Final Fantasy XVI

#26
Which is exactly why another sword-wielder will preclude, to me, that nothing is going to change. It is going to be the exact same story repackaged differently. To me personally, that is an immediate red flag.
But being a sword-wielder has never been an indicator of sameness in the franchise before, so why treat it as one now? Like FFVI and FFVII were very different from each other despite both the main leads Terra (or Celes) and Cloud using swords. Or like others have said FFX was really different from the franchise in general yet Tidus also used a sword.
Like I am personally not against FF forgoing the “lead protagonist uses a sword” standard, I’m more just befuddled by idea that the continuing of said standard is a good indicator to judge how engaging/interesting a story/game/etc. will be.
 
#27
But being a sword-wielder has never been an indicator of sameness in the franchise before, so why treat it as one now? Like FFVI and FFVII were very different from each other despite both the main leads Terra (or Celes) and Cloud using swords. Or like others have said FFX was really different from the franchise in general yet Tidus also used a sword.
Like I am personally not against FF forgoing the “lead protagonist uses a sword” standard, I’m more just befuddled by idea that the continuing of said standard is a good indicator to judge how engaging/interesting a story/game/etc. will be.
Like I said, it's a continuing symptom of a bigger problem within the franchise and the genre. I want to be wowed and excited by the spectacle of a FF game, and that means forgoing all the similarities and tropes and doing something really special and unique.

Don't take this literally. I'm not saying a game can't ever be good if it has a sword wielding hero. I'm saying that the chances are it will lead to those aforementioned issues. From the setting to the characters to the gameplay. XIV notwithstanding as I haven't played it, I haven't been impressed with FF for a very long time. Alongside the setting, this is a good indicator that it won't be doing anything special for me personally.
 

Makoeyes987

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Smooth Criminal
#29
There's literally like nothing they could do that would easily please any majority segment of the audience, in terms of sticking to some arbitrary scenario setting, so they should simply do whatever they feel inspired by, do it with passion and do it right. :monster:

I honestly don't care what they choose to do because no Final Fantasy is meant to fill some "need" or "want" save for maybe the sequels or spinoffs. They make what they make and express their creativity as they so choose. Regardless of if it's classical fantasy, techno noir, transhumanist space opera, dystopian cyberpunk future, or something new entirely, if it's a Final Fantasy, it'll do something that leaves it's mark and be its own thing. It'll be different and familiar in numerous significant ways.

Hell, no one gave a fuck about FFXIV. No one asked, wanted or even held respect for the very idea of another FF MMORPG (FFXI was still going), yet they chose to make it. And it was a laughing stock with it's development issues. Then they nuked the game, redid it, and it became the most successful MMORPG now, with some of the most acclaimed storylines for the modern era of the franchise. People unaware of XIV's greatness are like in the shadows because yeah, it's an MMORPG, but it's been a flagbearer of the IP for years and it's base is massive. A significant number of FF fans come from XIV. But I digress ..If S-E are smart, they'll do what they want, do it well, and it will be a success.

FFXV was also a success despite having the most hellish, dramatic and turbulent developmental issues in a modern RPG. Sold like gangbusters, put S-E back in solid black and put S-E back as a full contender for current gen AAA RPG games. No one will know why they decided to suddenly strangle to death their gifted honor student child before he went to college, but it certainly wasn't over lack of success or sales. Some sort of BS internal corporate politics and clash of egos may have influenced Tabata's departure and trashing of his future content. But XV did its job with honors, and it's what got S-E fully in the door with the PS4 era.

Not every FF speaks to every fan because many are so wildly different, and reflections of different eras of game development, design and storytelling. But that only reflects the sheer breadth and scope of the franchise now due to how wide and varied the fan base of FF is. The audience has a very wide age range, generational scoop, and appeals to all genders.

....Also, people need to stop acting like The Crystal Bearers and World of Final Fantasy somehow don't exist. :monster: And don't tell me they don't count as main FFs just cause they don't have an arbitrary number, because those games were full, single player RPGs of the FF series and they definitely weren't carried by swordsmen protagonists. :P
 
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Mr. Ite
#30
Lots of conflicting wants here. I can definitely imagine the creative pressure the team is under. Maybe it would be best to just hang up the FF hat and call their new game something else...
 

Stiggie

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Stiggie
#31
There's literally like nothing they could do that would easily please any majority segment of the audience, in terms of sticking to some arbitrary scenario setting, so they should simply do whatever they feel inspired by, do it with passion and do it right. :monster:

I honestly don't care what they choose to do because no Final Fantasy is meant to fill some "need" or "want" save for maybe the sequels or spinoffs. They make what they make and express their creativity as they so choose. Regardless of if it's classical fantasy, techno noir, transhumanist space opera, dystopian cyberpunk future, or something new entirely, if it's a Final Fantasy, it'll do something that leaves it's mark and be its own thing. It'll be different and familiar in numerous significant ways.

Hell, no one gave a fuck about FFXIV. No one asked, wanted or even held respect for the very idea of another FF MMORPG (FFXI was still going), yet they chose to make it. And it was a laughing stock with it's development issues. Then they nuked the game, redid it, and it became the most successful MMORPG now, with some of the most acclaimed storylines for the modern era of the franchise. People unaware of XIV's greatness are like in the shadows because yeah, it's an MMORPG, but it's been a flagbearer of the IP for years and it's base is massive. A significant number of FF fans come from XIV. But I digress ..If S-E are smart, they'll do what they want, do it well, and it will be a success.

FFXV was also a success despite having the most hellish, dramatic and turbulent developmental issues in a modern RPG. Sold like gangbusters, put S-E back in solid black and put S-E back as a full contender for current gen AAA RPG games. No one will know why they decided to suddenly strangle to death their gifted honor student child before he went to college, but it certainly wasn't over lack of success or sales. Some sort of BS internal corporate politics and clash of egos may have influenced Tabata's departure and trashing of his future content. But XV did its job with honors, and it's what got S-E fully in the door with the PS4 era.

Not every FF speaks to every fan because many are so wildly different, and reflections of different eras of game development, design and storytelling. But that only reflects the sheer breadth and scope of the franchise now due to how wide and varied the fan base of FF is. The audience has a very wide age range, generational scoop, and appeals to all genders.

....Also, people need to stop acting like The Crystal Bearers and World of Final Fantasy somehow don't exist. :monster: And don't tell me they don't count as main FFs just cause they don't have an arbitrary number, because those games were full, single player RPGs of the FF series and they definitely weren't carried by swordsmen protagonists. :P
I wouldn't say the number is completely arbitrary, there are so many games, and there are only so many hours in the day and dollars in my pocket.
Having clarity in titles and consistency helps me maneuver that maze to more effectively spend my time and resources and find what I want.

I am sure FFXIV was great but I think it shouldn't have been a numbered title, and perhaps had world of final fantasy been one, I'd have played it.
I am still annoyed by the whole "remake" title business.

I just want titles to mean something so that I can figure out a relatively effective system of knowing what I like and discovering more of it.

Lots of conflicting wants here. I can definitely imagine the creative pressure the team is under. Maybe it would be best to just hang up the FF hat and call their new game something else...
I think that's perhaps what you get by not really doing a "standard FF" for so long. Everyone thinks it's been a very longtime since their "type" of final fantasy was released so it's about time.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
#32
Lots of conflicting wants here. I can definitely imagine the creative pressure the team is under. Maybe it would be best to just hang up the FF hat and call their new game something else...
"At last, life has uncovered the truth. Now, it is time to end this fantasy. In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the future that all life desires."

Square Developers: Who the hell do you think you are!? We're not ending anything! Never! Not as long as we have the will to live!

I see you keepin' that Necron energy :monster:

I think that's perhaps what you get by not really doing a "standard FF" for so long. Everyone thinks it's been a very longtime since their "type" of final fantasy was released so it's about time
But there is no such thing as a "standard" FF. The "standard/best FF" type is the one you see as your favorite. I don't expect nor necessarily want them to just consistently make the FF I want or prefer. I want to see one different and just whatever they feel is best. As long as it's a reflection of their creativity and talent while being engaging and entertaining, I'm not really looking for a particular FF. And I definitely don't think any FF is a "standard."
 

Stiggie

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Stiggie
#33
"At last, life has uncovered the truth. Now, it is time to end this fantasy. In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the future that all life desires."

Square Developers: Who the hell do you think you are!? We're not ending anything! Never! Not as long as we have the will to live!

I see you keepin' that Necron energy :monster:



But there is no such thing as a "standard" FF. The "standard/best FF" type is the one you see as your favorite. I don't expect nor necessarily want them to just consistently make the FF I want or prefer. I want to see one different and just whatever they feel is best. As long as it's a reflection of their creativity and talent while being engaging and entertaining, I'm not really looking for a particular FF. And I definitely don't think any FF is a "standard."
Maybe standard is a bad way to describe it, since FF has always tried to reinvent itself. Even so, there were always things that seemingly stayed consistent or were returned to that were more fundamental than names of summons, which made the titles feel cohesive and appealing to a certain demographic, a fanbase if you will.

I think it's fair to say that things like FFXI and FFXIV, while perhaps being great games, were fundamentally different from what people had been associating with FF for 10 games.
Now there is nothing wrong with reinventing yourself, it's their game, they can do with it what they want. However, there is also nothing wrong with saying "I liked those first 10 games, I hope they'll make something similar to them again".

And the longer they don't, the more those people will hope.
With the exception of remake, there hasn't been a main FF game that felt like it was meant to appeal to me for near 20 years, and I HOPE that changes.
 

Wol

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Dawn Warrior
#34
If done right, whatever change they make to FF is ok by me.

But honestly, new ideas takes time to reach maturity. For example, the job system really peaked in FFV despite being introduced in FFIII. Heck, FF itself peaked with FFVI and VII, because they perfected the formula established on the first entries. My opinion is that they shouldn't change the formula with each installment, but stick with an identity for a while (like franchises like GoW or Souls do). That would guarantee less development time, and more consistent results and reception.
 

Stiggie

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Stiggie
#35
If done right, whatever change they make to FF is ok by me.

But honestly, new ideas takes time to reach maturity. For example, the job system really peaked in FFV despite being introduced in FFIII. My opinion is that they shouldn't change the formula with each installment, but stick with an identity for a while (like franchises like GoW or Souls do). That would guarantee less development time, and more consistent results and reception.
Agreed. I'd like some time to acclimate to the water before they switch it up.
I am really enjoying the remake fighting system for instance and I really hope they'll just make some variation on that instead of trying random mechanics like teleportation such as with FFXV.
 

Wol

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Dawn Warrior
#37
Agreed. I'd like some time to acclimate to the water before they switch it up.
I am really enjoying the remake fighting system for instance and I really hope they'll just make some variation on that instead of trying random mechanics like teleportation such as with FFXV.
In that case, FFXV came before FFVIIR. And I don't see teleportation as random since its part of the story. I actually wish FFVIIR implemented and perfected things like co-op attacks from XV.

The thing is that each entry is done by a different team, its not like in the past where you had like 6 entries with the same director. Different teams, different visions, all the time, that's why there'll be always a segment of the fandom complaining.
 
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Mr. Ite
#38
What I would love most is a return to a more lighthearted aesthetic and direction, directed by Hiroyuki Ito. A re-recapture of the FFVI and FFIX charm, with the absolutely tremendous modern combat of FF7R. Don’t care much about the tech level of the setting, or the cultural inspiration. Ideally, the setting would have places I’d want to live as well as gross and creepy locales. A world that feels big and diverse is something that I’ve been missing since... huh.

Some of my favorite things about FF are gone forever I think, like static camera angles, world maps, and the sheer bloody length of the dang games, but 7R showed me they can make a true full-on RPG that thrives rather than clashes with the modern expectation of an action game, and if you have gameplay, you have a game :)

Please don’t announce a trilogy, compilation, or other meta or multimedia experiment. Jesus fuck please don’t. If I so much as hear the name Yoichi Wada I’m gonna zetaflare S-E studios. Make it a complete game, and make it say something. Even if it doesn’t resonate with me, I’ll know if it’s honest.
 
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Prism

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pikpixelart
#43
For me, it’s not about if they have a sword or not - it’s on how creative the sword design is. With all the capabilities characters have in video games, the visual look of their weapon is just that - a visual skin. A “sword” could be designed to have numerous fighting styles in the world of fantasy, ones not tied to reality. I mean...that’s the whole thing about the gunblades, as ridiculed as they are. A magic-sword hybrid could do anything, really, too. Noctis can throw and teleport to his sword, which is very different than how Cloud uses his. Cloud wields his more or less how people imaging giant fantasy axes are used, with lots of weight.

So sword or no sword, the weapon design just has to be interesting.

To repeat what I said in the PS5 thread, I’m hoping for a true mixing of the sci-fi and old fantasy formulas, akin to how VI did it. A mix between Amano and Nomura style (maybe even villains with Amano style, heroes with Nomura? Though I’d love an Amano-style main character again) would be even cooler.

This is where I'm at. I always point to FFX as a setting I didn't know I wanted until I saw it. I want them to surprise me.

The whole traditional European gothic medieval castles+knights+traditional scaley dragons is visually super boring to me. I'm playing I'm just not interested in the "I read/watched Lord of the Rings when I was 12 and now it's the only fantasy setting I can imagine"-look.
Well, this is what’s so appealing about JRPGs in general. They generally aren’t beholden to bland, blatant Tolkien copycats and give the worlds their own charm. Even things roughly based on the western fantasy formula all deviate in meaningful ways.

Lots of conflicting wants here. I can definitely imagine the creative pressure the team is under. Maybe it would be best to just hang up the FF hat and call their new game something else...
This is why creators should base things off of a direct artistic vision, not necessarily just what the fans are calling for (though it’s a necessary thing to balance a lot of the times...ideally, they give something the fans didn’t even know they wanted)
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
#44
While its not a deal-breaker for me either, its true that it wouldn't hurt to change that cliche. I guess its too engraved in the collective consensus that possessing a sword means you are the leader. And since we always want to impersonate the leader, they keep giving them swords.
For me, it’s not about if they have a sword or not - it’s on how creative the sword design is. With all the capabilities characters have in video games, the visual look of their weapon is just that - a visual skin. A “sword” could be designed to have numerous fighting styles in the world of fantasy, ones not tied to reality. I mean...that’s the whole thing about the gunblades, as ridiculed as they are. A magic-sword hybrid could do anything, really, too. Noctis can throw and teleport to his sword, which is very different than how Cloud uses his. Cloud wields his more or less how people imaging giant fantasy axes are used, with lots of weight.
May be irrelevant, but in FFXIV, the leader of one incarnation of the Warriors of Light (well, the Warriors of Darkness on their world, because they were fighting to prevent a Flood of Light) used an axe -- and his counterpart that the player controls was depicted in FFXIV's original cinematic as an archer. :monster:

If YoshiP is in fact going to be involved with XVI, this may indicate we're in for a main character who doesn't use a sword.

Not that I think it particularly matters. I'm just sharing an observation. :monster:
 
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The Engineer
#45
For all that the FF games have a lot of different... window dressing (for lack of a better term), their stories aren't all that different when it comes to structure. Most of them are "road trip" type stories. That is, you need a group of people traveling from point A to point B while finding out more about the person/organization who caused the problem that got the group of people together in the first pace. And once they know enough about what the villain is planning, they go defeat them.

In terms of characters, they usually have well thought out reasons for why they are the way they are, although if you do look across the games, it doesn't take long to see that there's a set of character archtypes the devs like to use more than others. The brooding loner who really does have strong feelings, the person who knows way too much about the conflict that started this whole thing, the hyper girl who's interested in everyone, etc. It's not that hard to take a look at each cast and sort most of the characters into what their archtype is.

In terms of the setting, it's usually got a decent amount of world-building and crazy rules about how the "physics" of the world works. Usually the "physics" of the world ties into the conflict somehow and someone is always messing with something really important to the world. However, most "magic" and "science" are very interchangeable. Most "magic systems" in FF games are pretty well-known in their settings to the point they might as well be a branch of science and a lot of the "science" in FF games is so undefined it feels more like magic than anything else . This makes a lot of the "worldbuiding" feel like it's really just different terms for a lot of the same thing made to fit the window dressing of the setting.

Like, make Shinra an Expansionist Empire and the Science Department a cadre of Sorcerers doing magic experiments on people (still using the Lifestream and Jenova!) for said Empire and the story of FFVII works out just fine. AVALANCHE is a rebel group trying to overthrow the Empire, Sephiroth is still a high ranking SOLDIER of the Empire that went crazy because of magic experiments, Aerith is a magic user the Head Sorcerer of the cadre really wants to bring in, etc. And you've got FFVII in a Traditional Medieval Fantasy! You can do this with just about any FF game to make it be in whatever setting you want...
 
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The Engineer
#46
May be irrelevant, but in FFXIV, the leader of one incarnation of the Warriors of Light (well, the Warriors of Darkness on their world, because they were fighting to prevent a Flood of Light) used an axe -- and his counterpart that the player controls was depicted in FFXIV's original cinematic as an archer. :monster:
There is an ongoing joke in the FFXIV Magic Job users that they will never get to be the "poster job" for an expansion since rods/staves, books and star-globes (think an astrolabe) can't be made to look badass like the meele/physical ranged job weapons can. Although a lot of those jokes were from before Red Mage was a job... and Red Mage uses rapiers, a kind of sword, so maybe now... hum...

Out of the seventeen different jobs in FFXIV, six of them use what could be considered swords. Dark Knight (two-handed sword), Paladin (sword and shield), Red Mage (rapier), Samurai (katana), Gunbreaker (Squall-stye gunblade), and Ninja (daggers). All of them have very different ways of using them too...
 
#47
There is an ongoing joke in the FFXIV Magic Job users that they will never get to be the "poster job" for an expansion since rods/staves, books and star-globes (think an astrolabe) can't be made to look badass like the meele/physical ranged job weapons can.
I think rods and staves can definitely look cool. But...there's really no saving the book weapon, lol. I love a lot of my summoner's relic armor, but even the fanciest glowing weapon is still...just a book :lol:

As for FF stories having similar structure, of course, but I don't think it's nearly as similar as other franchises. The Tales of games come to mind, they're definitely enjoyable, but they take the "different characters and setting in a world with the exact same metaphysics/plot structure" way more seriously than FF. You could swap the casts from various Tales games and drop them into another with minimal issue. Persona is another one, although if you consider SMT overall there is more variety.
 
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The Engineer
#48
For all that there is a lot similar between different FF games, the characters and how their relationships work is very different across the different games. Cloud, Squall and Lighting are all the loner brooding types who have strong feelings underneath it all, but they are distinct enough from each other (and the people in their own lives) that swapping them around would lead to different events happening in their own stories.

Same thing goes for oh... Yuufie, Rikku and Vanille, who are the hyper cheerful girls of their settings....

Final Fantasy's characters are one of the things that really makes the franchise stand out of the other JRPG series out there.
 
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