Final Fantasy XV (was Versus XIII)

Ryuman

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Pointlessname, Pointer
I would personally always recommend a release order for anything anyway. But, yeah, some of the XV DLC has main game spoilers (Particularly Ignis and Ardyn) so I wouldn't bother trying to work out some kind of chronology for going through them. Just work down it like a list.

Main game->Gladio->Prompto->Ignis->Ardyn OVA->Ardyn
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
....Why the fuck did they cancel the DLCs if they were gonna keep the XV torch alive and merchandise this shit to a damn mobile game?

This is ridiculous and fucked up. The cancellation of the promised DLCs now makes even less sense, since it's apparent they intend to keep burning through XV and have more stories to tell with it. It now looks like they only wanted a more blatant, profitable games-as-service cash grab and simply didn't feel like investing resources and time to develop for consoles, which was what was the intended vision of the developers.

So, at least they're now somewhat honest with wanting to crap on XV, and just shove their blood-funnel into our faces for cash :monster:
 

Glaurung

Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
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Mama Dragon
....Why the fuck did they cancel the DLCs if they were gonna keep the XV torch alive and merchandise this shit to a damn mobile game?

This is ridiculous and fucked up. The cancellation of the promised DLCs now makes even less sense, since it's apparent they intend to keep burning through XV and have more stories to tell with it. It now looks like they only wanted a more blatant, profitable games-as-service cash grab and simply didn't feel like investing resources and time to develop for consoles, which was what was the intended vision of the developers.

So, at least they're now somewhat honest with wanting to crap on XV, and just shove their blood-funnel into our faces for cash :monster:

Milking the cow, even if its incomplete :/

One solution would be not investing a dime on this one. Who are those people between Luna and Libertus? New characters and they leave Glauca out (yet again)?

Jokes aside, I never trust ResetEra as a general rule. Might be legit, might be not, but this image looks fake af. Maybe it's just me, but they all look like modded characters.
 
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Ryuman

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Pointlessname, Pointer
It's an app that has been developed for China since 2017, it probably is of no consequence to them and isn't worth cancelling. Besides, it's not as if this is a new low for XV or something, lol
 

Volvatta

Sincerity-Genuinity & Comedy
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Crazy-Sane
I'm not excited one bit... The hype for XV was great when they were showcasing the entire compilation on stages. The movie FFXVKG, the Anime, the game itself, the minigame Platinum Demo..all that shit. It was awesome! I was thrilled. A New Empire is bullsh*t . All those seperatly sold canon releases was exilerating to see because it felt i had much to explore and expérience in different entertainment styles. It didn't flow they way i thought it would've... It became monotonous...I only watched the movie and anime and played a bit of XV Royal Édition. Even though I LOVE final fantasy, by the time i got the game i heard so much of it and the spoilers ruined it for me and i did't even feel the need to play it through....the only FF i just stopped playing. Over Years i lost interest slowly. And now there's a new mobile game by whoever and blah blah. Not to offend anyone but jeesh we don't need it. All od thw DLC and the stuff cancelled after Ardyn's story i just gave up.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
I want to ask a serious question.

What is the functional difference between XV and Versus XIII?

I don't mean the plot differences from one game being connected to the FNC, one having Stella Nox, or one game having the Mafia-esque plot versus the other.

I mean functionally, what were the gameplay/realization differences between Versus XIII or XV? One example I know of, is Versus XIII having urban combat and exploration of Insomnia which was mostly lacking in XV. At least until the Royal Edition.

The reason I ask this seriously, is because I am perplexed about why Nomura is going so hard with trying to re-create VsXIII in Kingdom Hearts. What could Nomura have missed or found lacking in XV's execution, that he wishes to recreate from this unrealized game from over 15 years ago? What is driving him so intensely to bluntly and awkwardly shoehorn this unrealized project into another?

Anyone with more experience or knowledge of Versus XIII's development could maybe answer this because it frankly, baffles me. What does Nomura want to do? Why can't he simply let these concepts and aesthetics go?

XV and Versus XIII are truly the most Final Fantasy entries of all. They are ephemeral, fantastical and their full potential literally only exist in fantasy.

It's a fantasy based on reality, but never seen in reality.
 

Volvatta

Sincerity-Genuinity & Comedy
AKA
Crazy-Sane
I mean functionally, what were the gameplay/realization differences between Versus XIII or XV? One example I know of, is Versus XIII having urban combat and exploration of Insomnia which was mostly lacking in XV. At least until the Royal Edition.
Unless you inquire about this to the employees of Square-Enix at the time who were working on the game's battle machanics and/or Nomura himself, it's hard to accuratly say. Although, with the little Versus XIII footage that we have, we could closely analize it and make a hypothesis on what he was aiming for rouphly considering it was still in development when that footage was presented to us.

So you could do that or seek out the one's who were there making it. Best answer i can come up with, someone else with more knowledge may have an answer more fitting than mine. Mine's more of an observational reply than an answer ^_^
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
Unless you inquire about this to enployees of Square-Enix at the time who were working on the game's battle machanics and/or Nomura himself it's hard to accuratly say. Although, with the little Versus XIII footage that we have, we could closely analize and make hypothesis on what he was aiming for rouphly considering it was still in development when that footage was presented to us.

So you could do that or seek out the one's who were there making it. Best answer i can come up with, someone else with more knowledge may have an answer more fitting than mine. Mine's more of an observational reply than an answer ^_^
Well from what I remember of the trailers and gameplay, the final product of Final Fantasy XV is pretty similar to Versus XIII circa 2013, minus some dynamic camera angles, cut-away shots of awesomeness, and I suppose, more freedom for aerial combat? Noctis can warp and hang freely anywhere it would seem, but who knows how real that is.

With that in mind, that doesn't seem substantive enough to have Nomura wish to rehash the entire damn game and re-do it from scratch, only transplanting Noctis with Yozora and the setting with Kingdom Heart's.

Going way back to when Versus XIII was in development for the PS3, the gameplay looked more heavily influenced by Kingdom Hearts but that was back in 2011. Why would he be focused on that? Literally everything he's done in Kingdom Hearts since then, has surpassed what was shown back then. The Toy Box world's Gigas combat that let you enter them and fight, is clearly inspired by the Versus XIII gameplay mechanic of hijacking Nifelheim Magitek Armors, and using them to fight back with.

It just simply makes no sense why he has this much of an obsession with this setting/aesthetic/idea. Is it about Noctis himself? Does Nomura feel like he was stolen from him? If that's the case, take him back. Tabata's gone. He could easily include Noctis in Kingdom Hearts as his own iteration of the character, and no one would care. I just, don't see the logic at all.
 

Volvatta

Sincerity-Genuinity & Comedy
AKA
Crazy-Sane
Well from what I remember of the trailers and gameplay, the final product of Final Fantasy XV is pretty similar to Versus XIII circa 2013, minus some dynamic camera angles, cut-away shots of awesomeness, and I suppose, more freedom for aerial combat? Noctis can warp and hang freely anywhere it would seem, but who knows how real that is.

With that in mind, that doesn't seem substantive enough to have Nomura wish to rehash the entire damn game and re-do it from scratch, only transplanting Noctis with Yozora and the setting with Kingdom Heart's.

Going way back to when Versus XIII was in development for the PS3, the gameplay looked more heavily influenced by Kingdom Hearts but that was back in 2011. Why would he be focused on that? Literally everything he's done in Kingdom Hearts since then, has surpassed what was shown back then. The Toy Box world's Gigas combat that let you enter them and fight, is clearly inspired by the Versus XIII gameplay mechanic of hijacking Nifelheim Magitek Armors, and using them to fight back with.

It just simply makes no sense why he has this much of an obsession with this setting/aesthetic/idea. Is it about Noctis himself? Does Nomura feel like he was stolen from him? If that's the case, take him back. Tabata's gone. He could easily include Noctis in Kingdom Hearts as his own iteration of the character, and no one would care. I just, don't see the logic at all.
You're opinion ressonates with me entirely on 95% of you're post here. Seems as if he's holdig on to something most deffinetely.

But i will say, I'm not content in quouting that he's trying to make it identical to Versus XIII, and you can say that - yes - he has surpassed this with the latter games released that he'd worked on. I think he even had much to do with the 'awesomeness' that was taken out that you mentioned and maybe that's another thing he's holding resentment (non-threateningly) about these alterationes that had been made.

Brilliant solutioun though with the whole bringing Noct in, and having him be the original visioned Noct that he intented him to be.

Nomura is doing his thing and it's a blend of reasons of which i don't understand. But hey, maybe we'll get something out of his efforts even rho we scratch our heads.

With the people wanting a Versus XIII release and all that shit, i understand, i personally love Stella more than ever, we aint gonna see it. Nomura probably didn't even have the entire story 100% complète anyhow.
 

Ryuman

Pro Adventurer
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Pointlessname, Pointer
I can't speak for Nomura, but I can speak as someone who followed Versus for a long time. Trying to learn more about the project than someone probably should and reading a multitude of interviews, it doesn't seem that hard to understand his headspace.

First off, is it not surprising that someone would in any way be disappointed if a project they had a significant role in forming was handed off to someone else? Even if most of the details were the same, it's still something that was taken away from you. And that's just if the project went through minimal changes. I think it's fair to say the shift from Nomura to Tabata was at least a little more drastic than that. It's clear that the change in directors wasn't as amicable as Square want you to believe it was. Some of his earliest comments on the subject were non-answers and stressing that it was the company's decision. During the Kingdom Hearts 2.5 launch event in December of 2014 (One year after Tabata officially becoming director internally; three months after the public announcement and re-re-reveal) he explained that there had been a lot going on in his life during that past year and he had gotten pet cats to help him out of the slump caused by it. Not really hard to figure out what he was referring to. Things didn't seem to be that much better company-wide, as evidenced by Nomura himself, who claimed Versus XIII was at some point a taboo phrase internally during a Dissidia stream late last year.

You might find it silly, but if you're in that position where you spend a great deal of time working hard on something you're probably bound to form a kind of attachment. In this case it seemed to have been rather strong. Even if your interpretation of the ordeal is that he was too wishy-washy and unfocused to get things done properly, you can't really deny that it must have been many years of stressful work regardless. It was his only other project that he was purely the director of aside from the Kingdom Hearts series, and he actually considered Sora and Noctis to be sons of his, in a way.

KH and Versus go hand in hand, actually. During the days of Dream Drop Distance development he was keen to discuss the kind of relationship the two had. Ideas that didn't work in one went in to the other, and there was a sense of friendly rivalry between the teams. It's not really surprising that it ultimately ended up feeding back into KH this way. Had things gone differently, you'd probably see Noctis in a KH game now. But that's the thing. Noctis isn't really his character anymore. It's out of his hands. The first time he made any illustration and significant mention of Noctis post-removal was Dissidia Arcade/NT, not something he could really avoid. He's probably far removed from Noctis as a character at this point.

Even though there is a lot I think I could say, this post is getting a little too lengthy for my liking. Not to mention my sleep is lacking atm and a lot of the things I'm pulling out from my dusty mental closet have been slowly escaping my brain as I wrote this. So I don't really feel capable of doing a closer examination that would be structured and read well. Maybe another time. What's most important to keep in mind is that Yozora isn't really Noctis, and no matter how blatantly Nomura alludes to Versus/XV, the final application will be themes and concepts applied in a way that works with the Kingdom Hearts universe and the direction Nomura wishes to take it in.
 
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Lulcielid

Media Thinker
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Lucis Caelum
Things didn't seem to be that much better company-wide, as evidenced by Nomura himself, who claimed Versus XIII was at some point a taboo phrase internally during a Dissidia stream late last year.
This doesn't make sense when both developers used the phrase both before the game released and after and his comment was more like a tongue in cheek joke because the Dissidia staff decided to put the Versus Noctis outfit in Dissidia.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I can't speak for Nomura, but I can speak as someone who followed Versus for a long time. Trying to learn more about the project than someone probably should and reading a multitude of interviews, it doesn't seem that hard to understand his headspace.

First off, is it not surprising that someone would in any way be disappointed if a project they had a significant role in forming was handed off to someone else? Even if most of the details were the same, it's still something that was taken away from you. And that's just if the project went through minimal changes. I think it's fair to say the shift from Nomura to Tabata was at least a little more drastic than that. It's clear that the change in directors wasn't as amicable as Square want you to believe it was. Some of his earliest comments on the subject were non-answers and stressing that it was the company's decision. During the Kingdom Hearts 2.5 launch event in December of 2014 (One year after Tabata officially becoming director internally; three months after the public announcement and re-re-reveal) he explained that there had been a lot going on in his life during that past year and he had gotten pet cats to help him out of the slump caused by it. Not really hard to figure out what he was referring to. Things didn't seem to be that much better company-wide, as evidenced by Nomura himself, who claimed Versus XIII was at some point a taboo phrase internally during a Dissidia stream late last year.
First off, thank you for sharing this info, some of that I wasn't aware of.

You might find it silly, but if you're in that position where you spend a great deal of time working hard on something you're probably bound to form a kind of attachment. In this case it seemed to have been rather strong. Even if your interpretation of the ordeal is that he was too wishy-washy and unfocused to get things done properly, you can't really deny that it must have been many years of stressful work regardless. It was his only other project that he was purely the director of aside from the Kingdom Hearts series, and he actually considered Sora and Noctis to be sons of his, in a way.

KH and Versus go hand in hand, actually. During the days of Dream Drop Distance development he was keen to discuss the kind of relationship the two had. Ideas that didn't work in one went in to the other, and there was a sense of friendly rivalry between the teams. It's not really surprising that it ultimately ended up feeding back into KH this way. Had things gone differently, you'd probably see Noctis in a KH game now. But that's the thing. Noctis isn't really his character anymore. It's out of his hands. The first time he made any illustration and significant mention of Noctis post-removal was Dissidia Arcade/NT, not something he could really avoid. He's probably far removed from Noctis as a character at this point.
I knew Versus was a close and sore subject for Nomura, but I wasn't aware that he felt that embedded and attached to it. Describing Sora and Noctis as his son's... Wow. That's an incredible statement of ownership and attachment. If there's that much emotional investment in the subject, then I am completely unsurprised at his unrelenting determination to keep revisiting these concepts.

It's totally understandable that Nomura would have that much emotional attachment to Versus XIII, but just objectively speaking, it's holding him back creatively. The fact he keeps rehashing and revisiting this concept over and over after a decade is almost like ghost that's haunting him. Since it's clear he's finally able to now relive this ambition through Kingdom Hearts, maybe he'll find closure and put up something good for KH with it. But I'm somewhat skeptical.

But thank you for that explanation.

Even though there is a lot I think I could say, this post is getting a little too lengthy for my liking. Not to mention my sleep is lacking atm and a lot of the things I'm pulling out from my dusty mental closet have been slowly escaping my brain as I wrote this. So I don't really feel capable of doing a closer examination that would be structured and read well. Maybe another time. What's most important to keep in mind is that Yozora isn't really Noctis, and no matter how blatantly Nomura alludes to Versus/XV, the final application will be themes and concepts applied in a way that works with the Kingdom Hearts universe and the direction Nomura wishes to take it in.
Anymore you can think of would be appreciated. It is interesting to know.

And while you believe the final application of these Versus XIII/Yozora concepts will be applied to KH in a consistent and workable way, I have doubts given what Versus XIII supposedly was. The mature themes of the story/concept don't fit with KH. Diluting them takes away the entire charm and premise of Versus XIII in the first place. Without it, they just become reused visuals and aesthetics we've seen before for years. I mean, that's cool Nomura would get to use said aesthetics his way, but what would it be offering beyond that?

Gameplay wise, we've seen the concepts of Versus XIII implemented all throughout Kingdom Hearts and FFXV. They're not new or novel anymore. So, yeah. I just simply don't see the point from a gameplay perspective. Versus XIII's unused concepts are purely storyline and thematic now.
 

Ryuman

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pointlessname, Pointer
This doesn't make sense when both developers used the phrase both before the game released and after and his comment was more like a tongue in cheek joke because the Dissidia staff decided to put the Versus Noctis outfit in Dissidia.
I couldn't really tell you if it was a purely a joke or not, but it did come off as a little strange in the stream itself lol. It might have been different for how/when Tabata and some others were allowed to discuss it with the public, or perhaps it was just a passive aggressive move by Nomura. But I think it's still worth considering that there was some kind of tension within SE about it.

I mean- it was a very critical situation. the game had languished around for years. Now, this is a detail I'm somewhat hesitant about because it really is just internet hearsay, but I think it comes from a somewhat credible place. Apparently there was some kind of issue with Versus from it's very core foundation. Something that apparently affected the fun of the game and was a consistent hurdle for the team and held them back from going full steam ahead with the game. Again, this is just forum hearsay, but what I can tell you for real is that the game did have troubles. And not just the resource splitting and engine woes that people tend to talk about over and over.

By 2012 dev struggles came to a head when Yoichi Wada discussed the situation with the then unaffiliated Hajime Tabata. Apparently the issues where bad enough that Wada had asked for his opinion on cancelling the game altogether (Edge Magazine #314). It was then, according to Tabata himself, that he suggested taking on the game and seeing it through. His own team was aware of the situation and was initially completely apprehensive of joining Nomura's. It took Tabata 6 months to simultaneously get the team on board and establish the core themes i.e. Comrades that they wanted to carry into the game. As we all know, he was successful and together with his team (then acting as co-director to Nomura) they created the gameplay prototype that we saw in E3 2013.
 
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youffie

Pro Adventurer
I swear I would pay good money to have a documentary of this mess.

When FFXV dropped, I saw some posts on Roberto Ferrari's page where he vaguely voiced some displeasure at how the new team had dealt with the previous one, though he was very diplomatic about it and all "congratulations for delivering the game!". I imagine it was much worse for Nomura and I can't blame him, though I don't really blame Tabata either.

I also remember reading that thing about how mentioning Versus was a taboo. "Passive aggressive" is definitely the vibe I got, lol. It's not like he can go fully aggressive on it, even if he wanted to.
 

Ryuman

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Pointlessname, Pointer
I swear I would pay good money to have a documentary of this mess.

When FFXV dropped, I saw some posts on Roberto Ferrari's page where he vaguely voiced some displeasure at how the new team had dealt with the previous one, though he was very diplomatic about it and all "congratulations for delivering the game!". I imagine it was much worse for Nomura and I can't blame him, though I don't really blame Tabata either.
Yes, I remember watching that unfold in real time on his Facebook. It's a shame that in the end he nuked all the posts, because he was being very open and insightful. It was copied online obviously, but I have trouble remembering now whether all of it made it or not. That was the moment someone posted a leaked design for Human Umbra, much to the surprise of Ferrari. To my knowledge that leak was never traced. Officially released images of him exist now, but that specific design art is still a mystery.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
Ha, so he did delete some posts! I vaguely remembered there being more, but when I went looking for those recently I basically found only one post about the postgame credits (it was mostly in Italian, so I guess he figured no one would care anyway). He hasn't posted much the last few years, hopefully we'll get a few insights when the remake releases.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Ha, so he did delete some posts! I vaguely remembered there being more, but when I went looking for those recently I basically found only one post about the postgame credits (it was mostly in Italian, so I guess he figured no one would care anyway). He hasn't posted much the last few years, hopefully we'll get a few insights when the remake releases.
I'm curious. Among his deleted posts you saw, do you remember ever seeing artwork of his such as these pieces here?

This discussion has really made me start looking at some of the info that existed on Versus XIII because this is like... A rabbit hole of lost information and unrealized potential regarding an unused concept/story. And it's so weird because it existed during a time I was peak into FF so I find it so fascinating to see how much changed and what would have been compared to what ended up as a synthesis of the original concepts and Tabata's own take on the story and draft concept. And God, I fucking remember hearing about Final Fantasy Haeresis XIII... What the hell happened to THAT???

Reading this master post of all the material that was released on Versus XIII is fucking wow. Like, there was so much that was meant to be included that either got scrapped, changed, left alone, or diminished in relevancy. Like, I can't believe such a huge project was enacted yet not properly managed. I'm gonna read through these interviews again to see because this is as close to a documentary on Versus XIII as one can get. It's fucking intense how much there was to this yet it never even came to be.

I sorta can see now how Nomura would carry this huge fixation on this project after holding it for years.. Like a ghost holding onto its attachment to something. Yet, I definitely can see the burden and heavy lifting Tabata had to carry in making something get born from all of this, that could be a game which could be released in time.

...And then I found this post here. Which I have not seen before. It's apparently the final outline of what Versus XIII's story would have been before it was changed to Tabata's vision and made XV. And holy fucking shit. This is far more detailed than anything I read before. Has anyone heard of this before?

If anyone hasn't read that before, you should because it's fascinating as hell. And I don't know what to think of it. I'm sorta ambivalent on it. One one hand that sounds really fascinating and something I certainly would have enjoyed, maybe more than the overall story of XV. However, I found the way XV used Ardyn's character and development far more appealing than how they used him here in Versus XIII. I think his development in XV did him a far greater service than VsXIII would have. Same for Noctis, I believe. But overall the use of the FNC mythos sounds fascinating.

@Ryuman have you heard of this draft of the story before? Can you comment on if it's real or likely?
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
I do remember the images, but unfortunately I can't be sure where I actually saw them the first time. I don't think I saw them on his Facebook page at the time, though. It was probably at a later time, when I got curious about the whole story (ironically, I didn't really care about Versus XIII at the time, though now I'm definitely curious). But as I said, I can't be sure.

I also find all of this extremely fascinating but it's really, really hard to distinguish between fact and pure hearsay. I had read that post you linked and I would also like to know how likely people think it is. I also remember reading a very detailed article on the development process that seemed to actually know what it was talking about ("seemed" is the key word here), but if I'm not mistaken it was an Italian translation of a French article and I have no idea if someone translated it into English. I might try to look it up later.

All of this reminds me of one comment I read on Ferrari's page, about how so many people have said so many things on Versus and FFXV, and even its development, that even if he told his version of the story it would just one truth among many others. It's true, but unfortunately it also makes it all even more fascinating.
 
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