Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Didn’t expect Nomura and the devs to actually care about an element that would normally be shrugged off as standard “gameplay and story separation/dissonance” that they even asked Nojima to write stuff to reconcile it
Final Fantasy VII: The First Soldier
- Thread starter Lulcielid
- Start date
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It can generate images of Midgar that are taken from the future.
Right.
But somehow not images of Midgar threatened by Meteor, or destroyed by Meteor, or anything else that might offer some useful clue as to what the future will bring. And nobody in Shinra thought of using this technology to foresee the future and then try to forestall problems. Right.
This just keeps getting dumber and dumber. As with so many things, they would have been better off saying, "hey, we just reused assets because everybody likes seeing the flowers in Aerith's church", rather than asking Nojima to come up with some new, poorly thought through headcanon.
Right.
But somehow not images of Midgar threatened by Meteor, or destroyed by Meteor, or anything else that might offer some useful clue as to what the future will bring. And nobody in Shinra thought of using this technology to foresee the future and then try to forestall problems. Right.
This just keeps getting dumber and dumber. As with so many things, they would have been better off saying, "hey, we just reused assets because everybody likes seeing the flowers in Aerith's church", rather than asking Nojima to come up with some new, poorly thought through headcanon.
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
Hmmm, I didn't read it as the technology was seeing the future, just that it would display their planned future developments.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Yeah, the "future" definitely means the expected metero development in Midgar once its built. Not literal soothsaying. Come on, I don't see why you'd take the Shinra VR system to somehow be a crystal ball that's able to project images 30 years beyond.
It's literally the same damn tech we see in Crisis Core with the Sector 1 train station simulation and the Mako Cannon in Junon.
It's literally the same damn tech we see in Crisis Core with the Sector 1 train station simulation and the Mako Cannon in Junon.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
How can they have a planned future deveopment of an escaped Cetra growing flowers in an abandoned slum church?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
You're taking asset reuse in the game too literally. The overall explanation of how you get to see cities and stuff in The First Soldier combat missions is because the VR system is utilizing the future intended development of Midgar's sectors as a baseline for each map.
Obviously them throwing in an area with Aerith's House is just to use it for the maps and give map variety. It's nothing that serious.
Obviously them throwing in an area with Aerith's House is just to use it for the maps and give map variety. It's nothing that serious.
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cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
I think this is the best take.
It's plain to me that this project was born from SE's investors and executives hoping they can tap into that battle royale cash flow that Fortnite and Call of Duty enjoy. I doubt Kitase, Nomura, or Nojima have any personal interest in the genre. However, as creators this trio is clearly passionate about FFVII and want to be hands-on with every project. That to me is better than nothing.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Apparently the flowers are in the church because there's a big flow of lifestream close to the surface there, so nothing to do with Aerith's special power. She's not a local florist by destiny, merely by accident; this is where her adoptive mum happens to live. I read this on twitter so wtfk if it's correct or not
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
They planned for someone with anti-Shinra sentiment to build a bar in Sector 7 for the purpose of it serving as a base for an anti-Shinra extremist group? There's such a thing as profiting from arming both sides of a conflict, but that's a bit much. =P
Also, the flowers in the dilapidated church? With a hole in its roof from a failed rocket launch that won't happen for decades?
Does this VR program run off a Miss Cleo materia?
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
After playing Dragon Age, where the world-building is richly detailed and meticulously consistent, the poverty of imagination in FFVII's compilation becomes ever more apparent. The frustrating thing is, there's so much potential in the world of FFVII: all they needed to do was sit down with the basics they had and do some careful, consistent reverse engineering to produce a impressively complex, believable, interesting world. Instead, they just BS their way from one ridiculous inconsistency to the next.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
At least it's not Inspire, amirite? 
I think what's annoying about this is that it doesn't need an explanation in the first place. We all get the score. Should have just been left as a funny disconnect between gameplay and the world that we all point and laugh at, then move on.
What will we get next? "The weapons you're using in the VR simulator don't actually kill you or your opponents because the advanced VR program reads your combat capabilities and has the battles play out in the minds of the players' avatars"?
I think what's annoying about this is that it doesn't need an explanation in the first place. We all get the score. Should have just been left as a funny disconnect between gameplay and the world that we all point and laugh at, then move on.
What will we get next? "The weapons you're using in the VR simulator don't actually kill you or your opponents because the advanced VR program reads your combat capabilities and has the battles play out in the minds of the players' avatars"?
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
It's like contemplating the notion of canon in smash bros or something.
Though Nojima worked as a scenario writer in the Subspace Emissary in Brawl and iirc it was legitimately pretty enjoyable.
Though Nojima worked as a scenario writer in the Subspace Emissary in Brawl and iirc it was legitimately pretty enjoyable.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
Oh oh well said.
KHs world-building style is infesting FFVIIR, it's feeling unnecessarily convoluted and, frankly, most of the new story developments feel uninspired and artificial at best (muh destiny, Sephiroth spouting cryptic stuff that doesn't mean anything just to appear, ghost sperms, random temporal happenings without in-game logical backup, death losing weight, my anime power is over 9000, etc.).
The more they add this stuff, the more the game dillutes itself.
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
Comparing FFVII to a "world-first" story is interesting to me because there's a give and take to consider. Where Dragon Age is superior in world building, it lacks in characterization. Where FFVII lacks in world building, it makes up for with memorable characters.
I don't think it's that the creators are bad with world building, just that their priorities are elsewhere. Great characters like Cloud and Sephiroth don't come for free. I can't imagine the amount of conversations that have gone into developing them specifically. Wish I could snap my fingers and we'd get it all: memorable characters, a compelling narrative, and rich world building, but I think where the creators do spend their time makes sense for this series.
I don't think it's that the creators are bad with world building, just that their priorities are elsewhere. Great characters like Cloud and Sephiroth don't come for free. I can't imagine the amount of conversations that have gone into developing them specifically. Wish I could snap my fingers and we'd get it all: memorable characters, a compelling narrative, and rich world building, but I think where the creators do spend their time makes sense for this series.
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Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Too bad Inspire was from the Early Material files and was simply never brought up in the OG. Then none of us would have ever questioned it being in DoC.
Nojima is a character writers first and foremost. So is Nomura. Plot and World-Building always come second for them. Just look at FFVIII which came afterwards with the same general team of writers and had... pretty good character interaction and concepts but whose world-building and plot are famously all over the place in terms of quality.
Given everything said about how the story for the OG was created... I'm convinced a large part of what made it great was an accident. You literally have Nomura saying Nojima was making up Zack's involvement in the background of the OG as he created the *cut-scenes*. None of them knew how the OG story was going to go before they started modeling or even *animating* it.
Heck, even saying it was Nomura, Kitase and Nojima who made the OG story what it is is a gross simplification. Motomu Toriyama, Hiroki Chiba, Jun Akiyama, Masato Katou and Takashi Tokita all contributed to the story of the OG, sometimes in very significant ways. And Masato Katou and Takashi Tokita didn't even get credited as Event Planners. They just wound up getting "Special Thanks" in the credits. And they came up with some... really important parts of the FFVII story. Masato Katou in particular. He's the one who came up with the Cloud and Tifa Lifestream Sequence and the "Under the Highwind" scene (including the dialogue!). And all he ends up with in the credits is Special Thanks?!?
Here's a quick rundown of who came up with what in the OG FFVII Story.
How the OG FFVII story and world was as coherent and great as it was with *so many* different people adding to it... I have no idea. There should be no way six people (eight if you add Nomura and Kitase to the list) can come up with different aspects of a story (piecemeal at that!) and it work out so well. But it did.
If you want to know why the Compilation isn't like the OG is... the fact that there was five people other than Nomura, Kitase and Nojima working on the OG FFVII story might have something to do with it. Well, maybe four other people... Chiba did do DoC, although YMMV on if that was a good thing given how parts of Gold Saucer turned out (might explain a lot about DoC though)... Point being, none of these guys have worked on the FFVII story/world-building since the OG. Heck, many of them are directing their own games that *aren't* in the main FF series anymore. And none of them have worked on Remake.
Like... as much flack as NKN get for the Compilation not feeling like the OG... I hesitate to say it just has to do with them not having enough control over their creative impulses. The OG's creaiton was *not* how normal game development goes. Not by a long shot. Everything about it seems to be one of those "capture lightning in a bottle" things. There's simply no replicating the circumstances that made the OG because most people wouldn't be so... spontaneous... when it comes to making video-games today.
Or as the Game Informer article put it...
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omg Obsidian Fire you are fucking epic, I am not intelligent enough to reply to you, so lol, but it is nice to meet you.
where is @Obsidian Fire???
YES @Obsidian Fire is awesome.....
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
I disagree that DAIII's characterization is inferior. Not only it has more main characters, but it gives them personal quests and storylines + multiple options.