[Game Complete] Pushing It to the Thirteenth Hour: My Step by Step Impressions of Final Fantasy XIII.

[Cat Rage Room]

The problem with FFXIII is, is that, that's not what FF franchise is supposed to be.

And before someone goes "WELL WHAT IS FF SUPPOSED TO BE" (in a "what do you mean you people" tone of voice), well, I would figure that FF is 'supposed' to be at least an improvement, in the previous FF core designs. FFXIII seems like it just straight up ditched a lot of FF gameplay elements, and it seems it would have been better as a side story or something instead of a main installment. At least FFT had the grace to be a FF 'side game' instead of a main installment when they decided its core gameplay would be markedly different from the rest.

Don't get me wrong, FFT is the shit, though.

 

[ForceStealer]

And my point regarding Heavy Rain is just that, it set itself to be like that. So if a games sets itself out to be an amalgam of gameplay and cutscenes, what's wrong with there being cutscenes. For example, anyone going into Metal Gear Solid 4 was fully aware that there would be LOTS of cutscenes, no one ever tried to fool you into thinking it wasn't. As such, I observe that more of the complaints with MGS4 was that its story was dumb, not so much how many cutscenes there were.

But I never got the impression there was a whole lot of complaining about FFXIII for its cutscenes, as we established they're not that long. And the ratio of gameplay-cutscenes is absolutely in favor of gameplay. I thought the complaints were other things. (towns, linearity, etc.) I don't think it has more cutscenes than any other FF. Hell, the Lifestream exposition in FF7 is a long sequence. I'd consider all of that a cutscene, I'm not sure walking between the 3 cutscenes counts.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's not that FFXIII has too many cutscenes, it's the fact that you don't DO anything in FFXIII save for battling, and all of the interaction you *could* do outside of battling, is just shown off in cutscenes.

FFVII had a lot of cutscenes/exposition scenes but you did EVERYTHING in that game. Instead of watching some cutscene of Cloud and the others race out of the Shinra Building on a bike and truck, you DROVE the bike and defended the truck from Shinra Grunts. Instead of watching a cutscene of Cloud and the others finding a Chocobo and riding it past the Midgar Zolom, you DID it. When you had to escape the Junon Reactor via sub..you didn't see it..you did it. Etc, etc.

That's the point of contention of FFXIII. It's not about the cutscenes themselves, its the fact that they supplant the actual interaction with the game world itself and leave you with nothing else to do but battle the bad guys. Nothing's wrong with cutscenes, when they don't replace the actual playing and interaction you have with the game, that is.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Instead of watching some cutscene of Cloud and the others race out of the Shinra Building on a bike and truck, you DROVE the bike and defended the truck from Shinra Grunts.

This is one of the many reasons why FFVII is considered the most influential RPG of all time, and one of the best video games of all time.

Little shit like this.

Little shit like this.

 

[Tetsujin]

That's the point of contention of FFXIII.

It's my point of contention with every FF past VII.

Seriously, I have been waiting for another arcade-style gameplay sequence such as the motorcycle chase ever since then and S-E never delivered. ;_;

When I was playing FF12, I wanted to actually play some of these airship battles. Maybe a short on-rails shooter minigame with the Strahl? But nope. Just FMVs.

Non-anamorphic windowboxed FMVs. Fuck you, S-E. ;_;

 

[ForceStealer]

Though, as we've discussed (EDIT: and Tets just said), no Final Fantasy has had the interaction that VII had in terms of inventive minigames. X had Blitzball which...kinda counts.

But what did VIII let you do instead of making you sit through a cutscene? You issued orders during the fight with Galbadia I guess. IX? There was the sword-dueling game which was essentially quick-time events. XII...was there anything XII let you do that wasn't combat?
The only other game that attempted to reach VII's level of minigames was X-2, unfortunately they sucked.

VIII and IX had card games, of course, and I was known to enjoy them in small doses. But I definitely do not regret the lack of a card game in FFXIII.

Again, I know your problem with the lack of towns/exploration, but I don't see that as a function of cutscenes glossing over them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Again, I know your problem with the lack of towns/exploration, but I don't see that as a function of cutscenes glossing over them.

What Mako is trying to say is that maybe the amount/frequency of cutscenes in FFXIII wouldn't be so bad if there was more to do, period. Literally all you're doing in FFXIII is CUTSCENE/DUNGEON/CUTSCENE/DUNGEON/CUTSCENE/DUNGEON/CUTSCENE/DUNGEON

That's it. Yes, in Final Fantasy, and in RPGs, most if not all gameplay circles back to battles. Side quests give you weapons for battles. Exploring towns give you items for battles. Minigames increase stats for battles, etc. That's fine. But in FFXIII there's literally nothing to do but battle. In FFVII through FFXII the 'means to an end to battles' are presented in interesting ways, like side quests, chocobo stuff, exploration, minigames, NPCs, card games, hidden monsters, towns, etc etc. FFXIII is sorely short on those things, and makes no attempt to hide it or fix it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's true. Not every FF has lived up to the standard of FFVII in terms of interactivity, but none of them stripped themselves naked like FFXIII has, so it's a lot more noticeable and jarring.

The past FF's had extent content and interaction. Not as much as FFVII, but it was still there. FFXIII is just stripped to the bone.

I don't think FFX-2 sucked. I liked most of its mini-games. The only one I seriously hated, was the monkey match making one. That's only one, so I think that's pretty good. I mean, FFX-2 had the shooting mini-game with Yuna on Besaid...that was one of the coolest ones right there. I think most fans weren't ready for the zerg rush of interaction and games but I definitely was and look back at it fondly.

FFXII's only mini-game was fishing. But what it lacked in mini-games it made up for in interaction, immersion in Ivalice's world through the clan primer, hunts, and dialogue. And various little things that made you feel like you were literally living the world that was Ivalice in that time. I would've loved to have more airship fun though.

FFVIII though had lots of mini-games, as did IX. Not as much as VII but they were there, and in a good size.

Also another series that really lets you do a lot, would be KH. Especially KH2. KH2 did a lot of things right, in retrospect. It's a solid damn game and is very enjoyable.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Also if you really want an example of an RPG having stuff to do, nothing can beat Star Ocean 2. From going on an Iron Chef like cooking competition, to making your weapons and armor (and every character can learn to do so as well), to training birds to fetch items for you in dungeons, to motherfucking forging fake documents to illegally acquire shops from shopkeepers, there is a ton of shit to do from start to finish, Star Ocean 2 is a shining example of what gameplay in RPGs could be like, hell, to what FFXIII could have even came close to, but noooo...

 

[ForceStealer]

FFXII's only mini-game was fishing. But what it lacked in mini-games it made up for in interaction, immersion in Ivalice's world through the clan primer, hunts, and dialogue. And various little things that made you feel like you were literally living the world that was Ivalice in that time. I would've loved to have more airship fun though.

The clan primer and hunts really don't count as any more immersive than anything else, imo. Especially not more than XIII's hunts which are literally the exact same thing except you (thankfully) don't have to go back to the stone that gave you the mission after you kill the mark.

Again, I get your problems with the towns thing. And XII totally had some of the most alive cities of an Final Fantasy to date. But in terms of minigames and immersion, I think you're holding XIII to a higher standard than you are other FFs.

(I liked FFX-2, too. But not really any of the minigames. I don't boot up X-2 to play a game now and then like I do with VII to play Snowboarding)

Mog, I totally got what you were saying about feeling literally tired since the first 25 hours of XIII is one long dungeon. There is no breather, I absolutely agree with that. I just don't think the lack of breathers means its this shadow of an FF. Its focus on combat is every bit as heavy as XII's and others.

Its immersion is certainly not like XII's or VII's in terms of interacting with the populace, but I still found myself (and I pretty sure MOG did for a little while there) immersed because its kind of interesting. The god status of the fal'cie for humans and the variety of functions they served and their motivations for doing it was pretty interesting. And the database is pretty extensive and interesting, I know I read all of it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The clan primer and hunts really don't count as any more immersive than anything else, imo. Especially not more than XIII's hunts which are literally the exact same thing except you (thankfully) don't have to go back to the stone that gave you the mission after you kill the mark.

The Marks of FFXII are superior to me because each one is a story in and of itself. The reasons why the monster has to be hunted, coupled with the unique history of said monster in relation to the person, and then how they're described as a species makes each hunt unique in and of itself. Yeah, its a pain to back track, but its paid out in terms of knowing the history of why the monster went nuts, why the person had to have it killed, etc. They range from humorous, to sad, to interesting, to also pretty cool. It's not just "go kill this monster for gilz" you actually get a story out of it, and then a description of what made the monster what it was. It's just an incomplete story and they all start to just sound the same.

There was a lot of potential in having to take up the focci of other fallen Fal'Cie but I don't think they truly realized the potential in that regard. They kinda did, with you getting to read the epitaphs of what the Fal'Cie thought/said in regards to killing the monsters they had to, but because you're just well...reading what's going on, and then that's it. It just...kinda seems a bit empty. They had a good idea there, but then it just fizzled.

Again, I get your problems with the towns thing. And XII totally had some of the most alive cities of an Final Fantasy to date. But in terms of minigames and immersion, I think you're holding XIII to a higher standard than you are other FFs.

Not really. Again, presentation and little things go a long way. By actually making you feel like you're participating in the every day world of Ivalice by joining a clan, doing the work, seeing the people, and going back and forth, it sets up the whole interaction with the gaming world. The Carrot Mob Hunt was hilarious. As was the Trickster one. Another hilarious one was the Mandragora family. All the little things like that, made FFXII's mob hunts more than just killing the monsters.

(I liked FFX-2, too. But not really any of the minigames. I don't boot up X-2 to play a game now and then like I do with VII to play Snowboarding)

Dude, the Gunner's Gauntlet was awesome. I loved that one. As were the Cactuar Hunts. I mean there were lots of cool shit to do, especially on the Calm Lands.

Mog, I totally got what you were saying about feeling literally tired since the first 25 hours of XIII is one long dungeon. There is no breather, I absolutely agree with that. I just don't think the lack of breathers means its this shadow of an FF. Its focus on combat is every bit as heavy as XII's and others.

Eh, I can't say that. Because FFXII did give you breathers It was focused on combat yes, but it didn't just drop you in a lake of monsters and just say "Swim or die, kay?"

Its immersion is certainly not like XII's or VII's in terms of interacting with the populace, but I still found myself (and I pretty sure MOG did for a little while there) immersed because its kind of interesting. The god status of the fal'cie for humans and the variety of functions they served and their motivations for doing it was pretty interesting. And the database is pretty extensive and interesting, I know I read all of it.

And that's a testament to its story. I never doubted that FFXIII would have an engaging story, and that's great. But a story can only take a game so far.

 

[ForceStealer]

The Marks of FFXII are superior to me because each one is a story in and of itself. The reasons why the monster has to be hunted, coupled with the unique history of said monster in relation to the person, and then how they're described as a species makes each hunt unique in and of itself. Yeah, its a pain to back track, but its paid out in terms of knowing the history of why the monster went nuts, why the person had to have it killed, etc. They range from humorous, to sad, to interesting, to also pretty cool. It's not just "go kill this monster for gilz" you actually get a story out of it, and then a description of what made the monster what it was.

But so do XIII's (with the exception of Titan's challenges, but they kinda have a story of their own...sorta).
I remember feeling a quick pang of sadness when one of the missions for the former l'Cie was to kill her husband who had become a Cie'th, she could not do it and refused her focus, and became a Cie'th stone.

The first time you fight a Tonberry is very funny. So is Cactuar. And most all of them have a little story that go with them. A mother that refused to kill a lost child Adamantoise, someone that swore vengeance against a creature that killed her whole family (and clearly didn't succeed).

Winning some of them unlocks excerpts from Pulsian documents talking about Pulse vs. Cocoon's fal'cie and Vanille's and Fang's purpose.

They are a LOT like XII's Hunts.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

But so do XIII's (with the exception of Titan's challenges, but they kinda have a story of their own...sorta).
I remember feeling a quick pang of sadness when one of the missions for the former l'Cie was to kill her husband who had become a Cie'th, she could not do it and refused her focus, and became a Cie'th stone.

The first time you fight a Tonberry is very funny. So is Cactuar. And most all of them have a little story that go with them. A mother that refused to kill a lost child Adamantoise, someone that swore vengeance against a creature that killed her whole family (and clearly didn't succeed).

Winning some of them unlocks excerpts from Pulsian documents talking about Pulse vs. Cocoon's fal'cie and Vanille's and Fang's purpose.

They are a LOT like XII's Hunts.

Eh. Disagree. And keep in mind, I've done some of FFXIII's hunt thing! Yes, the core aspect is the same; 'a thing gives you a mission, a little story blurb, and you go fight something', but FFXII's was presented a LOT better, and more fleshed out.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But so do XIII's (with the exception of Titan's challenges, but they kinda have a story of their own...sorta).
I remember feeling a quick pang of sadness when one of the missions for the former l'Cie was to kill her husband who had become a Cie'th, she could not do it and refused her focus, and became a Cie'th stone.

I acknowledged that. FFXIII's had potential but its a victim of the format. FFXII's hunts take it further than just the initial expose of what the hunt is and why. You see the aftermath, and why it happened in the first place. Plus, the bestiary info isn't just the stats of what the thing is, it tells you why it mutated, what type of character it has, all sorts of esoteric and detailed shit. It just takes it above and beyond the usual "kill shit for gilz" mechanic.

FFXIII tried to do that, but it didn't get past stage 1. Yeah, some of them are well written but you don't get much further than just the initial intro of what it is.

The first time you fight a Tonberry is very funny. So is Cactuar. And most all of them have a little story that go with them. A mother that refused to kill a lost child Adamantoise, someone that swore vengeance against a creature that killed her whole family (and clearly didn't succeed).

Winning some of them unlocks excerpts from Pulsian documents talking about Pulse vs. Cocoon's fal'cie and Vanille's and Fang's purpose.

They are a LOT like XII's Hunts.

They're similar but they fall victim of FFXIII's limited scope.

Yeah, I saw the Tonberry and Cactuar appearances. They are cute and amusing.

And now that reminds me of another nitpick. And it again, comes back to the little things. Why don't enemies have a death animation? Why do they just fade away? Didn't we move past that with FFVIII? Why do the monsters just fade away? That annoys me, a lot. I mean, with all the detail to visuals FFXIII has, why can't they have the Cactuar fall over in a dramatic, and hilarious style? Same with the Tonberry? I mean, its just...wtf?

 

[ForceStealer]

lol, honestly I didn't notice that. I guess that's true, ha.

I did have the same misgivings about the bare-bones-ness of the bestiary.

And I'm sure some of it has to do with the fact that I like XIII's battle system better (personal preference of course, and I'm not calling it perfect).

But I'm still not sure I see the huge disparity between the two Hunt systems, XII does have some standout ones of course (Gilgamesh being the biggest). ut I didn't feel any more or less engaged on most of them than I do here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It was one of the first things I did notice, cause one of the visceral thrills I get from winning a battle is seeing my opponent get KNOCKED DOWN, Garland style, in a crumpled heap.

I'm just like...wtf? You can make some of the sexiest looking females in FF history with all this graphical spooge you're dumping on the PS3's face, SE...but you can't make the enemies fall down dead? C'mon, guys!

The disparity in the hunts is there though. They're similar, and FFXIII had a good idea, and I'd have loved to see more of it. But its a victim of the whole "no towns, no NPC, etc" shtick. The backstory behind each hunt doesn't go far enough. It's a good start but not enough.

It's like a basic short story. The hunts of FFXII had a beginning, middle, end, and epilogue.

FFXIII's hunts were basically just beginning...and then you killing the monster. The end. It kinda leaves a bit more to be desired.

 

[ForceStealer]

I can see that, I just mean that even with the wrap-up, XII's Hunts didn't enthrall me much more than these did with the exception of some standouts. In fact, what I wonder about the Cie'th missions...is how old are they? They have to be damn old, right? How the hell are the monsters still around? lol

Thanks for the more candid discussion though, Mako. I'm glad we could both avoid the snarky remarks for an hour

 

[Makoeyes987]

I can see that, I just mean that even with the wrap-up, XII's Hunts didn't enthrall me much more than these did with the exception of some standouts. In fact, what I wonder about the Cie'th missions...is how old are they? They have to be damn old, right? How the hell are the monsters still around? lol

Thanks for the more candid discussion though, Mako. I'm glad we could both avoid the snarky remarks for an hour

See, I can be a nice guy.

It's just a matter of preference. I mean, not everyone is going to like FFXII and all it does. But for me (and other gamers) all those little things really make something stand out, and make me more invested in the game. I love things like that. FFXIII's Cie'th missions have a part of it, and I'll say that makes them better than just generic grind, but it still leaves me feeling hungrier. Especially with what could've been. I mean, yeah. You do have to wonder how old they are. They leave a lot of mystery and all, and that's cool. But then again, there should be more to let us have more meat in the experience.

 

[ForceStealer]

ha, I wasn't even mentioning that part as a positive...shouldn't the marks be dead?

See, I can be a nice guy.

I had forgotten

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well who knows what the physiology of monsters are in FFXIII. Maybe they have an extremely long life span? I'm not sure.

 

[Makoeyes987]

HEY MOG, REMEMBER THAT PROMISE YOU MADE?​

 

[Cat Rage Room]

WELL SHIT

Update #14: 36 Hours, 26 Minutes

I'm still plugging along on Chapter 11, so not much has changed. However, the general flow of the dungeons has changed; no more straight lines, and everything is really open. Pulse is gorgeous, and not just how it looks, either. While the basic formula is pretty much the same, dungeons are no longer a straight line disguised as a bunch of cliffs or trees. I sort of feel like there's a choice as to where I can go, and that's refreshing.

The battles are still challenging as well, which is also good. Every fight is a literal dance with death, and just like I predicted; the HP restoring after battle isn't a bad thing when the battle system is like Saga Frontier (read: a life or death situation most of the time). Also, one thing I appreciate is that status effects and enhancements will make or break you. Unlike previous FFs, Protect, Shell, Poison, and all that good shit isn't just 'nice to have', its damn near required a lot of the time. Not all of the time, but a boss being weak to a status ailment is definitely something you want to exploit, and the same goes for regular enemies. This was the case in FFXII and FFX, so its nice to see Square is learning from shit like Shell and Poison being shit you can take or leave with no consequence like in earlier FFs.

The story is still going. No MAJOR BREAKTHROUGHS yet, but it's at a calm point, and I get the feeling some big shit is about to happen. I have no complaints with the story so far.

So yeah! That's where I'm at right now.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Oh yeah, sidebar: Vanille looks like she's having an orgasm when she does her finishing move on her Eidolon Gestalt mode.

Seriously. She straight up looks like she's riding dick for those few frames of the animation. It's not just in my head either, me and any of you males here who've been in that position before know that facial expression. That shit wasn't by accident either. I literally had to do a double take and I literally SAID "what the fuck?"

 

[Lord Noctis]

Oh yeah, sidebar: Vanille looks like she's having an orgasm when she does her finishing move on her Eidolon Gestalt mode.

Seriously. She straight up looks like she's riding dick for those few frames of the animation. It's not just in my head either, me and any of you males here who've been in that position before know that facial expression. That shit wasn't by accident either. I literally had to do a double take and I literally SAID "what the fuck?"

She always did strike me as being a little over-eager.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It's like...not even something that I would consider up for interpretation. Her face, and just for that one second or so, looks like straight up cowgirl position dick riding orgasm face. It had to be intentional. It just had to be. It's not even subtle; I'm not usually one to find sexual innuendos in things, but that made me go "yo hold up a second".

I mean Christ, fanservice at its most obvious. It's not a gamebreaker scandalous huge deal or anything, but it's like...pretty tacky. First the suspiciously suspect battle cries/moans/squeals, then the Sailor Moon "look I'm naked" transformation sequence a few hours back, now this? Just when will this game stop trying to push Vanille as a sex symbol on me?

It's kinda tacky, bro.