Final Fantasy XV (was Versus XIII)

[T@ctic]

okay so guys....wtf just happened???? noctis is ugly and old??? i'm usually a mother bear when it comes to spoilers but i am so unbelievably bewildered right now i don't care if anyone explains to me now. WHAT HAPPENED
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oh i didn't see the replies, lol. yep i don't own any FF game and i have CC on my tablet. my brother has the game on PC though.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The passage of time happened.

No offense, but this "spectator's perspective" on FF games doesn't rub me the right way.

Why though? What's fundamentally wrong with absorbing the story of a game by watching a playthrough?



X

 

[Blade]

Why though? What's fundamentally wrong with absorbing the story of a game by watching a playthrough?

This thread should explain it in part, but the main idea is that sometimes you miss key things and experiences if you're not actually playing the game yourself, especially with RPGs.

Noctis is basically Fry from Futurama. And that's precisely why you should play the game yourself.

 

[T@ctic]

i finished the game last night. whew. that was the longest i ever spent watching a FF game besides maybe 9. am now absorbing my thoughts on what truly just happened. not only finishing XV but the whole franchise. i almost can't believe it.

i understand that time jump (i think?), but i'm so salty over it like i haven't been in a long time. XV is probably the FF game i an least looking forward to play even if i could because it's so freaking huge, i'd get lost doing side missions alone lol

 

[Lulcielid]

This thread should explain it in part, but the main idea is that sometimes you miss key things and experiences if you're not actually playing the game yourself, especially with RPGs.

Noctis is basically Fry from Futurama. And that's precisely why you should play the game yourself.

To add to this, as an analogy, reading the script of a movie is not the same as watching the movie.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As a counter to that, though, just watching gameplay videos of FFXV made me fall so in love with it that I built the lore archive.

(Which I really need to find time to update.)

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It depends what era of FF game you're talking about and what aspect of the game you're talking about as well. The modern FF games play and look and feel very different then the older ones do. And the stories of the early FF games (and many of the "newer" ones) is mostly told in script format. There's very little difference between reading a script of oh... FFV and watching all the non-gameplay cut scenes of FFV. The main difference is, one has sprites on a screen and one doesn't. The different grows a tad when the Fixed PoV FF games comes and then grows even more when the 3rd-person PoV games come.

And the biggest draw of the FF games (for most people) is their story. That's the main reason people want to play those games. Final Fantasy style gameplay (most of the time) could fit into any other FF game and nothing would really change about the game. All you'd have to do is switch up the lore reasoning behind the battle system and it'd be good to go. Like, you could give FFXIII the Armiger system and FFXV the Materia System and nothing would really change story-wise.

But the biggest difference (or non-difference) comes down to how well the individual person is at imagining what is being represented by the game world. If you're good at extrapolating what kind of things go on in a party or how diffent individuals act around each other when the camera "isn't watching" (or is in a gamplay segment that has no story impact) you really don't need gameplay to confirm that that is what's happening or to form an emotional connection to the characters. The game not being specific about that kind of stuff is what has spawned a thousand fan-fics exploring what was going on between X and Y major plot-points.

I'm actually kinda sad that FFXV goes and takes all those "unspecified interactions" away from the player by having the main party having conversations in the background. Like... I get that most people tend to think that if no character interaction happens "on camera" then it didn't happen "off camera" either. But why does the game have to be this specific about how everyone reacts to things?

And why make it so auditory? Okay... mini rant time... I play video games so I can get away from the stress of people constantly giving commentary on what's going on around them and making small talk. And that's a part of FFXV combat that a lot of people like. Yeah. I look at how the FFXV gameplay sounds while fighting and it's pretty much the deffinition of a constant high-stress environment for me. FFXIII had some of it, but it wasn't this constant. Even then I basicly wanted the characters to shut up and stop breaking my concentration on what was going on. Why yes, I did turn the sound off for FFXIII when grinding... Long story short, I take one look at FFXV's combat and it's like... nope, I see my self getting too irritated with the combat environment in it. And in FF games, combat is the main way you interact with the game-world. If you don't like the combat, you're not going to have a fun time playing the game... end rant...

If you suspect you're not going to have fun with the main way of interacting with a game, why play it? This is esspecially true for story-heavy games like FF games are as nine times out of ten, the gameplay doesn't have anything to do with the story. It's the gameplay vehicle that gets you from point A to point B. You might as well save yourself a headache and watch someone else (who's hopefully enjoying themselves) play the actual gameplay. You can usually find the cut-scenes or a story synopsis on the internet nowadays.

This is even more of an issue now that there's tons of great games out. There's no way to play them all in full. You might as well do your research and see if you really want to sink time into a game that you don't know if you're going to like. And if you don't think you'll like the gameplay, you can still get the story of it. This is why I do play FFXIV and Monster Hunter: World and Mark of the Ninja and The Last Remnent. I looked at the gameplay of all of those games and knew they were something I would proably enjoy doing. It's also why I'll never re-play FFIX or FFXIII. I can't stand those battle systems. One of those games' stories is a lot better put together then the other one is, and I'll always be glad I got to watch FFXI's cut-scenes and story. I'm not sure it's worth all the frustrations I had playing FFIX though. FFXIII's story definetly wasn't worth slogging though its combat system.

And speaking of story... I am starting to get annoyed with the single-player FF game's overall plots as it is. Ever since FFX, the major plots of FFX, FFXII, FFXIII and FFXV can be summed up as "end of the old god's order (because it isn't good for humanity)" often with a "sacrificing a player character" conclusion. One look at FFXV's story and it like... we're doing this again? Why should I get attached to any of these guys? The FF games up to FFX were pretty unpredictable in what kind of plot they would be. They aren't now. I'd be a lot more open to playing the next single-player FF game if it didn't have yet another variation of the "end of the old god's order" plot.

And yes, I'm not counting FFXI and FFXIV because they are MMOs. For one thing, the PC can't die. I also don't know enough about FFXI's plot. FFXIV's plot is still up in the air as there's good evidence that "ending the old god's order" would end existence as we know it. And at least one of the gods wants existence to keep existing... And the FFXIV lore/story team has a good track record of turning old FF tropes/plots on their heads as opposed to just copying them wholesale....

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not sure I agree with your summary of all those plotlines, Obsidian. FFX was more like FFTactics -- i.e. it wasn't about ending the old gods' Order of Things so much as it was about breaking the hold of a human institution's power structure that drew its authority from a false god.

Meanwhile, FFXV was precisely the opposite of defying the old gods' order. Which was actually somewhat frustrating since its gods are kind of douchey.

Fan frustration with that is probably why we're getting an alternate universe DLC next year in which Noctis does defy the gods instead.

 

[Ryuman]

Yeah the Gods absolutely suck and it's never really brought into question. I personally really enjoy deity-defying tropes and would've enjoyed invoking something like that here. Though in all honesty it's not like they could fit a twist like that in. Still, it really feels like Bahamut should be held accountable for... something.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

okay so guys....wtf just happened???? noctis is ugly and old??? i'm usually a mother bear when it comes to spoilers but i am so unbelievably bewildered right now i don't care if anyone explains to me now. WHAT HAPPENED

The developers actually based his 'ugly and old' appearance on the subtleties within the facial expressions of war veterans. I'm rather fond of the John Wick look. Noctis aged rather quickly, yes, but let's not forget that he's seen some shit, his appearance will reflect that.

As a counter to that, though, just watching gameplay videos of FFXV made me fall so in love with it that I built the lore archive.

(Which I really need to find time to update.)

I could argue that you are a special case.

Let me know if you would like any help with it btw.

 

[Tetsujin]

okay so guys....wtf just happened???? noctis is ugly and old???

Dude looks more handsome like that tbh, also he's only 30

I'm surprised at the surprise though...I mean, John Wick!Noctis is literally the first thing you see in the game because Tabata decided to have a pointless in medias res opening.

 

[Blade]

As a counter to that, though, just watching gameplay videos of FFXV made me fall so in love with it that I built the lore archive.

Like lithiumkatana17 said (beating me to it) you ARE a special case, Tres.

As for the whole discussion on whether or not you want human interaction in a game about human interaction... that's... uh... entirely dependent on the style of game it is.

Like, if you don't like games where there's chatter going on, you might want to play a Legend of Zelda game where there is next to no verbal language dialogue. Heck, even games like Okami are pretty much jibberish rather than actual language or speech, and they are mostly in instances where you decidedly TALK TO characters rather than having them yack at you unbidden.

Games with party members to talk away and make a quest more colorful are for us more "lonely gamers" who don't have as much "human interaction" as normal people do. That kinda goes for dating sims too, but I digress.

And by the way, if you're the type who hates "battles/random encounters" and prefer stories, I have two words for you: VISUAL NOVELS.

 

[Claymore]

Late to the party but ...

I mean, it is hard to deny that the very nature and medium of videogames is a connection which is fundamentally meant to be experienced via physically being involved in it - by playing it. It's entire core as a medium lies within this interactivity. Certainly, you can form a bond and understand enough of the subject matter by simply watching someone else play a videogame, but it is only when you yourself experience it: when you choose what path to take in a world, when you practice and execute those moves, when you personally choose what to power up and what to hold back on, when you immerse yourself within both the story and the world ... that a game truly comes alive.

These are all intricate layers crafted between the player and the game, and indeed, the player and the unfolding story. Simply put, there is a ceiling limit that you can get by simply watching a videogame, but it is only by experiencing and playing a game yourself that you can completely absorb and become immersed within it.

That is the beauty of this medium.


P.S

And yes, Tres is definitely a special case.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@The Twilight Mexican Yeah, it would probably be more accurate to say "end of the old supernaturally backed order" then just "end of the old gods' order". I'm much more willing to give FFX and FFXII a pass as FFX was the first one to do that type of plot, so it doesn't really count and FFXII had a very different story team then FFX, FFXIII and FFXV had. And none of the player characters end up getting sacrificed in the end of that one either.

It's FFXIII and FFXV that really bug me. You've got the same idea of god's wars effecting humans and then using humans to clean up after themselves. Only FFXIII has the humans ultimately rebel against the gods so they can save the world and FFXV has humans go along with the gods so they can save the world. Now granted, part of the probably comes from the two games at one time using similar source material. Which makes SE making a DLC so that FFXV can have the same type of ending FFXIII did (thematically) sadly hilarious. I just wished they'd messed a little more with FFXV's plot to make the overarching theme of it not so similar to FFXIII's.

I hope that the next single-player non-remake FF game does something completely different with it's plot, as that's the part I feel that's been lagging the most in the main FF games. The characters are great. The settings are georgeous. The battle systems are interesting enough. But the plot? Finding out why the characters are doing what they are doing has given me the most bad WTF? moments in the recent single-player FF games.

 

[Lulcielid]

@The Twilight Mexican Yeah, it would probably be more accurate to say "end of the old supernaturally backed order" then just "end of the old gods' order". I'm much more willing to give FFX and FFXII a pass as FFX was the first one to do that type of plot, so it doesn't really count and FFXII had a very different story team then FFX, FFXIII and FFXV had. And none of the player characters end up getting sacrificed in the end of that one either.

What's so different about the story team of XII compared to X, XIII & XV?

 

[lithiumkatana17]

These are all intricate layers crafted between the player and the game, and indeed, the player and the unfolding story. Simply put, there is a ceiling limit that you can get by simply watching a videogame, but it is only by experiencing and playing a game yourself that you can completely absorb and become immersed within it.

Exactly. Like I was enthralled with the story of Far Cry 5 while watching Mr. Lith play it, but now playing through it myself is an entirely different case. I can't wait to move on to God of War (which I refused to let my husband play without me there lolol).

What's so different about the story team of XII compared to X, XIII & XV?

Oh boy, time for me to put my repository of worthless knowledge, aka my BRAIN, to good use!

It's different because the gods (aka The Occuria) do not involve themselves with the affairs of men. They simply gave Ashe (and previously Raithwall) the tools to accomplish tasks that fit within their agenda. Venat broke away and wanted to give mankind knowledge to control their own destiny, and was branded a heretic. In a sense, Venat is the 'good' Occuria; she just aligned herself with the wrong people.

Yu Yevon in X - lives inside Sin, directly influences the destiny of Spira and all who live there.
The fal'Cie in XIII - forces people into servitude by branding them into l'Cie, giving them a Focus to accomplish their agendas because the fal'Cie are bound
Astrals in XV - Gentiana speaks to the people for the Gods, Luna speaks to the Gods for the people; in the Ancient Era Ifrit and Bahamut literally scarred the very earth (Taelpar Crag), Shiva's frozen corpse is still in Gralea, Titan was still in the Disc of Cauthess at one point... And then the whole entire 'Chosen King to bring the Light and end the Scourge forever'... see what I'm saying? These gods are still very much involved in the affairs of men, albeit only when they want to be, or deem it necessary.

In XII, the Occuria's influence is very, very minimal. They use hallucinations of Rasler to push Ashe in the direction they want her to go, but we as the player don't even know that until the very end of the game. We don't even really know about the existence of 'gods' until we're almost at the very end.

 

[Lulcielid]

My question was not what makes the story of XII different but what makes the story team (aka the writers) of XII different than the other 3?

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Yeah, this is the part where I feel like a twat.

Thank you for attending my educational TED-talk.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

My question was not what makes the story of XII different but what makes the story team (aka the writers) of XII different than the other 3?

I don't know to what extent this may have influenced differences and similarities (or if this is what Obsidian was referring to), but there were mostly different people in the lead development roles.

XII does have Daisuke Watanabe's involvement in writing in common with X and XIII, but otherwise you don't see the extent of overlap that exists among X, XIII, and XV; i.e. there are several writers, directors and producers who worked on more than one of them. Also, Kazushige Nojima -- who was X's lead writer -- provided the outline for XIII and XV.

 

[Blade]

As far as I understand things... having played everything EXCEPT the MMORPGs, Final Fantasy games have this pro-human standard that basically is intended to make humans look like the heroes from the perspective of the player.

We have yet to have a proper FF game where the FF "lead player character" plays the role of a villain.

Granted there's a few backstory moments where the protagonists realize they made mistakes (i.e. Lightning realizing she was a sinner in Etro's perspective for killing humans who were after her own life), but on the whole the characters controlled by the player (that's YOU and ME) are typically portrayed as the heroes of the story.

The heroes of the story right all the wrongs and triumph over "evil".

This is a long-standing trope in Roleplaying videogames, it's intended to make the player feel GOOD because they beat the GAME and saved the day.

I can see how this would become utterly boring to some people... which is why there's games like Disgaea and "What did I do to Deserve this, My Lord?" as well as anime like OverLord where the "protagonist" is actually a "villain" in their own right.

 

[Lulcielid]

Steamdatabase added yesterday an new (unknown) DLC file to FFXV Windows Edition

1 day and 14 hours to go until the special anniversary streaming.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

X

 

[Theozilla]

Holy shit, I just saw this on twitter. And they are canceling the Aranea, Lunafreya, and Noctis DLC too. Guess those aborted cancelations partially explain the $33 million loss announced earlier https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/da...nous-productions-studio-for-aaa-games/.139179

 

[X-SOLDIER]

 

[X-SOLDIER]