Final Fantasy XII: The Zodiac Age

[Flare]

When I was replayed XII last year, that's something I noticed right away about Vayne this time, whereas I didn't quite connect with it the first time, is how he's actually trying to do what he feels is best for mankind. I mean you could say Seymour from X did the same, buuuut

Spoiler

with Vayne, he actually wasn't crazy and insane, in fact he seemed quite in his right mind. He might not've been a 'good guy', but in the end he was trying his hardest to get rid of the Occuria's grip on mankind and the world. Plus, to be honest he did seem to treat those in Dalmasca fairly well, from what I remember.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

When you talk to the NPC's in Dalmasca throughout the game, you learn that most of them are doing just fine under Imperial control. The only ones who are dead-set against it are Vaan and Ashe, both of whom can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

#VayneWasRight

 

[Fangu]

^ After Vayne's speech, aye. But the first hour of cutscenes clearly state that Dalmascans have it way worse now than two years prior.

 

[Ghost X]

Damn it, you all are making me want to play the game again .

 

[lithiumkatana17]

^ After Vayne's speech, aye. But the first hour of cutscenes clearly state that Dalmascans have it way worse now than two years prior.

Fangu is right. It is known.

The NPCs in Lowtown talk shit about Vayne and Archadia, while some of the ones you meet above the plate ground will say that he may not necessarily be a bad guy. I remember speaking to a few after the fete that said once Vayne gave the guards a stiff talking to they stopped treating the majority of the citizens like crap. So there's that.

Opinions in the city differ on Vayne, just like they would in real life. I guess that's the beauty of the game, and his character.

Stop all this talk about Vayne now! I don't need moar fanfics to write, you heathens!

Damn it, you all are making me want to play the game again .

DO IT! DO IT NAO!

You know you wanna...

 

[Fangu]

Spoiler: Storyline spoilers

So... was Vayne right?

The more I think about the story the more I think "hang on a minute".
The 'Occuria' were controlling humanity from the shadows and Vayne & Cid wanted to end that; "put the reins of history back in the hands of man" right?

The Archadian Empire invades & conquers two countries so Vayne & Cid are very much bad guys. Their method was awful but the motive of trying to have humanity decide it's future by itself?
The six main characters were fighting to keep the status quo; to keep the Occuria in charge (as well as liberate Dalmasca).

Can someone with better memory of the game (and perhaps less rambling) explain this please?

Quoting Tenny:

At first yes, they were fighting for that, but in the end

Spoiler

Ashe basically does what Cid wants but he and Vayne are still loonies who need to go down.

Spoiler

Technically it's Reddas
But yes, Ashe gets the sword from the Occuria to cut a stone from the Suncryst to use against the Empire (as the Occuria wants; as they did with King Raithwall) but instead ends up destroying the Sun Cryst (as Cid & Vayne wanted), as she realises they've been using her need for vengeance (Dalmasca, Rasler) - using her as a puppet to keep control over Ivalice.

IMO in the end she doesn't really choose Venat/Cid/Vayne... she just chooses not to choose the Occuria Hey, one step at a time, right?

In other words...

Spoiler

Liberating humanity from the Occuria doesn't liberate Dalmasca from Archadia.

So in the end they save the day and yet the villains also got what they wanted as well.

Spoiler

Well... technically Cid and Vayne dies and Venat suffers a setback, but yeah. They do, in a way. (Yet not.)

I think a key point is that Cid & Vayne keeps saying 'men' while what they really mean is 'us' They want to be in charge, so they seek the help of technology (by using Venat's help), just like King Raithwall in his time used the help of the Occuria.

So you could say King Rathwall was just as 'bad'.

The 'everyone believes they're doing this for the good' part about the storyline is what makes me love it. Because, in some way, Ashe's motivations aren't really any 'better' than anyone else's: In the end, yes, she wants to free her people, but her major drive is in fact her lust for revenge.

Spoiler

But Ashe #wins because she manages to still that lust.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Villains can be right about stuff, but still be dicks. That's another reason to like FFXII. Complex villains :p.

Perhaps the best example of this is

Spoiler

during the ending when Judge Zargabaath sends the Alexander on a suicide run toward the Bahamut to save Rabanastre. Balthier and Fran prevent the need for that sacrifice, but the moment he announces it and orders all ships in Rabanastre airspace to open fire on the remains of his own ship once the deed is done is one of my favorite in all FF.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

Just saying, that Archades is the one with a duly-elected ruler chosen by the people, while Dalmasca is an autocratic region with a monarch free to act as they choose, heedless of the people's wishes. You didn't see Ashe asking any Dalmascans what they thought, after all

#VayneWasRight

 

[Tennyo]

Spoiler: Storyline spoilers

So... was Vayne right?

The more I think about the story the more I think "hang on a minute".
The 'Occuria' were controlling humanity from the shadows and Vayne & Cid wanted to end that; "put the reins of history back in the hands of man" right?

The Archadian Empire invades & conquers two countries so Vayne & Cid are very much bad guys. Their method was awful but the motive of trying to have humanity decide it's future by itself?
The six main characters were fighting to keep the status quo; to keep the Occuria in charge (as well as liberate Dalmasca).

Can someone with better memory of the game (and perhaps less rambling) explain this please?

Quoting Tenny:

At first yes, they were fighting for that, but in the end

Spoiler

Ashe basically does what Cid wants but he and Vayne are still loonies who need to go down.

Spoiler

Technically it's Reddas
But yes, Ashe gets the sword from the Occuria to cut a stone from the Suncryst to use against the Empire (as the Occuria wants; as they did with King Raithwall) but instead ends up destroying the Sun Cryst (as Cid & Vayne wanted), as she realises they've been using her need for vengeance (Dalmasca, Rasler) - using her as a puppet to keep control over Ivalice.

IMO in the end she doesn't really choose Venat/Cid/Vayne... she just chooses not to choose the Occuria Hey, one step at a time, right?

In other words...

Spoiler

Liberating humanity from the Occuria doesn't liberate Dalmasca from Archadia.

So in the end they save the day and yet the villains also got what they wanted as well.

Spoiler

Well... technically Cid and Vayne dies and Venat suffers a setback, but yeah. They do, in a way. (Yet not.)

I think a key point is that Cid & Vayne keeps saying 'men' while what they really mean is 'us' They want to be in charge, so they seek the help of technology (by using Venat's help), just like King Raithwall in his time used the help of the Occuria.

So you could say King Rathwall was just as 'bad'.

The 'everyone believes they're doing this for the good' part about the storyline is what makes me love it. Because, in some way, Ashe's motivations aren't really any 'better' than anyone else's: In the end, yes, she wants to free her people, but her major drive is in fact her lust for revenge.

Spoiler

But Ashe #wins because she manages to still that lust.

I guess my meaning was that

Spoiler

she didn't want to destoy the Suncryst because they wanted her to, but she just happened to make a choice that was in favor of their goals. During the confrontation with Cid Ashe very defiantly declares her intentions and he just laughs and says, "Indeed you must!" or some such.

I admit I was oversimplifying the plot for the sake of time. And then yeah forgot to give Reddas his due.

 

[Clement Rage]

Spoiler

Perhaps the best example of this is during the ending when Judge Zargabaath sends the Alexander on a suicide run toward the Bahamut to save Rabanastre. Balthier and Fran prevent the need for that sacrifice, but the moment he announces it and orders all ships in Rabanastre airspace to open fire on the remains of his own ship once the deed is done is one of my favorite in all FF.

Spoiler

Zaargabaath is basically like Beatrix, he didn't want to do any of that stuff to begin with

The NPCs in Lowtown talk shit about Vayne and Archadia, while some of the ones you meet above the plate ground will say that he may not necessarily be a bad guy. I remember speaking to a few after the fete that said once Vayne gave the guards a stiff talking to they stopped treating the majority of the citizens like crap. So there's that.

I figured that was a Machiavelli style stunt where he deliberately appointed a brutal governor so he could look better by comparison when he took over.

that Archades is the one with a duly-elected ruler chosen by the people, while Dalmasca is an autocratic region with a monarch free to act as they choose

Was Vayne elected,

Spoiler

or did he just pull a Palpatine and take emergency powers after the "Senate plot" was discovered.

Ashe's motivations aren't really any 'better' than anyone else's: In the end, yes, she wants to free her people, but her major drive is in fact her lust for revenge.

Funny thing,

Spoiler

she makes that decision based on Rasler being ' not one to take base revenge' while his last words were actually

For my father! FOR MY FAATHHHERRR!

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Just saying, that Archades is the one with a duly-elected ruler chosen by the people, while Dalmasca is an autocratic region with a monarch free to act as they choose, heedless of the people's wishes. You didn't see Ashe asking any Dalmascans what they thought, after all

#VayneWasRight

The past TWELVE emperors in Archadia have been from the Solidor family. Elected by the people or not, there's obviously been some shady shit being pulled behind the scenes to keep that family in power. *insert U.S. Congress/Senate/President joke here*

Just because Dalmasca and Nabradia were ruled by monarchs doesn't mean it's a bad style of governing. I'm sure the B'nargin and Heios families would have been overthrown if they gone full-Targaryen on their countries or something. That's just me being optimistic though.

I figured that was a Machiavelli style stunt where he deliberately appointed a brutal governor so he could look better by comparison when he took over.

Vayne says in the game, "I was kept waiting fully two years", which I sort of took as Gramis decided to keep him in Archades after the stunts he pulled with Nabradia and Dalmasca--because if Vayne's been after the Dynast King's relics all this time, why would he have waited two years to go to Rabanastre and continue the search in the palace?

Funny thing,

Spoiler

she makes that decision based on Rasler being ' not one to take base revenge' while his last words were actually

For my father! FOR MY FAATHHHERRR!

Spoiler

Well, unlike Dalmasca, Nabradia was literally obliterated off the face of Ivalice. There's only a few actual Nabradians still alive in the game, which are NPCs. Can you blame Rasler for wanting take back the last remaining fortress in his kingdom in his father's memory?

And I always took the 'base revenge' line as Ashe believing that Rasler wouldn't want to destroy an entire country and its people just because it had been done to him.

 

[Ghost X]

 

[JechtShotMK9]

Either that, or the Solidor family are just really good at their job. I mean, we are constantly beat over the head with how awesome Vayne and Larsa are. Blood always tells. Or something.

I dunno. I might be more sympathetic towards the Dalmascan royalty if Ashe had any tangible plans for peace besides "Imma get my Nethicite nuke, and use it to make me queen and everything will be super special awesome because I'm totally qualified for this and shut up." I believe Balthier even calls her out on this at one point, and all she can do is stare at him.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Either that, or the Solidor family are just really good at their job. I mean, we are constantly beat over the head with how awesome Vayne and Larsa are. Blood always tells. Or something.

I dunno. I might be more sympathetic towards the Dalmascan royalty if Ashe had any tangible plans for peace besides "Imma get my Nethicite nuke, and use it to make me queen and everything will be super special awesome because I'm totally qualified for this and shut up." I believe Balthier even calls her out on this at one point, and all she can do is stare at him.

Then by that reasoning, so could the B'nargin family.

Vayne is awesome in a large part because people fear him and what he's capable of. Larsa is awesome in a large part in that he is a Solidor who remains innocent and tries to maintain a peace without playing the game of thrones war or unnecessary fighting.

An what else would Ashe do (in the first few years of her reign anyway) besides rebuild her wartorn country from the Empire's takeover? I'm sure she would have long term plans of maintaining the peace, like setting up trade agreements/alliances or some shit like that, but realistically, why focus on that kind of stuff when her kingdom's not even free yet? Dalmasca has no army anymore, and has none of its former strength left, and it's only ally (Nabradia) was wiped off the map. Of course she's looking for suped up weapon by which she can defend the king and her claim to the throne with. I mean... it's really all she can do. Yeah, she could ally with Rozarria like Al-Cid wanted her to, but Rozarria wanted war just as much as Archadia did, and where were they when the two kingdoms were taken over?

 

[JechtShotMK9]

Ah, but we are shown that the Solidor's are fuckin' awesome. Everybody in the game acknowledges so, even those that hate them. I think the Archadian senate even refers to Vayne as "too competent" at some point.

Ashe, on the other hand, is depicted as this little angry girl who is totally out of her depth, and is such an insignificant nuisance that, at the big climactic confrontation, Vayne greets her with a "Welcome to the Bahamut. Who are you again?" Her resistance/insurgence is hilariously inept, Vossler, the only one with any sense, betrays her, and her own people seem perfectly content with Archadian rule once Vayne takes charge. The "Battle of Dalmasca" doesn't even have Dalmascans fighting in it, it's Ondore's doing.

Plus the whole "letting men do their thing instead of the gods dictating our lives thing" we Vayne was doing a perfectly good job of doing before Vaan decided to have a moment of plot relevance and stabbed him in the chest.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

Actually, and food for thought, Dalmasca is basically postwar Japan. Vayne is MacArthur, Archadia is the United States, Rozarria is Russia, and the country is in better shape during its occupation than it was when it was at war with the country that is currently occupying it.

And Old Archades totally looks kinda like the slums in New York.

 

[Fangu]

I think you need to remember how Dalmasca and Nabradia were once small, peaceful nations squeezed in between two larger countries. Nabradia was pretty much nuked and eaten by the Empire (by Cid's technology) while Dalmasca lost their king and country to a trick. They lost a large chunk of soldiers and civilians due to this 'nice man who comes to be nice to them'. Not sure how it qualifies to 'the people have it better' when all of them lost relatives and suffer losses from it and you're left with mostly old people and orphans.

Military smart man, aye. But the way he overtook Dalmasca was pretty deceitful. I understand how some might call it clever. I call it dirty fighting, completely ignoring any code of honour.

He never wanted Dalmasca for its people anyway, he just wanted it to creep up on the Rozarrian border.

Also I'd assume the Resistance plays some part in the final battle.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I think you need to remember how Dalmasca and Nabradia were once small, peaceful nations squeezed in between two larger countries. Nabradia was pretty much nuked and eaten by the Empire (by Cid's technology) while Dalmasca lost their king and country to a trick. They lost a large chunk of soldiers and civilians due to this 'nice man who comes to be nice to them'. Not sure how it qualifies to 'the people have it better' when all of them lost relatives and suffer losses from it and you're left with mostly old people and orphans.

Military smart man, aye. But the way he overtook Dalmasca was pretty deceitful. I understand how some might call it clever. I call it dirty fighting, completely ignoring any code of honour.

He never wanted Dalmasca for its people anyway, he just wanted it to creep up on the Rozarrian border.

Also I'd assume the Resistance plays some part in the final battle.

This. All of this.

THE MIGHTY FANGU HATH SPOKEN!

 

[Russell]

I know right?
I'm loving reading this thread.

2017 can't come fast enough.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Good article (that Fangu will appreciate, I'm sure): How "Final Fantasy XII" Was Ahead of its Time

 

[Fangu]

It has a few errors, but I enjoyed reading it

 

[lithiumkatana17]

A very good article. Read it a few weeks back. Still gives me a happy to read good things about XII.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

They're running an official survey on Final Fantasy's official Twitter page.

They have quite a few questions about FFXII in there.

If you get a chance, please fill it out.

Link is in the tweet.

https://twitter.com/FinalFantasy/status/760158201526439936

 

[Ghost X]

Done

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Yay Ghost!

And I didn't even have to offer you money or sexual favors.