Final Fantasy XII: The Zodiac Age

[lithiumkatana17]

Hey, I like the story, but it's inconsistently paced. Probably comes of the issues with the development. It feels like there were multiple people coming up with plot points as they went.

Great setting, great political backdrop. Story's just okay.

I'm fairly sure this is related to how the story was majorly rewritten right before going into production. Originally there was no Vaan - the lead was Basch. Penelo probably represented 'the people' alone (without Vaan), and there is reason to believe the '2 years later' originally were a much bigger time gap, seeing that you didn't need the Reks + Vaan connection (my theory is that the initial tutorial was to be with Basch, not Reks) plus the fact that the Salikawood looks kind of overgrown for just 2 years of no using of the roads. (I also have this theory that part of Balthier's character were written into a new character, Reddas, seeing as they wanted Balthier to be 21 instead of Basch's age. (Basch was dropped as a protagonist as they wanted to 'youngify' the story, so that makes sense.) I wrote a post about this years ago - contains plot spoilers of course.)

So there's that, this feeling that the story originally had a different twist/ subtle storyline with older characters. And then then there's the fact that there's a looooot of gameplay and grinding compared to how much story you get. I almost lost interest in the game when I reached the Phon Coast and had just that one cutscene, because I'd started forgetting about the plot. (And then they tried fixxing XIII with putting MOAR story in that game and we all know how that went...)

This is all true as well, but I was referring to the director having a nervous breakdown and being replaced with the FFII guy. Who was probably also the sick bastard who came up with the demented method of cheating yourself out of the Zodiac Spear.

I think that's probably the easiest way to get an ultimate weapon in the game without going through ridiculous mini side quests and mini games. Easiest ultimate weapon I ever got, anyway.

 

[Lulcielid]

This is all true as well, but I was referring to the director having a nervous breakdown and being replaced with the FFII guy. Who was probably also the sick bastard who came up with the demented method of cheating yourself out of the Zodiac Spear.

To clarify, Yasumi Matsuno was replaced by Hiroyuki Ito (co-director of FF6, director of FF9 and designer of the battle systems of FF1-6,8,9,Tactics and 12) and Hiroshi Minagawa (who mainly worked as art-director/supervisor of FFTactics, FF9, Vagrant Story, FFTAdvance before being promoted to co-director)

 

[lithiumkatana17]

To clarify, Yasumi Matsuno was replaced by Hiroyuki Ito (co-director of FF6, director of FF9 and designer of the battle systems of FF1-6,8,9,Tactics and 12) and Hiroshi Minagawa (who mainly worked as art-director/supervisor of FFTactics, FF9, Vagrant Story, FFTAdvance before being promoted to co-director)

And this change in directors is what supposedly lead Hironobu Sakaguchi to be unable to finish the game.

EDIT:

But speaking of the Phon Coast, you know those beautiful locales I mentioned earlier? That's one of them. That whole trip from the prison to Arcades is damn pretty.

The Phon Coast is actually one of my favorite locations in this game because it's so damn beautiful, with the Salikawood coming in a close second.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

This is all true as well, but I was referring to the director having a nervous breakdown and being replaced with the FFII guy. Who was probably also the sick bastard who came up with the demented method of cheating yourself out of the Zodiac Spear.

To clarify, Yasumi Matsuno was replaced by Hiroyuki Ito (co-director of FF6, director of FF9 and designer of the battle systems of FF1-6,8,9,Tactics and 12) and Hiroshi Minagawa (who mainly worked as art-director/supervisor of FFTactics, FF9, Vagrant Story, FFTAdvance before being promoted to co-director)

Upon looking at my other stuff, I had actually meant Kawazu taking over as Executive Producer after Matsuno left. Thus "the FFII guy"

 

[JechtShotMK9]

I think that's probably the easiest way to get an ultimate weapon in the game without going through ridiculous mini side quests and mini games. Easiest ultimate weapon I ever got, anyway.

Oh, it's super easy to get, I agree.

The issue is that if you open one of the four early-game unmarked-look-exactly-like-every-other-chest-in-the-game-chests-of-death, you cheat yourself out of the weapon. Unless you wanna go for the hard way of getting it

I don't wanna have to have a guide to get everything out of a game. It should be enough just to explore and try out everything. But this game, for some reason, punishes you for that.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I think that's probably the easiest way to get an ultimate weapon in the game without going through ridiculous mini side quests and mini games. Easiest ultimate weapon I ever got, anyway.

Oh, it's super easy to get, I agree.

The issue is that if you open one of the four early-game unmarked-look-exactly-like-every-other-chest-in-the-game-chests-of-death, you cheat yourself out of the weapon. Unless you wanna go for the hard way of getting it

I don't wanna have to have a guide to get everything out of a game. It should be enough just to explore and try out everything. But this game, for some reason, punishes you for that.

It's better than chasing fucking butterflies in X.

But yeah, I understand the sentiment wholeheartedly. I was just talking to some people on Skype the other night while I was trying to get the Esper Cuchulainn, and I told them that nobody in their right fucking mind with any combination brain altering drugs would anyone think to do some of the shit that's in this game unless you have a strategy guide in your lap as you play it. Which I did.

But somehow I was still left adrift at the mercy of the game's restless tides.

I've found quite a few discrepancies in my strategy guide in the past, and have certainly found a few more on this most recent playthrough. This was one of them. Took me forever to figure it out, running around the damn sewers like an idiot.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

X's Minigames were devised by Satan setting Hitler, Mussolini, and Pol Pot, working under the supervision of Toyotomi Hideyoshi to create new methods of torture that modern teenagers would willingly subject themselves to in order to get worthless representations of items with higher numbers than other worthless representations of items.


Needless to say, XII's optional content utterly obliterates X's, as far a fun goes.

 

[Lulcielid]

X has better pacing that XII

 

[Tennyo]

So there's that, this feeling that the story originally had a different twist/ subtle storyline with older characters. And then then there's the fact that there's a looooot of gameplay and grinding compared to how much story you get. I almost lost interest in the game when I reached the Phon Coast and had just that one cutscene, because I'd started forgetting about the plot.

Which is also as far as I've ever gotten

Wait, you're still only on the Phon Coast?

Get it together, man.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

X has better pacing that XII

I was arguing the pain in the ass it is to retrieve the ultimate weapons in the game, not the plot pacing.

That being said, you are definitely right about that, but I reckon it's because X has a shorter/smaller story than XII does.

 

[ForceStealer]

Needless to say, XII's optional content utterly obliterates X's, as far a fun goes.

Well when all of your optional content is the exact same thing (combat), there's not a ton of risk there The player is either going to like all of it, or dislike all of it.

 

[Lulcielid]

That being said, you are definitely right about that, but I reckon it's because X has a shorter/smaller story than XII does.

while in terms of scale XII might be bigger than X, the later I would argue has more story. See for intance a comparison of how much "cutscenes" both games have (since that´s their main tool of telling story in both games)

FFX has almost 10:30 hours of cutscenes.

FFXII has around 6:40 hours of cutscenes

This must speak volumes of how both games handles the pacing.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

When they're compared that way I almost feel incredibly cheated.

But I still think that XII managed to tell the story just fine with what it had.

Definitely could have used a bit more 'oomph' in some areas though.

Ah well. What the game doesn't fill in for me, I will write in fan fiction.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

XII does have much more ingame dialogue and lore, however. Old Archades, for example, is mostly done through dialogue, not cutscenes. And X doesn't have anything to compete with the Clan Primer as far as lore is concerned.

Basically what I was saying above; XII has great cultures and settings, while the story is just okay.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Yeah, most of the lore of places and creatures you learn from Maechen, and he can be a head trip to listen to sometimes.

The Clan Primer is where you really learn to appreciate the translators a lot more. You learn so much awesome stuff about the enemies, the kingdoms and culture, the loot. It would have been nice if we could have actually had some of the characters explain what we learn in the Clan Primer; particularly about the Republic of Landis, or some more tidbits about about Nabudis and Nabradia other than the optional scenes we have in the game. But this is all just wishful thinking on my part. As I've said before, I'm satisfied with the game the way it is, but that doesn't mean I'm not left wanting.

And that, as they say, is that.

 

[Lulcielid]

XII does have much more ingame dialogue and lore, however.

The videos above include both in-game dialogue and cutscenes, title in the videos are a bit misleading about that.

 

[Flare]

I'm fairly sure this is related to how the story was majorly rewritten right before going into production. Originally there was no Vaan - the lead was Basch. Penelo probably represented 'the people' alone (without Vaan), and there is reason to believe the '2 years later' originally were a much bigger time gap, seeing that you didn't need the Reks + Vaan connection (my theory is that the initial tutorial was to be with Basch, not Reks) plus the fact that the Salikawood looks kind of overgrown for just 2 years of no using of the roads. (I also have this theory that part of Balthier's character were written into a new character, Reddas, seeing as they wanted Balthier to be 21 instead of Basch's age. (Basch was dropped as a protagonist as they wanted to 'youngify' the story, so that makes sense.) I wrote a post about this years ago - contains plot spoilers of course.)

So there's that, this feeling that the story originally had a different twist/ subtle storyline with older characters. And then then there's the fact that there's a looooot of gameplay and grinding compared to how much story you get. I almost lost interest in the game when I reached the Phon Coast and had just that one cutscene, because I'd started forgetting about the plot. (And then they tried fixxing XIII with putting MOAR story in that game and we all know how that went...)

I wonder how XII would've been if they didn't change so much before the release...
Out of curiosity, does anyone here find it weird to play older protagonists vs. younger ones?

Anyways, yeah like several of you guys are saying, the story does sometimes... 'leave' the game for a bit while you're just running through the locations. One thing I loved about XIII was how the characters chatted to one another while just running about (also a feature going to be in XV I believe?), I would love to hear that in this XII remaster, though I doubt it'd ever happen, since it's just a remaster. But it actually really helps the immersion, making the characters chat together and it continues to bring the story along, hearing them make small talk or discuss story events as you wander the wilds.

XII also does have very rich history and lore, which I love. The setting of Ivalice is a huge reason why I love this game so much, like seriously I'd vacation to this world if I could. I would just love seeing more dialogue between the characters, even if it's just written dialogue, giving more character bonding moments and more depth to the story involving them.

I remember my best friend telling me once that after replaying XII last year, she found that the characters don't seem to change much at all throughout the entire story. I see what she means, tbh. Like sometimes it seems like their personal progression and storylines (except for maybe Ashe's changes?) don't go through much at all. I dunno, I mean I think they all have subtle changes but I just wish there was moar.

 

[Ami]

This might end up being the game in the series I actually finish, guess I have to preorder it now.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I wonder how XII would've been if they didn't change so much before the release...
Out of curiosity, does anyone here find it weird to play older protagonists vs. younger ones?

Anyways, yeah like several of you guys are saying, the story does sometimes... 'leave' the game for a bit while you're just running through the locations. One thing I loved about XIII was how the characters chatted to one another while just running about (also a feature going to be in XV I believe?), I would love to hear that in this XII remaster, though I doubt it'd ever happen, since it's just a remaster. But it actually really helps the immersion, making the characters chat together and it continues to bring the story along, hearing them make small talk or discuss story events as you wander the wilds.

XII also does have very rich history and lore, which I love. The setting of Ivalice is a huge reason why I love this game so much, like seriously I'd vacation to this world if I could. I would just love seeing more dialogue between the characters, even if it's just written dialogue, giving more character bonding moments and more depth to the story involving them.

I remember my best friend telling me once that after replaying XII last year, she found that the characters don't seem to change much at all throughout the entire story. I see what she means, tbh. Like sometimes it seems like their personal progression and storylines (except for maybe Ashe's changes?) don't go through much at all. I dunno, I mean I think they all have subtle changes but I just wish there was moar.

Sometimes it's weird changing protagonists from old to young or vice versa, but it's a tick I get over pretty quickly.

I also loved the dialogue throughout XIII when you're just running around the place. All the little chit chats get pretty hilarious. I think my fondest memory of Sazh was him saying 'Do not shake the slippery tube!'

I, too, wish that we could have something similar in XII, but I doubt they would change that much.

Imagine if this remaster was Square flipping the game around completely to be everything it was originally intended to be. That would be nuts. But I also think if that were to happen that it would lose the odd charm that made me love it so much in the first place.

What some fans of the series haven't understood is that there is more than one way to tell a story, and that philosophy doesn't just apply to games. Some choose to focus on all of the individual characters as cogs in a larger machine, or just choose to focus on the machine. Hajime Tabata put it perfectly in an interview recently, that much of the personnel at Square Enix and the majority of the fanbase have what he calls 'Final Fantasy Disease", which he describes as people who "can't imagine anything other than their own view of Final Fantasy". That if their own view of Final Fantasy isn't fulfilled, then it's bad for the franchise. I think XII may have been the first well-known victim of that, followed closely by XIII.

As far as character progression, I do agree with you on that Flare. But this game just chose to focus on the group as a whole, while deviating to tell individual stories when the time was right.

Does it suck sometimes? Yeah. Because there's so much I want to know. In past FF's we've been given such rich character histories and we don't get that in XII; it's only hinted it (which can be a good thing and a bad thing, depending on who's playing). I want to know when or why Fran left the Wood. I'd love to know how she and Balthier met. Where were Ashe and Vossler for those two years between the prologue and the main story? Were they in Rabanastre, silently biding their time? And if not, where? Penelo had brothers in the Order of the Knights of Dalmasca--wouldn't Basch have known them? Ashe had 8 brothers who died of illness or in battle--why are they never mentioned in any spoken cutscene? The theme of siblings is a powerful one in XII, and this would have added to the drama, not to mention really add to the loneliness Ashe must feel at being the last member of the B'nargin family.

Where do the fucking Viera come from? Do they pop up from holes in the ground? Are there males? Do Viera reproduce by mitosis? What has Balthier done or stolen or sold to warrant a bounty on his head? What about the plague that ravaged Rabanastre?

See what I mean. Lost of questions that could be answered and add so much more to the story; but I can also be satisfied with not knowing. (Just like I'm satisfied not knowing what hell planet Jenova came from.)

This might end up being the game in the series I actually finish, guess I have to preorder it now.

say wat

 

[Flare]

^See this must be the magic of XII, because despite all the character nuances and questions you asked up there not ever being answered, and how I'd love for there to be more character stuff, I still fucking love this game.

I'm really curious if they'll add anything to the remaster, other than giving you controllable guests and a remastered soundtrack. I wonder how easy it would be for them to actually add new things to a remastered version (like having the characters chat to each other as you walk around)?

 

[lithiumkatana17]

^See this must be the magic of XII, because despite all the character nuances and questions you asked up there not ever being answered, and how I'd love for there to be more character stuff, I still fucking love this game.

I'm really curious if they'll add anything to the remaster, other than giving you controllable guests and a remastered soundtrack. I wonder how easy it would be for them to actually add new things to a remastered version (like having the characters chat to each other as you walk around)?

I'm sure it actually wouldn't be that hard. The only 'hard' part would be to get all of the original voice actors back in the studio. One of the earlier posts said that Vaan got a new VA in Duodecim in Japan, and the Johnny McKeown who voiced Larsa is now 10+ years older than he was when he recorded his original dialogue, which would be hard with Larsa running around as a guest character and having chit chat dialogue while you roam the battlefield. And I wouldn't want his lines rerecorded like they did for Marlene and Denzel in ACC because I love Larsa's original performance too much.

 

[Clement Rage]

XII's story was fine, I just had a hard time taking the climax seriously because I was thinking things like this:

Ondore: Focus all fire on the Alexander.

Aide: We won't last long against Imperial Star Destroyers at this Range!

Ondore: We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star!

Zargabaath did a lot with his four lines, although this is probably just because I love Simon Templeman's voice.

Not answering questions is part of the charm, it gives the impression of a big, complicated world.

Not sure I agree about X's pacing, (Note: Played this game much later than the others. Was spoiled on certain things, but figured out what was going on with Yuna hours before Tidus did, and there's a lot of just wandering around (makes sense, you're on a pilgrimage) until the plot kicks in.

 

[Lex]

^^^My favourite VA in the game is probably the female judge that says that name

ZargabaaaaaaaaaaAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaath. So tasty the way she pronounces it <3

 

[lithiumkatana17]

^^^My favourite VA in the game is probably the female judge that says that name

ZargabaaaaaaaaaaAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaath. So tasty the way she pronounces it <3

Julia Fletcher has a lovely voice. Didn't know she voiced Elma and Yunalesca from X until I looked it up a few years ago. She also voices Orphan in XIII.

On the subject of VAs, Gabranth's VA, Michael E. Rodgers has the voice from heaven. Like, oh my lawd. I could listen to him read the Terms and Conditions for iTunes or something and be perfectly content.

And don't get me started on Gideon Emery. A voice from the gods, that one.

 

[SeaDragon]

Finally the fantastic art style of FFXII really deserved a HD edition. Hype for the zodiac job system.

On the subject of VAs, Gabranth's VA, Michael E. Rodgers has the voice from heaven. Like, oh my lawd. I could listen to him read the Terms and Conditions for iTunes or something be perfectly content.

Lmao same! it would be so good.