Final Fantasy VII: The First Soldier

[Life]

where is @Obsidian Fire???

 

[Life]

YES @Obsidian Fire is awesome.....

 

[Wol]

Comparing FFVII to a "world-first" story is interesting to me because there's a give and take to consider. Where Dragon Age is superior in world building, it lacks in characterization. Where FFVII lacks in world building, it makes up for with memorable characters.

I don't think it's that the creators are bad with world building, just that their priorities are elsewhere. Great characters like Cloud and Sephiroth don't come for free. I can't imagine the amount of conversations that have gone into developing them specifically. Wish I could snap my fingers and we'd get it all: memorable characters, a compelling narrative, and rich world building, but I think where the creators do spend their time makes sense for this series.

I disagree that DAIII's characterization is inferior. Not only it has more main characters, but it gives them personal quests and storylines + multiple options.

 

[Life]

But @Obsidian Fire ....

However, Wol, you seem sexy.

 

[Strangelove]

now i must know what nomura said but it's in an hour and a half long livestream and i scrubbed through the video like "yo where you at, tetsu" so i didn't have to watch the entire thing and then i find out he's just calling in or something so i couldn't just jump to the part where he shows up (he sounds different than i remember and i don't know if he's ill or something and now every time i hear someone cough i jump straight to covid)

so to find this one section i had to carefully skip through the video as to not skip past it

and it's an hour in so i ended up having to go through an hour of video

if i had to nitpick the vr thing, it would be that he doesn't seem to be saying 'creates areas without people in' or 'can generate images of midgar taken from the future'. for the first point, i'd say it's more describing the vr in the remake as a system where it's like showing people there who aren't actually there, so this is using a similar system to show images of midgar in the future/a future midgar. 'taken from the future' implies things that i'm not sure are there in the original quote, whereas my reading of it is just that it takes place in a vr system that can show you things that aren't really there so that's why you are in familiar areas when it's set 30 years in the past. i don't know if there's meant to be a deeper meaning to stuff like the church other than fanservice and reusing assets they already have built

the topic seems to change after that and i am not watching any more right now

here is a rough transcript of nomura's response cleaned up a bit to remove fillers and stuff so people can check i'm not just being a dumbass

Spoiler

マップは広がり続けて（inaudiable）
つい最近も今後の話をいろいろしてたんですけど
今入っていないマップの話とかをしていて　これはどこに置くって話をしてたら
いや実はここにこんな仕掛けがあって、みたいな

あれですね皆さん　たぶんちょっと　なんで現代のマップが
この過去の７の世界にあるのかっていうの　結構疑問に思われてる方が多いようですが
一応これは７のリメイクでもＶＲっていう（とこ・ってこう）
その場にいない人がいるみたいなシステムが入ってたですけど
同じようなシステムで未来のミッドガルの映像を映してる
その世界観で戦ってるってことになっているので
この辺の設定も野島さんのほうで設定していただいておりますので
今後はどんどんマップは増えていく

 

[Life]

@Strangelove (nice to meet you)

Good info, from what I can tell, you are an amazing contributor.

 

[ForceStealer]

I disagree that DAIII's characterization is inferior. Not only it has more main characters, but it gives them personal quests and storylines + multiple options.

So does FF, they're just usually part of the main quest.

And I think you're all looking for way too much from a mobile battle royale game.

 

[Odysseus]

I think Life is my favorite bot so far, it's trying so hard.

 

[Wol]

So does FF, they're just usually part of the main quest.

And I think you're all looking for way too much from a mobile battle royale game.

Oh I was referring to FFVIIR.

Being a mobile battle royale title, I expect little to none storyline in FS.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, sorry those were comments to separate conversations. Wasn't very clear

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Comparing FFVII to a "world-first" story is interesting to me because there's a give and take to consider. Where Dragon Age is superior in world building, it lacks in characterization. Where FFVII lacks in world building, it makes up for with memorable characters.

I don't think it's that the creators are bad with world building, just that their priorities are elsewhere. Great characters like Cloud and Sephiroth don't come for free. I can't imagine the amount of conversations that have gone into developing them specifically. Wish I could snap my fingers and we'd get it all: memorable characters, a compelling narrative, and rich world building, but I think where the creators do spend their time makes sense for this series.

I've only played Dragon Age: Inquisition, but I think characters like Cassandra, Solas and Cullen are the equal of any characters you'd find in any Final Fantasy. The NPCs in DA:I are as delightful as the NPCs in FFVII's OG were. It doesn't have to be either/or: you can have great world building and great characters.

 

[Ite]

I've only played Dragon Age: Inquisition, but I think characters like Cassandra, Solas and Cullen are the equal of any characters you'd find in any Final Fantasy. The NPCs in DA:I are as delightful as the NPCs in FFVII's OG were. It doesn't have to be either/or: you can have great world building and great characters.

I was super underwhelmed with most of the characters in DAO and DA:2. DA:I is one of my favourite all-time fantasy teams, and even characters I didn’t like from the first game have better roles and writing (looking at you, boob druid).

So the defense against this patently stupid “worldbuilding” for First Soldier is that it’s just a Fortnite game and we are all hoping they treat it as such going forward and we never hear of it again? So it’s a legit compilation entry then

 

[KindOfBlue]

I’m willing to bet more people would give this idea a pass if it had been in the OG lol

At this point though, I just chalk stuff like this up to cultural differences. I can’t think of a single Japanese media franchise this big that was completely logically consistent through and through. Maybe I’m wrong but I feel like Japanese audiences are a lot more accepting of more abstract ideas because as pointed out above, it’s really more about characters. By contrast, I find a lot of Western fantasy and sci-fi characters boring as hell even when their worlds are interesting.

Either way though, with everything else I’m expected to suspend my disbelief for in this crazy-ass universe, a VR simulator that simulates the future as the premise of a mobile battle royale game is hardly at the top of my list...it’s really not worth making a fuss over lol

 

[Tetsujin]

People need to not take shit so literally. There are SOLDIER tryouts and the vague justification is that it's VR. That's it. No it doesn't literally simulate the future. It doesn't even simulate the proper layout of Midgar. It's just a BR map that serves a BR function with iconic FFVII locations

 

[Strangelove]

now i want to go rewatch battle royale (and maybe 2 as well)

 

[Theozilla]

I’m willing to bet more people would give this idea a pass if it had been in the OG lol

At this point though, I just chalk stuff like this up to cultural differences. I can’t think of a single Japanese media franchise this big that was completely logically consistent through and through. Maybe I’m wrong but I feel like Japanese audiences are a lot more accepting of more abstract ideas because as pointed out above, it’s really more about characters. By contrast, I find a lot of Western fantasy and sci-fi characters boring as hell even when their worlds are interesting.

Either way though, with everything else I’m expected to suspend my disbelief for in this crazy-ass universe, a VR simulator that simulates the future as the premise of a mobile battle royale game is hardly at the top of my list...it’s really not worth making a fuss over lol

Yeah, a long time acquaintance of mine who works at a local brick-and-mortar comics and game shop in Oakland, who is Japanese-American, often said comparing the differences between Christopher Nolan’s Inception and Satoshi Kon’s Paprika was a good way of illustrating the artistic priorities and sensibilities between Japanese and (English speaking) Western storytelling. Like Inception go to great lengths to lay out the “rules” of how dreamworlds work, while Paprika is much more surreal and deliberately ambiguous in blending how and when reality and dreams meet. The acquaintance said that’s kinda similar to how much speculative fiction differs between the cultures.
(though as others said, this also just a Battle Royal mobile game, don’t take everything too literally or assign that much importance to it)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But there's nothing intentional or artistic in this confused, contradictory mess of 'word of God'. I would be perfectly happy if they didn't try to explain or reconcile things. The thing is, though, they do, and it's just BS piled on BS. It's like they're not even thinking, they just pull it out their arse.

 

[Wol]

Yeah, a long time acquaintance of mine who works at a local brick-and-mortar comics and game shop in Oakland, who is Japanese-American, often said comparing the differences between Christopher Nolan’s Inception and Satoshi Kon’s Paprika was a good way of illustrating the artistic priorities and sensibilities between Japanese and (English speaking) Western storytelling. Like Inception go to great lengths to lay out the “rules” of how dreamworlds work, while Paprika is much more surreal and deliberately ambiguous in blending how and when reality and dreams meet. The acquaintance said that’s kinda similar to how much speculative fiction differs between the cultures.
(though as others said, this also just a Battle Royal mobile game, don’t take everything too literally or assign that much importance to it)

But even between japanese products we can verify differences in quality.

At one point, you can have a story like Xenogears, and at the other end of the spectrum, you can have KH: Dream Drop Distance.

We can easily see the milking nature in KH, it's meant to be intentionally convoluted and vague to "justify" multiple fragmented entries, and there's always a "hole without rules" which can be filled with literally anything they want to continue the story with even more cryptic elements that leads to more cryptic elements.

 

[KindOfBlue]

But there's nothing intentional or artistic in this confused, contradictory mess of 'word of God'. I would be perfectly happy if they didn't try to explain or reconcile things. The thing is, though, they do, and it's just BS piled on BS. It's like they're not even thinking, they just pull it out their arse.

If we judged the OG FF7’s quality based on how intentional or artistic its choices were, something tells me we’d be left with a very different game if we adjusted it by those terms...but either way, unless that explanation ends up having some significant relevance to the plot then I really don’t think it’s worth much thought

But even between japanese products we can verify differences in quality.

At one point, you can have a story like Xenogears, and at the other end of the spectrum, you can have KH: Dream Drop Distance.

We can easily see the milking nature in KH, it's meant to be intentionally convoluted and vague to "justify" multiple fragmented entries, and there's always a "hole without rules" which can be filled with literally anything they want to continue the story with even more cryptic elements that leads to more cryptic elements.

And yet the people who like stuff like KH LOVE it, so it clearly appeals to somebody’s sensibilities if not our own...at some point I feel like you gotta just shrug your shoulders, say it is what it is, and move on

 

[Theozilla]

But even between japanese products we can verify differences in quality.

At one point, you can have a story like Xenogears, and at the other end of the spectrum, you can have KH: Dream Drop Distance.

We can easily see the milking nature in KH, it's meant to be intentionally convoluted and vague to "justify" multiple fragmented entries, and there's always a "hole without rules" which can be filled with literally anything they want to continue the story with even more cryptic elements that leads to more cryptic elements.

Oh of course course difference in quality of works can still be critically evaluated (which its own subjective endeavor) even if the cultural storytelling sensibilities differ between cultures. That was never my intention to imply otherwise, I just wanted to comment to add additional context for how different decisions are conceived and made for products in different cultural settings.

And giving a in-universe reconciliation/“reason” for why First Soldier reuses assets from the Remake is like how the 90s DC comics creatives decided the wanted to provide an in-universe reason for why Superman’s suit isn’t constantly being ripped/destroyed in fights, so they decided to say that part of Superman’s powers/invulnerability is that he has a skin tactile telekinetic force-field covering his body, which extends over and protects things that are worn.
Now for one person they may find that to be a completely silly and convoluted element to add and just draws more attention to the suspension of disbelief inherent in a fantastical fictional concept like Superman, while for others it makes it even less noticeable. It’s like how covering/patching up the cracks in something can just make the flaws just more highlighted to some people while for others they see it as an enhancement to the integrity of a work and effective masking of suspension of disbelief.
It’s the same phenomenon with with Nomura and the devs deciding to “explain” in-universe why present day Remake assets appear in a spin-off that exists in the fictional world’s past.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Oh of course course difference in quality of works can still be critically evaluated (which its own subjective endeavor) even if the cultural storytelling sensibilities differ between cultures. That was never my intention to imply otherwise, I just wanted to comment to add additional context for how different decisions are conceived and made for products in different cultural settings.

And giving a in-universe reconciliation/“reason” for why First Soldier reuses assets from the Remake is like how the 90s DC comics creatives decided the wanted to provide an in-universe reason for why Superman’s suit isn’t constantly being ripped/destroyed in fights, so they decided to say that part of Superman’s powers/invulnerability is that he has a skin tactile telekinetic force-field covering his body, which extends over and protects thing that are worn.
Now for one person they may find that to be a completely silly and convoluted element to add and just draws more attention to the suspension of disbelief inherent in a fantastical fictional concept like Superman, while for others it makes it even less noticeable. It’s like how covering/patching up the cracks in something can just make the flaws just more highlighted to some people while for others they see it as an enhancement to the integrity of a work and effective masking of suspension of disbelief.
It’s the same phenomenon with with Nomura and the devs deciding to “explain” in-universe why present day Remake assets appear in a spin-off that exists in the fictional world’s past.

In my headcanon, the devs thought “this fanbase overthinks everything anyways so for the handful of people who would actually want to rationalize this, let’s just give them the silliest explanation possible”

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This is also why I think the *era* FFVII was made in is important. No one (East or West) cared that much about story/world-building justification in the late 90's when it came to video-games. Heck, FFVII was one of the games that woke the video-gaming world up to the reality that story/world-building justification was something video-games could do *at all*.

The more modern FF games care *way more* about building a logical world than the OG FFVII did (particularly Matsuno's creative legacy). That's... half of why we even have the FFVII Compilation that we do. The video-game industry as a whole caught onto the idea that people liked logically consistent worlds and started making them.

The trouble starts when you get something like the FFVII OG that has gaping holes in its world-building already and start trying to give a more logical world-building reason for them.... all while staying true to how the creative directors who came up the ideas wanted them to come off. There's no way to make FFVII feel "real" given the timeline that it has. Technology changed too fast, too globally for a lot more "realistic" explanations to work. So just about any explanation for why the world is how it is is going to not feel "realistic".

Personally, I'm fine with how this has gone. I'd much rather have a more... unbelievable... explanation while keeping the setting/narrative tone of a work the creative directors want it to have. Sacrificing the setting/narrative tone for a more realistic explanation leads to a lot more "samey" works.

What I more think is going on is that the creative devs have one setting/narrative tone for FFVII in mind, while various parts of the fandom (particularly in the West) have a different setting/narrative tone in mind. So when the creative directions give explanations that don't fit up to the fandom's exceptions of tone, you have fans wondering what the creative directors are seeing in their work that the fans aren't. And no one likes to be wrong.

 

[Wol]

If we judged the OG FF7’s quality based on how intentional or artistic its choices were, something tells me we’d be left with a very different game if we adjusted it by those terms...but either way, unless that explanation ends up having some significant relevance to the plot then I really don’t think it’s worth much thought


And yet the people who like stuff like KH LOVE it, so it clearly appeals to somebody’s sensibilities if not our own...at some point I feel like you gotta just shrug your shoulders, say it is what it is, and move on

Well, it appeals to me too. I like how crazy KH is, its gameplay and music, but like many other fans I realize the story is simply made up as they go along, with very questionable dialogue and plot holes.

I also enjoyed most of FFVIIR, but it could be a lot better without those plot developments and the way they were introduced.

This storytelling style is artificial, it creates unnecessary complexity dilluting its consistency to justify more fragmented stories.

 

[Strangelove]

i spent 15 minutes the other day on a japanese kh fan wiki reading about time travel trying to understand how it worked and i think i left more confused than i started, where i didn't really get it but could just go with it

compared to that, just saying 'it's a vr machine' is a welcome relief

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah, the patchwork nature of how many video games tell and add to their stories and lore kinda reminds me of the philosophy behind the art of kintsugi, where the flaws and repairs of a piece are meant to become a part of work rather than an obfuscation of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi


(now to be clear, I am not trying to equate the value of some mobile battle royal spin-off to the many great works of kintsugi, the corporate-capitalistic motivations behind the former drive the production of those products much more than any artistic philosophy. All the same, the similarities in the philosophy and aesthetics of art, both “high” and “low”/cheap, are interesting to point out and compare with.)