, where a creator is incentivized more to produce a weekly/monthly product rather than being concerned with an overall plotted plan. Like Go Nagai has repeatedly discussed how many of his plot developments in his famous series like Devilman or Mazinger were written by the seat of his pants. Analyzing the economic pressures/factors behind the production of media often reveals just as much, if not more, understanding about media than any subjective different tastes. Like how Kamen Rider adding a second Rider had more to do with the original actor being injured during production, so the productions solution was to add a new Rider who just so happened to have the same experiences that gave him Kamen Rider powers. All of this interdependently influences different mediums of media (for any country).

However, it is also important not to over stress the cultural differences to the point of cultural essentialism, being from a different culture doesn't exclude one from critiquing the media from a different culture, while still understanding the context of cultural differences and sensibilities. And there will always be exceptions to every trend.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The more familiar you are with Japanese history/mythology, the more obvious it becomes how much of their media is references to older works, older characters, and older story arcs. There is a wealth of copyright-free material in Japanese literature and it is used *liberally* throughout popular media.

The closest I can get to in Western Media is how many different versions we now have of oh... Greek/Roman/Norse Gods and how many versions of various superheroes we have. And even that does get it *quite* right because those concepts still have a general "canon" that everyone knows.

It would be like... if you have an original work in it's own world and for some reason a character that is a whole-sale reference to Superman was included with a slightly tweaked background for the world... and no one in-universe thinks it's that weird. Or if your weapon of legend was a variant of Thor's Hammer... that was *called* Thor's Hammer in-universe for no reason.

Or like how Sephrioth and Cloud are very obvious reskins of Griffith and Guts from Berserk. Cloud might as well be walking around with Guts' favorite sword. Sephrioth might as well have copy/pasted Griffith's reasoning for wanting to be a god. And Cloud's hatred of Sephrioth is as intense as Guts' hatred of Griffith. The biggest tweak between Sephrioth and Cloud's relationship and Griffith and Gut's relationship is that Sephrioth and Cloud manage have a *worse* relationship. At least Griffifth can't physically control Guts even if there world is way worse off as a whole than the FFVII world...

And even Griffith and Guts' general character concepts go further back to stuff like Akira and Satan from Devilman...

 

[Theozilla]

The more familiar you are with Japanese history/mythology, the more obvious it becomes how much of their media is references to older works, older characters, and older story arcs. There is a wealth of copyright-free material in Japanese literature and it is used *liberally* throughout popular media.

The closest I can get to in Western Media is how many different versions we now have of oh... Greek/Roman/Norse Gods and how many versions of various superheroes we have. And even that does get it *quite* right because those concepts still have a general "canon" that everyone knows.

It would be like... if you have an original work in it's own world and for some reason a character that is a whole-sale reference to Superman was included with a slightly tweaked background for the world... and no one in-universe thinks it's that weird. Or if your weapon of legend was a variant of Thor's Hammer... that was *called* Thor's Hammer in-universe for no reason.

Or like how Sephrioth and Cloud are very obvious reskins of Griffith and Guts from Berserk. Cloud might as well be walking around with Guts' favorite sword. Sephrioth might as well have copy/pasted Griffith's reasoning for wanting to be a god. And Cloud's hatred of Sephrioth is as intense as Guts' hatred of Griffith. The biggest tweak between Sephrioth and Cloud's relationship and Griffith and Gut's relationship is that Sephrioth and Cloud manage have a *worse* relationship. At least Griffifth can't physically control Guts even if there world is way worse off as a whole than the FFVII world...

And even Griffith and Guts' general character concepts go further back to stuff like Akira and Satan from Devilman...

You're basically just describing character archetypes, that isn't unique to Japan. Every culture has them, including the West. The main difference is that the U.S.A.'s copyright laws has prevented many things from entering the public domain, so repeated archetypes generally have to appear to be more distinct from each other or else they risk being sued (that's what happened to Captain Marvel/Shazam after it started to outsell Superman in the Golden Age of superhero comics).

 

[looneymoon]

I mean, the whole themes being the magic/power isn't unique to Japanese storytelling either.

Dorothy didn't return to Oz because of some slippers.

...I'm finding this line of conversation very unconvincing as to why The Compilation has some really shit-tier writing.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ Blue and Obsidian - my disappointment or otherwise is neither here nor there. I meant that regardless of whether FFVII was great by accident or design, its status as a masterpiece, albeit perhaps a flawed one, remains. It's not less of a masterpiece because it happened by accident. And I think that when we look at their subsequent output, we can see more and more that it was an accident. A happy accident; serendipitous.

I lack your encyclopaedic knowledge of Japanese pop culture, so I'll take your word for it. I'm not Japanese and will never develop a fully Japanese sensibility, no matter how hard I try. I'm a product of my own culture. So I can't have an opinion on whether, from a Japanese POV, FFVIIRemake or First SOLDIER etc... are well-crafted artefacts that succeed in the goal they set themselves.

However, whether the end goal is a rational (western) narrative or an emotionally truthful (Japanese) narrative, surely the audience expects the product to be thoughtfully and skillfully crafted. First SOLDIER is hardly a suitable object for this discussion, since it's pretty clearly just a fun bit of fluff designed to capitalise on the FFVIIR bandwagon and earn SE some profit - which is fine, they're a business, they need profit. Maybe, for what it is, it IS thoughtfully and skilfully crafted; I don't know, not having played it.

All I can say is, I've read a few manga and a fair bit of serious Japanese literature, and all of them strove to have rational, coherent plots and consistency in their worlds and their characterisations - even Murakami, who is a sort of magic realist. None of them, not even Natsume Soseki's "I am a Cat" (Japan's Tristram Shandy) struck me as being hugely different from western literature in that regard.

 

[Theozilla]

Looking back on this thread, I am kinda amused how in depth the conversation has lead to concerning the subject matter. This all started from different reactions to Nomura and the devs saying their going to add lore to “explain” why Remake assets are being reused for their mobile game that takes place in the past. And some people found that stupid/unnecessary to even address (or even made worse by attempting to address it), while other people were fine with or even liked that some small bit of what is a game development time/cost saving tactic would get its own lore too.

 

[cold_spirit]

Jokes aside, it's been interesting to see how differently everyone approaches FFVII.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I mean, the whole themes being the magic/power isn't unique to Japanese storytelling either.

Dorothy didn't return to Oz because of some slippers.

...I'm finding this line of conversation very unconvincing as to why The Compilation has some really shit-tier writing.

I think the point here is that the idea of what makes for “shit-tier writing” will likely differ across different audiences so at some point expecting a Japanese company to live up to our own sensibilities might be fruitless if their core audience doesn’t feel the same for the most part, which is not to say that anybody outside of that audience isn’t entitled to their own opinion, but that conversations about what’s “good” and “bad” hardly ever account for this aspect adequately

It's not less of a masterpiece because it happened by accident. And I think that when we look at their subsequent output, we can see more and more that it was an accident. A happy accident; serendipitous.

I’m actually of the school of thought that it’s probably better that it happened accidentally, just feels more genuine and authentic to me than a lot of stuff that I feel tries too hard to be poignant

First SOLDIER is hardly a suitable object for this discussion, since it's pretty clearly just a fun bit of fluff designed to capitalise on the FFVIIR bandwagon and earn SE some profit - which is fine, they're a business, they need profit. Maybe, for what it is, it IS thoughtfully and skilfully crafted; I don't know, not having played it.

Oh, I’m with you there, First Soldier is hardly the first example I’d use to make a case for this. It’s just knowing how huge mobile gaming is in Japan, it would not surprise me if there weren’t as many people in that audience who had the initial reaction that many of us had (including me, by the way) of “oh *great*, it’s mobile—OH, *GREAT* IT’S BR...” And so with something like them trying to explain how the BR works in-universe, my attitude is pretty much “well, I probably won’t be playing it much and it probably won’t affect the whole franchise much anyways so whatever”.

We might be having a different conversation if the devs actually did try to address the specific inconsistencies like “well, you see, the reason the BR simulator is able to predict stuff like Seventh Heaven and Aerith’s church is because with the interference of the Whispers, which we’ll be expanding upon in the next part of the remake, yada yada yada yada...”

But if that aspect doesn’t really get much focus in the grander scheme of things, my mind sort of just ignores it in the same way that I pay little mind to stuff like the weird geography of the OG’s map or other absurd elements of the plot. Basically, if they don’t make a big deal of it, neither do I. I guess we’ll see what the future holds, though.

 

[Shademp]

Anecdotal but relevant: I follow this Japanese Twitter account that take requests from FF7 fans on what to include- and not include in Remake, then post those requests on Twitter. The account links to the Japanese forum 2ch and all posts are in Japanese.

ff7リメイク・ファンの要望まとめ
@ff7remakeyoubo
FF7リメイクに対する要望・希望・意見etc　ネット掲示板にあったものを引用して、どんどん紹介しています！　ここに要望を掲載希望の方は　#FF7リメイクに望むこと　というハッシュタグでツイート又はFF7リメイクスレ（下記URL）に【要望ツイッターに掲載希望！】と記載して書き込んで下さい♪
https://kohada.open2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ff/1437384437/l50

ff7 remake fan's request summary
@ff7remakeyoubo
I'm quoting the requests, wishes, opinions, etc. on the internet forums and introducing them here!　If you'd like to post your requests here, please tweet with the hashtag #FF7remake wishes or write in the FF7 remake thread (URL below) with the words "I'd like to post my requests on Twitter! or write in the FF7 Remake thread (URL below) with "I want to post my request on Twitter!

One of the most common requests posted time and time again, at least several times a year, on this Twitter account is "Please stop including Compilation stuff in FF7R".

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392418993969922048

[Please don't include CCFF7 or DC post-apocalyptic settings in the FF7 remake

Can you please stop adding the compilations and other FF7 derivatives to the canonical history of FF7?
The setting and character personalities are completely different, the content and honestly the setting are contradictory, and it just looks like a secondary work.
#FF7 Remake Request

I of course have no idea if these requests are all from the same person on a crusade or if it's a common opinion voiced by several, though that might get cleared up if I ever read the 2ch thread.

Regardless of scale, I think it's safe to say that strong anti-Compilation sentiments do exist in the Japanese community.

 

[Strangelove]

i remember hearing something about the differences between japanese storytelling and more orthodox western storytelling but i can't recall it clearly now. i think there something about how 'meandering' to build mood wasn't seen as a detriment in the way it would in a western framework of strict 3-act structure where everything needs to be moving the plot along? something about not necessarily having the kind of wookiepedia mentality towards 'canon'? idk i might be imagining this

i wonder if there's a book to read about it

it's a shame i can't read books anymore and instead just watch this same lady gaga video over and over for the past hour

 

[looneymoon]

I took a peruse through Japanese twitter and saw about as many complaints as on English twitter. There seems to be this idea that Japanese audiences are like, too polite or something to voice angry opinions online. Whenever I see stuff in with that general sentiment, I think about how it's describing the same audience that made the hate mail/death threat shots in End of Evangelion (before twitter was a thing, even).

Angry nerds are angry nerds anywhere else.

 

[Strangelove]

anonymous nerds are going to be awful no matter where you go

For instance, the biggest complaint about the Compilation and made its rounds through Japan, all the way up to its writers wasn't the fact "OMG GENESIS WAS THERE WITH SEPHIROTH WHEN HE WENT INSANE IN NIBELHEIM," it was the fact that Sephiroth jumped into the Mako Pit versus being thrown in by Cloud. That was the biggest gripe they had. Technology changing and expanding? Additional elite SOLDIERs hidden from view that are based on colors and ridiculously over-the-top? They eat that up.

i would push back against this a little, as complaints about the additions are definitely something i've seen over the years (the tweet shademp posted being an example). the things they added post-original game weren't universally well-received

to echo theozilla's point about not totalising all fans and how they approach media. there's definitely japanese canon pedants, that's how you get books full of specs for mobile suits and pages showing graphs of character's power levels. there might be a bit more leniency in some regards? maybe. idk.

since it intersects with a project i wanted to do anyway, i will not actually look for resources. i will solve this case once and for all

 

[Roundhouse]

Strangelove:

Dunno if you meant this, but it's interesting and relevant anyway. Taken from an interview with Hayao Miyazaki, conducted by Roger Ebert:

'I told Miyazaki I love the "gratuitous motion" in his films; instead of every movement being dictated by the story, sometimes people will just sit for a moment, or they will sigh, or look in a running stream, or do something extra, not to advance the story but only to give the sense of time and place and who they are.

"We have a word for that in Japanese," he said. "It's called ma. Emptiness. It's there intentionally."

Is that like the "pillow words" that separate phrases in Japanese poetry?

"I don't think it's like the pillow word." He clapped his hands three or four times. "The time in between my clapping is ma. If you just have non-stop action with no breathing space at all, it's just busyness, But if you take a moment, then the tension building in the film can grow into a wider dimension. If you just have constant tension at 80 degrees all the time you just get numb."

Which helps explain why Miyazaki's films are more absorbing and involving than the frantic cheerful action in a lot of American animation. I asked him to explain that a little more.

"The people who make the movies are scared of silence, so they want to paper and plaster it over," he said. "They're worried that the audience will get bored. They might go up and get some popcorn.

But just because it's 80 percent intense all the time doesn't mean the kids are going to bless you with their concentration. What really matters is the underlying emotions--that you never let go of those.'

https://www.rogerebert.com/interviews/hayao-miyazaki-interview

 

[Strangelove]

i am collecting links and keywords to base my research on so i will add that to my list, i hadn't considered interviews with japanese creators by western writers yet so that's another avenue to look into

 

[FFShinra]

Loving this debate.

I also have one thing to add vis a vis the original game and everything in the compilation: Sakaguchi's absence. He didn't do the nittiest and grittiest of the details like the other three, but he had veto power and came up with general directions as the producer. Maybe the compilation would be exactly the same if he had stuck around or maybe the compilation wouldn't even exist, it's hard to know for sure, but I do think there is something to be said for not having him around, and how that may have affected expectations in the compilation vs the original game.

Certainly for me, I simply ignore the compilation outright. It was the original game I fell in love with, and I can take or leave the extra stuff and completely leave whatever continuity snarls that take place because of rule of cool or contradiction. The remake is, so far, an exception to that, even with the changes made, because it is qualitatively better than the rest of the compilation in terms of everything but especially the writing. But time will tell if it remains that way. Thats why even with Tsviets being a thing now with the Yuffie DLC, if it repairs them as concepts and characters and uses the excuses of defeating fate so that they are executed better, then I'm fine with it.

As for the originating topic, First Soldier is likely going to be a piece I ignore outright, so whatever lore is added here is also going to be ignored by me unless they force it elsewhere. Saying its VR is fine. The specifics of reuse of assets is fine. Doyle and Watson both get their share as long as you think about it too hard.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Angry nerds are angry nerds anywhere else.

anonymous nerds are going to be awful no matter where you go

Ain’t that the truth...

I’m glad Hideaki Anno was brought up because I feel like managing to piss off both Western and Japanese fans with Evangelion is a feat of its own.

Stuff like decanonizing Last Order and releasing the Complete version of Advent Children are interesting cases of them actually changing something based on what seems to be audience reception. I guess those of us who have concerns about certain aspects of the Compilation can only hope that enough Japanese fans feel the same way to make a difference.

I mean, they’re clearly embracing Dirge of Cerberus a lot more than some of us would care to see, so I’m assuming not enough people hated the game enough for them to try to push that one under the rug. I imagine the same can be said for the story changes in Remake, if not enough Japanese fans respond negatively, then I’m assuming they’re here to stay?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I admit I didn't really consider fans on 2ch because everything on that imageboard is more raw, harsher and... Well, it's akin to our 4chan here (which actually was inspired by 2ch) which sorta says it all.

The anonymizing effect of internet posting combined with hardcore otaku of any series is going to invite strong opinions to show from all segments of fandom, no matter how overall well received or popular a series. With any type of series that continues itself like FFVII, those feelings on that imageboard are to be expected. I didn't mean to imply FFVII isn't without detractors based on its approach there, because they have them in Japan.

What's interesting though, is the convo in that 2ch thread goes back years. Like, I saw posts from 2017 there... And the arguments and criticisms run the gamut to how Tifa didn't get enough attention to Tifa being too overshadowed by Aerith and more.

Apparently, some things are the same no matter what side of the Pacific you're on.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

'He clapped his hands three or four times. "The time in between my clapping is ma. If you just have non-stop action with no breathing space at all, it's just busyness, But if you take a moment, then the tension building in the film can grow into a wider dimension. If you just have constant tension at 80 degrees all the time you just get numb." '

Miyazaki is right, as usual.
I don't think anyone is claiming this general idea ia unique to Japan, even if they have a specific word for the silence, the breathing spaces, the moments of rest. It's a part of pacing. The Teletubbies, to take one example of successful western children's media, did the same thing. I guess what I'm trying to say is, everybody knows good pacing when they see it.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Miyazaki is right, as usual.

Our Lord and Savior

 

[ForceStealer]

Ah, Japan's resident grouch

 

[Odysseus]

He sure doesn't mind selling out his own productions these days.