Forum software upgrade (for real now)

[Lulcielid]

This is a bit tangent to what you guys are discussing now but, have you considered phpBB as another alternative option?

 

[Mage]

Okay I'm not bummed out that this discussion has come up again because I fiddled around with the test version of TLS Discourse aeons ago and voiced my opinions (here: https://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=767595&postcount=119 ) and honestly found the differences to be extremely off-putting. Not sure how much work was done on the stylings but how it looked at the time was a total turn-off in terms of dark font on a light screen (*shudder*) and dividers etc. IMO the new site should carry through a strong sense of the old but freshened up. That doesn't seem to be an immediately apparent process with Discourse.

IMO this should be as light a load as possible for the simple reason that the person responsible for the port over is incredibly disinclined on a good day (<3 just thinking to the other day when you called me a bitch Yop ).
We can't get back the effort expended on the Discourse port and no-one is getting a kick in the teeth if ultimately we can find a more appropriate forum software that will last a goodly while with minimal disruption and can be upgraded relatively painlessly.
I'm all for suggestions for worthier software but please bear in mind when you throw out suggestions that unless you're willing to offer up a valid case for that suggestion (are you a member of another forum that utilises said software for example), or are willing to follow through and spend some time testing out the test version if it comes to be, you're basically wasting time.

This whole shebang has been bloody frustrating and that's just from the POV of a regular forum user. If we're going to start the process afresh then we need to go about this like we've not approached it before.

 

[Geostigma]

Ok, so let's break this all down: Discourse Vs. Xenforo Vs. vBulletin 5

We're trying to determine placement/winners for each of the following:

1) Familiarity for Existing Users (vB > Xf > Ds)
2) Ease of Access for New Users
3) Ease of Data Migration
4) Theme Capabilities
5) Mobile-View Compatibility
6) Moderation & Staff Learning Curve (vB > Xf > Ds)
7) Ease of Back-End Troubleshooting
8) Security Concerns
9) Shelf-Life / Sustainability
10) Cost: Monetary & Time

Which of those ones can you weigh in on, Yop?





X

Just filling in some blanks with my 2 cents.

1) Familiarity for Existing Users (vB > Xf > Ds)

2) Ease of Access for New Users. vB or Xf for sure. One is the longest running/current forum software for the whole internet. And the other is its estranged kid lol.

3) Ease of Data Migration - I think this might be a 3 way tie? Discourse seems like the hardest to work with in general, how ever it looks like Yop has had some practice already.


4) Theme Capabilities , looking at the past posts in this thread. At the very least its clear Discourse doesn't have a horse in this race lol, and with our main skinner of that software gone it's not looking so hot either.
Furthermore, and not to insult Flints work... but is the skin on the test site even done?


5) Mobile-View Compatibility - It's been awhile since I looked into it , but don't you have to pay extra for vB's mobile suite in vB5?


6) Moderation & Staff Learning Curve (vB > Xf > Ds)


7) Ease of Back-End Troubleshooting - Considering yops statement in his post like a page ago Discourse seems to lose this too. vB is familiar and offers tons of documentation on their site for issues. Idk how Xen offers support.


8) Security Concerns - I'm not a tech dood but I had a showerthought moment. Since Discourse is open source does that mean bad doods who know what there doing have an easier time finding cracks in the armor too?

9) Shelf-Life / Sustainability - Will defer to the tech doods for this one. Though I'm curious, how popular is Discourse? For instance something that may not be used a ton , is free and is open source doesn't exactly scream consistent updates/support to me.

10) Cost: Monetary & Time

 

[Mage]

Insofar as number ten goes, I (and I suspect other members) would be happy to donate again to chip in for costs. Also what Yop said about monetising the site should be considered to cover running costs and that pesky travel bursary that occasionally gets mooted. If paying for a software licence gets us something easier to work with and more secure, then it's a no-brainer.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Between Yop, Lex, & I &#8212; I'm fairly confident that we're not worried about having a cost or not being associated with a needed upgrade, unless it's prohibitively expensive. That one is mostly looking at of there are some advantages vs. ones that will cost something, in case it's a deciding factor, and also if there's a fancier and easier version that's more expensive or some shit.





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[Cthulhu]

Let me try and weigh in:


2) Ease of Access for New Users

Discourse has a pretty good onboarding procedure, it allows people to join using not only a username / password but also log in via oauth providers like Facebook, Google, etc. I don't know if the current versions of vB or Xf (is that the official abbreviation? Thank fuck because xenforo is a shit name lololo) have any of that.

3) Ease of Data Migration

I expect both vB 5 and Xf to be very easy in that regard; vB will have a standardized upgrade / migration script, Xf probably will too. Discourse has a vBulletin importer too (two even), but when I tried it it took three days for the initial import, and then it needed to do a million background tasks - I think that was shit like send returning members a message with information, recalculating stats, etc. I ran that on a local development environment and it kept freezing up.

4) Theme Capabilities

That's something I never liked about vB, while it does offer all the customization options, it mainly does so via their own web interface, which is a poor user experience. I don't know if Discourse has a good alternative, there is theme support somewhere but I haven't found any good guides about it. Ideally there'd be a development mode with simple code / css editing and live reload. Might be possible if you have a dev instance of the software. I don't know about Xf but I can imagine they've basically done the same that vB did.

5) Mobile-View Compatibility

vB and Xf will probably come with mobile skins out of the box. I know vB 5 was a lot heavier per page than vB 3 though, iirc each page was at least 2 times as heavy - and that wasn't counting images. Discourse comes with a responsive design and should work fine on mobile by default (although it's not great IMO), and there's an official app which (probably) hooks into the API (Discourse has a strict back- and front-end separation which allows that).

6) Moderation & Staff Learning Curve (vB > Xf > Ds)

I know Discourse was made by the same guy / guys behind Stack Overflow, and managing spam and abuse and setting up a community without abuse has been one of the major challenges they had to overcome. With that in mind though, moderation didn't seem as heavily emphasized or developed as vB; it probably doesn't need to either. What I recall is that users can flag posts, moderators will get notifications, and can take actions ranging from warnings to shadow banning. here is an article from the founder of both SO and Discourse, he's also very active on the Discourse meta and is probably pulling the project.

7) Ease of Back-End Troubleshooting

Urgh. vB / Xf will be easy enough to reinstall in case of errors, in the case of Discourse I just don't know. Discourse does seem to have a decent backup strategy though, and backing up / restoring from my dev machine to the test site was easy and fast - I'd argue it was easier / faster than vB was.

8) Security Concerns

vB 3 is shit, that's for sure, and it's amazing we haven't been hacked yet; I think the fact we removed visible version information from the bottom of the page helped in that regard. Mind you we probably have been hacked already, possibly through Wordpress but at this point it could be anything; the hacker just stole the database instead of defacing the site (like what happened with FFOF). Xf, I dunno, I like to think the PHP stack is safe enough nowadays. Discourse I dunno either, but I get the feeling there's much more development power and attention to e.g. security than there is for vB and Xf combined.

9) Shelf-Life / Sustainability

As I mentioned elsewhere, vB 5 seems to not get much updates anymore. I don't know about Xf, but given it's closed source I also get the impression that it's only going to get maintained for as long as the creators can be fucked / get paid. Discourse is heavily invested in atm, and they get hundreds of contributions a month, releasing at least once a month. I saw they have just released the 2.0 version, too.

On that, I noticed Xf also has a 2.0 version now. Their announcements page seems to be updated frequently enough.

10) Cost: Monetary & Time

vB 5 is $250, possibly $209 as an upgrade (we have an existing vB 5 license actually); 'patch' updates aren't listed on their pricing page. Upgrading would be a matter of hours, plus whatever time it takes to make the visuals work but I dunno if I can be fucked with that.

Discourse is either free or $300 a month or more, depending

Xf is $140 initial purchase, $40 per year after that for upgrades. Their website looks dated and shit btw, jesus christ how are they still in business.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So, does it make sense to toss some cash and take a few hours to just upgrade to vB 5 now (and someone other than you can work at fixxxing any visual bugs that crop up as a result) and then, depending on how that goes / performs, we can look at moving off & fully migrating to a different platform if there's still sadness or whatnot?

I'm happy to cover that cost if it's worth taking into account.




X

 

[Lestat]

If it meant getting something better than discourse id be more than happy to donate towards a proper upgrade also.

I joined the discourse site back before the layout etc was updated and as I tend to be accessing the site mostly via mobile I can't say I was impressed by any of the functionality.

 

[Cthulhu]

vB 5 will need a full styling jerb though, probably can't easily transfer the current style over. Mind you it'll probably take just a couple hours to get 80% of the way there, but that also involves me becoming unlazy and TBF I sometimes feel like I want to move away from software development given how much I don't feel like doing it sometimes.

Can't make money off of alcoholism though.

 

[Lestat]

vB 5 will need a full styling jerb though, probably can't easily transfer the current style over. Mind you it'll probably take just a couple hours to get 80% of the way there, but that also involves me becoming unlazy and TBF I sometimes feel like I want to move away from software development given how much I don't feel like doing it sometimes.

Can't make money off of alcoholism though.

Could become a whisky taster?
Or a wine taster?
Beer taster....cider taster....vodka taster........

God I need a drink

 

[X-SOLDIER]

vB 5 will need a full styling jerb though, probably can't easily transfer the current style over. Mind you it'll probably take just a couple hours to get 80% of the way there, but that also involves me becoming unlazy and TBF I sometimes feel like I want to move away from software development given how much I don't feel like doing it sometimes.

Can't make money off of alcoholism though.

Well, I say let's just transfer what we can over ta vB 5, especially since that's the smallest impact on your cba, and I'm sure that we can collectively figure out the rest in relatively short order for the remaining parts that're still a bit weird. I'm sure that filling any of the gaps to, "make the house liveable" will be straightforward, and that the perfectionists will help out with the bits that're still strange. The Creators Discord is popping with activity when things need ta get done, so I've got faith that we can tackle a relatively small move like that with pretty small growing pains.

My only advice is possibly decide to be unlazy before Mage eats you alive?

But really, if there's anything I can do to help out aside from throw cash to cover the cost, just lemme know.





X

 

[Mage]

My only advice is possibly decide to be unlazy before Mage eats you alive?

X

IN MY DEFENCE he did ask me to keep prodding. Also I think you'll find that only Cthulhu eats victims, it is known.

 

[Lex]

Don't do anything yet because I'm about to throw a spanner in the works.

vB5 should be avoided at all costs. It sounds attractive but it'll be no easier to skin than Xen and Xen will actually offer more familiarity with the current board. The devs who made vB up to V3 (our current board) left and started Xen after. By all accounts vB4 was poor and vB5 is a horrific resource hog with a shitty backend.

Xenforo is the spiritual and literal successor to our current forum software and if we're not going with discourse then that's the software I'd recommend. vB5 wasn't even a consideration during previous discussions in part because Aaron was so vehemently against it. I know there's some weird feelings when it comes to Aaron but by jeebus did he know what he was talking about when it came to forum software. I am dead opposed to vB5 unless someone can convince me otherwise, there's nothing to suggest its situation has changed (I actually suggested vB5 way back when and Aaron put the brakes on it).

And enough about the monetary aspect, I've already committed to paying for a license. It's the least I can do for TLS after all these years. If others want to commit to chipping in for updates down the line that's all for the better.

But it's important to note that regardless of what we go with (even if somehow we end up trying vB5) there'll still be a shitload of work to do.

EDIT: Also really worth pointing out is that the general internet consensus right now is that Discourse is the future. Obviously that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best thing for TLS, but go googling and that's all you'll see. It's actually the closest "mordern-acceptable" version of an internet board.

 

[Geostigma]

Segways were the future too

 

[Fangu]

I just want to add in that I've had the words 'sunk cost fallacy' in my head for the last three days.

/ not being useful

 

[Lestat]

Without going into full project manager mode has anyone considered making a time/cost graph to try and map out expected outcomes from.each option?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well, I'm not even sure that general internet consensus is that Discourse is the future, especially when you start looking at OUR specific use-case for moving to new forum software. When you look at Xenforo's top sites, they include IGN, ResetEra, & Gamestar.de &#8211; relatively high-traffic gaming sites where we'd be most likely to see user crossover.

I think that the biggest difference is that Discourse feels like a long-form chat room, and Xenforo feels like a categorized forum. I think that basically everything that differentiates user wants and usability differences between them are the basic mindsets for those two things.

So... are there any really compelling reasons to avoid Xenforo?





X

 

[Lestat]

My only issue with xenforo is the annual costing for a site that doesn't really bring in revenue.

 

[Claymore]

And enough about the monetary aspect, I've already committed to paying for a license. It's the least I can do for TLS after all these years. If others want to commit to chipping in for updates down the line that's all for the better.

I think we can stick a fork in that particular discussion. Any other reasons though?

 

[Carlie]

Look while I'm still fine with discourse I'm going to vote we move to xenforo. It has the best balance for us right now of not being crap like vb but not too radically different like discourse. But we need to move from this outdated as fuck forum and mainly the dumpster fire that passes for its mobile version.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

My only issue with xenforo is the annual costing for a site that doesn't really bring in revenue.

And enough about the monetary aspect, I've already committed to paying for a license. It's the least I can do for TLS after all these years. If others want to commit to chipping in for updates down the line that's all for the better.

I think we can stick a fork in that particular discussion. Any other reasons though?

Yeah, associated cost is definitely a non-factor.




X

 

[Cthulhu]

Can't make money off of alcoholism though.

Could become a whisky taster?
Or a wine taster?
Beer taster....cider taster....vodka taster........

God I need a drink

Tasting usually involves paying others for the privilege though, . Plus you kinda need to spit it out to avoid ruining your flavor.

I did hear the top taster for e.g. Famous Grouse has their nose insured for millions.


Anyway re: VB 5, I too am not in favor of it, given our previous experiences; it was shot down very fast at the time. That was years ago too, and AFAIK there hasn't been any major developments in vB since then - other than the developers bolting a CMS and shit on top of it.

Also @ Ergo what makes you think we don't really bring in revenue? We make some money off of ads and the youtube videos, and I'm still thinking of starting up a Patreon - monthly small donations are vastly superior to both ad revenue (also given Youtube's penchant of demonitizing lately) and one-time donations. Besides that, I've actually got a decently paying job now, . Anyway, hosting is errr.... several times the cost of what Xf would cost a year, and Xf's licensing is a lot more reasonable than vB's are.

Also TIL Xf is actually pretty popular; guess I'm living in a bit of a hipster / software developer bubble wrt Discourse.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think that the biggest difference is that Discourse feels like a long-form chat room, and Xenforo feels like a categorized forum.

This is the feeling I get from Discourse. It feels like something that works well with short posts, not the novel-length posts we produce at times.

I'm thinking of not just the long quote-within-quote posts we get, but also posts like the Community Playthoughs and other things of that nature. They're almost like mini-articles in and of themselves and have text formatting to match. It feels like it would be hard to get Discourse to have that level of functionality and that functionality is used almost everywhere for various things.

 

[Lestat]

Can't make money off of alcoholism though.

Could become a whisky taster?
Or a wine taster?
Beer taster....cider taster....vodka taster........

God I need a drink

Tasting usually involves paying others for the privilege though, . Plus you kinda need to spit it out to avoid ruining your flavor.

I did hear the top taster for e.g. Famous Grouse has their nose insured for millions.


Anyway re: VB 5, I too am not in favor of it, given our previous experiences; it was shot down very fast at the time. That was years ago too, and AFAIK there hasn't been any major developments in vB since then - other than the developers bolting a CMS and shit on top of it.

Also @ Ergo what makes you think we don't really bring in revenue? We make some money off of ads and the youtube videos, and I'm still thinking of starting up a Patreon - monthly small donations are vastly superior to both ad revenue (also given Youtube's penchant of demonitizing lately) and one-time donations. Besides that, I've actually got a decently paying job now, . Anyway, hosting is errr.... several times the cost of what Xf would cost a year, and Xf's licensing is a lot more reasonable than vB's are.

Also TIL Xf is actually pretty popular; guess I'm living in a bit of a hipster / software developer bubble wrt Discourse.

I looked for somewhere to donate on the site a few weeks back but couldn't find anything so I just assumed you did this all out of your own pockets XD

EDIT: Is the quote button broken lol?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So, let's all get aboard the XF train and make it happen then? What're the next actions what we need to make to do the thing?

EDIT: I fixxxed the quote issue on both your poasts. Yops was missing the

to thread it properly.




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