General writing fiction discussion thrad.

[Skan]

@ Lic: Those would be your shipping goggles. There is zero shipping in the story. I think the only evidence that might hint towards shipping is Genesis being obsessive about Cloud, but that's just about on par for Genesis... She did write Cloud/Genesis in another story, though, so I can understand the confusion.

(Aside: Just for the record, I actually consider your stories well-reviewed.)

While I agree that porn and shipfic receive more attention overall, I think it's a mistake to assume that shipfic takes less effort or "talent" to write than genfic. Readers are more willing to forgive certain faults in shipfic, because the story scratches their kinks in other ways, so there's a lower ... quality threshold in order for it to receive attention, but good shipfic is just as good as good genfic.

Think about it this way: A lot of published books include romance. It's just hard to do well, if you don't have a good sense of balance. Most fics are not written to be well-balanced. Fanwriters are often much more interested in emotional development and consider plot secondary, such that a lot of the story can feel gratuitous if it's not well-structured.

---

Finally put this into words:

I understand that there is the feeling that one is "selling out" if one caters to the public for more views, but there's compromising the integrity of your story to appeal to the average fanfic reader, and there's ... not compromising the integrity of your story at all while providing more impetus for the average fanfic reader to actually read your story.

People like to make a ruckus about "writing for yourself," and yes, people should write for themselves, but nobody is going to convince me that they're publishing for themselves if they are posting their stories for public consumption. If you're posting it to public archives like FFN or AO3, it's 'cause you want people to see it. You want people to read it.

More reviews will lead to more views. Sure, you may call that shallow. Sure, you may not operate that way. But I very much believe that to be the reality, and there's a reason why it works that way. If you want more people to read it, then it's something to keep in mind. I have never heard someone say, "I won't read this story, because it has so many reviews," whereas I have heard people say, "I won't read this story, because it doesn't have any reviews." The former makes you think, "Oh, they must be doing something right," while the latter makes you think, "Well, I dunno if they're doing anything right."

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I'm kind of flip-flopping on this point that's been brought up. This, "writing for yourself".

On one hand, I can honestly say that if I don't get reviews on anything I've posted (or published), that won't stop me from writing. I write simply because it's part of who I am. I thoroughly enjoy it. The characters won't stop talking or acting out until I do (oh boy, does that make me sound crazy! Wait up, white coats, I'm on that train too, hehe!).

On the other hand, there's no denying the little thrill I get every time I read a review of my stories (especially the good ones).

So, on some level, there will always been that desire for public acceptance and adoration, but at the same time, it's not a necessity. Or at least it shouldn't be. I think if it becomes a necessity, that's when shit gets churned out, to appease a public notorious for short attention spans.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I write simply because it's part of who I am. I thoroughly enjoy it. The characters won't stop talking or acting out until I do (oh boy, does that make me sound crazy! Wait up, white coats, I'm on that train too, hehe!).

Don't worry you're in good company. The characters in my head do the same thing.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

(Aside: Just for the record, I actually consider your stories well-reviewed.)

Oh yeah, I totally agree. And I'm very lucky in my reviewers because they often give me quite substantial feedback. I'm not complaining at all!!

While I agree that porn and shipfic receive more attention overall, I think it's a mistake to assume that shipfic takes less effort or "talent" to write than genfic. Readers are more willing to forgive certain faults in shipfic, because the story scratches their kinks in other ways, so there's a lower ... quality threshold in order for it to receive attention, but good shipfic is just as good as good genfic.

Think about it this way: A lot of published books include romance. It's just hard to do well, if you don't have a good sense of balance. Most fics are not written to be well-balanced. Fanwriters are often much more interested in emotional development and consider plot secondary, such that a lot of the story can feel gratuitous if it's not well-structured.

I can't disagree with any of this.
I think any good story written by a talented and accomplished writer is going to find an audience. I have read some smut-fic that I thought was poetry. I think purefoysgirl (who wrote "Dog Will Hunt" and "Midgar the Soap" is an incredibly talented writer with a particular gift for writing incredible smut.

What I'm saying is that if you're in this to get attention and you're not very skillful, the way to attract readers is through smutty shipfic. I can guarantee you thhat if I wrote an absolutely brilliant genfic character study of Dot Pixis, and then wrote 2,000 words of purple prose describing Marco and Jean losing their virginity to each other while hanging from their £DMG gear, and then posted them both on AO3 (or tumblr), the smutfic would be way, way more popular. So for anybody looking to build up a following in a fandom it makes sense to write shipping smut.

I'm not denigrating shipfic or smut - I really don't have a leg to stand on there! But I love shipfic (about my own ships) and smut has a long, hallowed literary history; it's a perfectly bona fide genre, and being really good at it is not easy.

Finally put this into words:

I understand that there is the feeling that one is "selling out" if one caters to the public for more views, but there's compromising the integrity of your story to appeal to the average fanfic reader, and there's ... not compromising the integrity of your story at all while providing more impetus for the average fanfic reader to actually read your story.

People like to make a ruckus about "writing for yourself," and yes, people should write for themselves, but nobody is going to convince me that they're publishing for themselves if they are posting their stories for public consumption. If you're posting it to public archives like FFN or AO3, it's 'cause you want people to see it. You want people to read it.

More reviews will lead to more views. Sure, you may call that shallow. Sure, you may not operate that way. But I very much believe that to be the reality, and there's a reason why it works that way. If you want more people to read it, then it's something to keep in mind. I have never heard someone say, "I won't read this story, because it has so many reviews," whereas I have heard people say, "I won't read this story, because it doesn't have any reviews." The former makes you think, "Oh, they must be doing something right," while the latter makes you think, "Well, I dunno if they're doing anything right."

Professional writers have to cater to their public all the time, unless they are the J K Rowlings and George Martins of this world, but that's like winning the lottery.

I always thought it would be cool to be a ghost writer. All the fun of writing and none of the burden of doing book signings and promotional campaigns.

 

[Fangu]

I didn't have time to quote posts, so I wrote a block of tl;dr on the topic : D




It’s all about genre.

Fanfic as a genre, as I see it, is about writing and reading for comfort feels. Fanfic readers browse fics with specific wishes, usually to explore a universe, explore fandom, and highly probable: To be comforted. ‘Good’ fanfic writers understands these wishes and cater to them. Which means that since you have a certain type of reader looking for certain types of stuff, their feedback will be coloured by this. What they like, what they define as ‘good’, is decided by what they’re looking for when browsing.

But, writing for fandom, and using fandom’s feedback as guidelines, you need to be aware of the fanfic reader. Fanfic is a great sandbox to start out in when you want to write. It’s easy to find readers to motivate you. I would never have dared to write if I didn’t have people like Lic and Octo encouraging me when I first started writing fic back in 2012. Fanfic is easy to publish (on platforms such as FF.net and AO3). It’s easy to get into the labels. So basically it’s a great starting out point to learn about writing techniques, storytelling, tropes (all of which I file under “writing meta&#8221 because it’s so easy to get going.

At some point though, you might get bored with the comfort smut, and the comfort stories. You start looking for other challenges, a way to use fanfic as an access point to play with words.

This is the strength of fanfic.

I loosely divide the utilisation of writing in fanfic into ‘two worlds’:

- Writing for fandom, fandom exchange. This is where you have the option to get multiple reviews/favourtes/kudos, to get squee feedback.
- Writing for the experience, focusing on learning. This is where you usually end up getting little to zero feedback, but the feedback you DO get is invaluable beyond words.

In between these two lies the perfect middle point of being active in fandom, building a network with good writers, getting feedback, while still receiving the occasional squee when you feel like writing for that kind of feedback.

I want to tell you a story. When I first got ‘seriously’ into writing fandom fic last year, I discussed a lot of writing meta with an author I have the muchest respect for. (The fact that this author is also a senior programmer helps with said respect&#8230 We discussed a lot of writing meta on Tumblr. Occasionally I would fling out theories, this person would not be shy about their opinion, whether they appreciated it or corrected me.

This is the kind of person you learn from. Someone who is dead out honest without worrying too much on whether or not they’re going to hurt your feelings.

(I really believe the perfect situation is to have two mentors: One who builds you up, and one who smacks you down. You can have both these in one person, of course. To me, they have been two.)

This person had written a piece that reads as a smut/lust/desire fic, but is really about a knight’s shame. Half drunk one weekend evening, I read it and wrote your typical fanfic reader feedback: Ooh squee and so forth, but that was not what the writer had intended to say with that piece. Needless to say, I had no reply. My comment had no value for the author considering what the author was trying to do.

A bit later, this propelled a thought process in me. Looking at how I used to read fic and how I read it now (read as in, approach) there’s a huge difference. Previously I wrote and read fic for the fandom experience. I now read and write fic for getting better at writing. When I write comfort pieces now, the difference is that I’m aware of comfort fic as a genre - I still write squee, but I’m aware of the squee as a tool. I’m more aware of what the reader is looking for when browsing for squee.

That being said, reading and writing the squee is less interesting to me now. Squee is streamlined. It doesn’t challenge the reader, and it isn’t very challenging to write either. But - even comfort fic/ squee is a genre in itself that can be mastered. I do believe that the people who write the best squee, are people who are also capable of writing deep leveled gen fic. They understand what the reader is there to do when browsing fanfic. They’re not there to read advanced prose (although that’s a bonus). They’re there to experience fandom and be comforted.

Regarding ‘who you write for’, and feedback: I’ve been blessed to not have much feedback. Learning to write without demanding response - no, confirmation - has been a blessing. I’ve ranted on Tumblr so many times before about my struggles with deconstructing my view on my own visual art because as a child and teenager, I used it for a confidence boost instead of treating it as a subject I’d like to learn. Even drawing today, I focus way too much on the release - ‘will people like what I did to her gown?’ - instead of just focusing on my inner world, tapping into that peace and silence which writing has provided for me so well.

And so even if I wanted to cater to fandom, to receive their love and give love back, I’m not sure it would be a clever thing to do. I’m still at a point where I need to claw my own tunnel without fandom readers guiding me in a certain direction, because it’s the only way to learn, to keep going. To constantly reconfirm for myself that I’m doing this from inner motivation - because it gives me something from an internal POV - not because of the external appreciation.

tl;dr: Feedback isn’t always helpful. A large number of reviews indicates well liked fic that caters to fandom and fandom feels (often comfort).

- If you want a fandom feel read, go for the popular fics.
- If you want to use fanfic as a way to learn about writing and get better at writing, browse until you find authors you trust, and stay with them. Read everything they post, Gen including (especially Gen!). Approach them, talk to them, like through detailed reviews. If you’re lucky, you’ll reach the point where you’ll be discussing writing meta with them, and you’ll learn. (The two things I’ve learned from the most is writing, and writing about writing. Reading helps, but as long as you don’t have the tools to decipher the writing, it won’t give you as much as it would if you did.)

 

[Octo]

Just in case there was any confusion - I wasn't saying authors shouldn't enjoy getting reviews/kudos etc etc. Of course it's a nice feeling to know people have enjoyed what you've done (like the few times I've posted fanart - It pleased me that people liked it)

I suppose the problem is, we're increasingly in a world where people are chasing likes/thanks/thumbsup (on facebook, youtube etc etc) People are measuring their worth by these little throwaway numbers - actively chasing them, like how Lic described 'give me X reviews and I'll post more' That's why I don't put any stock in reviews.

Plus, I still don't see what's to stop people artificially bumping up their reviews, neither Ao3 or FF.net require you to sign in to review.

As for DIPTOP - it has 361 reviews - most of which were given before Lic went on hiatus - If there was any justice - she would have more than 5 times that amount, but most of Lic's reviews are well thought out. People have taken time over them instead of a brief squee that takes 3 seconds to type.

 

[Clement Rage]

It's easier to get feedback for fic that people like, but talent still stands out.

As for DIPTOP - it has 361 reviews - most of which were given before Lic went on hiatus - If there was any justice - she would have more than 5 times that amount, but most of Lic's reviews are well thought out. People have taken time over them instead of a brief squee that takes 3 seconds to type.

I think part of that is due to the fact that she usually replies.

So what's the plan now, Licorice? You going to retire from fanfic, or try a difficult second album?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm going to learn how to Art so I can make the illustrated version.

 

[Clement Rage]

Hmm... I've just discovered I've been plagiarising from you, actually, the most recent chapters in what I'm writing were meant to be 'A Day's Work' and 'A night out', which are part of two chapter titles in DIPOTP. Uh... oops.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's not really plagiarising, Clem - they're pretty common phrases. Anyway I stole the title of my fic from a 70s TV drama.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I didn't have time to quote posts, so I wrote a block of tl;dr on the topic : D

It’s all about genre.

Fanfic as a genre, as I see it, is about writing and reading for comfort feels. Fanfic readers browse fics with specific wishes, usually to explore a universe, explore fandom, and highly probable: To be comforted. ‘Good’ fanfic writers understands these wishes and cater to them. Which means that since you have a certain type of reader looking for certain types of stuff, their feedback will be coloured by this. What they like, what they define as ‘good’, is decided by what they’re looking for when browsing.

Yes, when the author's writing desires match with the reader's reading desires, then we have a "successful" fanfic in terms of garnering a large readership. Which is not unimportant.

But, writing for fandom, and using fandom’s feedback as guidelines, you need to be aware of the fanfic reader. Fanfic is a great sandbox to start out in when you want to write. It’s easy to find readers to motivate you.

Yes. This is so true. Until I discovered fanfiction my earlier writing efforts were carried in a feedback-free zone, unless I was writing something for public consumption (like that pantomime I wrote for the Kampala Amateur Dramatic Society). Now it's true that original fic can find its own followers on various websites, but I would actually never read original fic posted online. If I want something original I go to a bookstore. If I could get high quality FFVII fanfiction in a bookstore, I'd buy it.

I would never have dared to write if I didn’t have people like Lic and Octo encouraging me when I first started writing fic back in 2012. Fanfic is easy to publish (on platforms such as FF.net and AO3). It’s easy to get into the labels. So basically it’s a great starting out point to learn about writing techniques, storytelling, tropes (all of which I file under “writing meta”) because it’s so easy to get going.

I often wonder whether I would have finished DIPOTP if I'd never attracted any readers. I think I probably would, because for me the primary purpose of writing is the pleasure of writing.

At some point though, you might get bored with the comfort smut, and the comfort stories. You start looking for other challenges, a way to use fanfic as an access point to play with words.

This is the strength of fanfic.

Greenjudy, who is a writer I hugely admire as a stylist and a thinker, and whose fanfics are always about much, much more than some UST between Tseng and Reno, said (I wish I could remember her exact words) than being in a fandom and knowing other authors in it who are all writing about the same characters and themes is like being in a poet's circle of courtiers in Haian Japan, with everyone writing poems to the moon and circulating their work amongst one another for comment. I think that's the single biggest thing I love about writing fanfiction, and you can't get it from writing original fic. I love the fact that the people who are reading my story are all writing their own stories about the same characters. That just blows my mind sometimes.

When you say you "start looking for other challenges", do you mean you become more conscious of writing as a craft and you want to do it well for its own sake? It makes me think of the students I've taught who only want to draw manga figures and copies of their favourite cartoon characters (Oh god endless My Little Pony). Eventually they become competent at this, and then they begin to want to see what other things their pencil can do.

I loosely divide the utilisation of writing in fanfic into ‘two worlds’:

- Writing for fandom, fandom exchange. This is where you have the option to get multiple reviews/favourtes/kudos, to get squee feedback.
- Writing for the experience, focusing on learning. This is where you usually end up getting little to zero feedback, but the feedback you DO get is invaluable beyond words.

In between these two lies the perfect middle point of being active in fandom, building a network with good writers, getting feedback, while still receiving the occasional squee when you feel like writing for that kind of feedback.

Couldn't agree more. I could not have worked harder on DIPOTP if I'd been sending it off to an agent, but I really just feel like writing sloppy silly crackfic for a while now.

I want to tell you a story. When I first got ‘seriously’ into writing fandom fic last year, I discussed a lot of writing meta with an author I have the muchest respect for. (The fact that this author is also a senior programmer helps with said respect…) We discussed a lot of writing meta on Tumblr. Occasionally I would fling out theories, this person would not be shy about their opinion, whether they appreciated it or corrected me.

This is the kind of person you learn from. Someone who is dead out honest without worrying too much on whether or not they’re going to hurt your feelings.

(I really believe the perfect situation is to have two mentors: One who builds you up, and one who smacks you down. You can have both these in one person, of course. To me, they have been two.)

This person had written a piece that reads as a smut/lust/desire fic, but is really about a knight’s shame. Half drunk one weekend evening, I read it and wrote your typical fanfic reader feedback: Ooh squee and so forth, but that was not what the writer had intended to say with that piece. Needless to say, I had no reply. My comment had no value for the author considering what the author was trying to do.

A bit later, this propelled a thought process in me. Looking at how I used to read fic and how I read it now (read as in, approach) there’s a huge difference. Previously I wrote and read fic for the fandom experience. I now read and write fic for getting better at writing. When I write comfort pieces now, the difference is that I’m aware of comfort fic as a genre - I still write squee, but I’m aware of the squee as a tool. I’m more aware of what the reader is looking for when browsing for squee.

That being said, reading and writing the squee is less interesting to me now. Squee is streamlined. It doesn’t challenge the reader, and it isn’t very challenging to write either. But - even comfort fic/ squee is a genre in itself that can be mastered. I do believe that the people who write the best squee, are people who are also capable of writing deep leveled gen fic. They understand what the reader is there to do when browsing fanfic. They’re not there to read advanced prose (although that’s a bonus). They’re there to experience fandom and be comforted.

I agree. I also think I know that writer; I really like her work.

The word "comfort" keeps recurring as a concept you associate with both reading and writing fanfic. Is this comfort of a different kind from what one gets consuming any kind of original work - reading a published novel, watching a TV show, listening to music? (I can't say "going to the movies" because all the movies nowadays seem to be fanfic).

Regarding ‘who you write for’, and feedback: I’ve been blessed to not have much feedback. Learning to write without demanding response - no, confirmation - has been a blessing. I’ve ranted on Tumblr so many times before about my struggles with deconstructing my view on my own visual art because as a child and teenager, I used it for a confidence boost instead of treating it as a subject I’d like to learn. Even drawing today, I focus way too much on the release - ‘will people like what I did to her gown?’ - instead of just focusing on my inner world, tapping into that peace and silence which writing has provided for me so well.

You know, Fangu, I'm sure you'd have a much bigger following if you were writing in a big active fandom like, I don't know, Hannibal or Attack on Titan or SPN, or something like that. You're in a small fandom. But you know this.

And so even if I wanted to cater to fandom, to receive their love and give love back, I’m not sure it would be a clever thing to do. I’m still at a point where I need to claw my own tunnel without fandom readers guiding me in a certain direction, because it’s the only way to learn, to keep going. To constantly reconfirm for myself that I’m doing this from inner motivation - because it gives me something from an internal POV - not because of the external appreciation.

If the way you're using fanfic and the feedback you're getting, and the connections you've made, eg with this other author, are working for you and fulfilling the need that inspired you to take up the fanfic writing in the first place, then I think you are to be congratulated.

I have known some unhappy authors who were desperate for reviews and feedback and become really distressed and angry when they didn't receive the level of response they craved.

tl;dr: Feedback isn’t always helpful. A large number of reviews indicates well liked fic that caters to fandom and fandom feels (often comfort).

- If you want a fandom feel read, go for the popular fics.
- If you want to use fanfic as a way to learn about writing and get better at writing, browse until you find authors you trust, and stay with them. Read everything they post, Gen including (especially Gen!). Approach them, talk to them, like through detailed reviews. If you’re lucky, you’ll reach the point where you’ll be discussing writing meta with them, and you’ll learn. (The two things I’ve learned from the most is writing, and writing about writing. Reading helps, but as long as you don’t have the tools to decipher the writing, it won’t give you as much as it would if you did.)

This is wise advice.

I just want to add that I don't think there's anything "second rate" about feelgood fanfic, shipfic and smut as a genre; like anything else it can be written well or badly. My point, which Fangu kind of supported, is that if you want a lot of readers you go for something that will hit the fandom in the feels. And the easiest way to do that is by writing shipfic and smut.

 

[Skan]

The most rewarding writing I've actually ever done was after I took a break from fandom for 3-4 years and basically wrote for one other person, and then, after they became interested in other things, myself. It was useful, because I could hone in on areas I needed practice in while basically ignoring "audience," and I did that for a few years.

Fanfiction is something else entirely, though. I personally dislike writing for a public audience. It involves quite a bit of second-guessing, which can be good in some cases -- it's important to know how to tweak your story to make it more palatable for an audience -- but it can be counterproductive when you're the type to agonize over details, because then you start agonizing over how others will read your story, and how you can keep them from reading it this way as opposed to this other way.

I know part of the beauty of writing is its ambiguity, but when you're the writer trying to force the story to depict or show this particular thing, it becomes frustrating.

 

[Fangu]

Wow. I just read this comment on Reddit which is an 'insider' explanation, so to speak, about the author of 'Fifty Shades of Gray' and how she managed turning a Twilight smutfic into a best selling book. It touches upon a lot of the things we've been talking about re: popularity with fics.

This Erika is a PR genius. And definitely someone I'd have a hard time getting along with.

(Typing up a response, Lic, in a separate document)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, I read that. It was a real eye-opener. I guess if you value money and success over friends, then she's done well - but of course when you have money and fame, you can always find new friends.

 

[Skan]

I have heard similar "it's all marketing" accusations leveled at Naomi Novik, whose Temeraire series is -- let's face it -- pretty much Age of Sails fanfic, which is where she found her wind. Of course, there are a few differences: Novik still participates heavily in fandom today and is actually a decent writer. I suppose she shows that taking the other path is just as good from a marketing standpoint: her decision not to burn her bridges contributes pretty heavily to her popularity these days, esp. in fandom. (I personally discovered her separate of fandom and still found her a great read, but her later books don't hold up to her earlier ones.)

I've always been confused about why there is so much venom specifically directed at FSOG in fandom -- there are tons of terrible books out there that made it big and that glorify [insert idea/trait/action/whatever here that fandom disagrees with] -- but it makes more sense now.

EDIT: I guess it's kind of a controversial opinion to hold these days in fandom, but I personally don't believe an author should be held morally responsible for whatever lessons that a reader draws from their books, so the whole "IT'S BADLY PORTRAYED BDSM!" outcry from fandom makes me scratch my head. I mean, it's great if an author pays attention to what they are writing and considers the fact that they aren't writing in a vacuum, but at the end of the day, it's their story.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I find it strange that I'm having difficulty writing a sex scene between two of my original characters in my novel; yet, the sex scene I have between two fanfic characters won't stop rolling around (lol) in my head. Maybe because the first story is romantic, if humorous, while the second is dark and smutty? What's that say about me?

Dammit.

OT: anyhow, yes, writing fanfiction is often an exercise in either writing skills or pleasing fans. It's rarely both. I know this because I've written some sub-par stuff that was predictably "popular" (loosely said because I can't claim that much of my stuff is popular, per say) while other stuff, of much higher quality, remained in obscurity. This came down to two things: the characters involved and the length of the fic (or, rather, whether it was serialized or not). Once you come to this conclusion, as I had, it's not so frustrating.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe you need to write out the dark smutty scene and get it completely out of the way, and then tackle the more romantic, light-hearted sex scene?

 

[Dawnbreaker]

You're probably completely right. Alright, off I go, into dark, smutty land. If I come back a little shady you'll all know why. xD

 

[Skan]

I finished a thing! Woohoo!

 

[Fangu]

I relate to smut problematics. Often I need to stop and go 'this thing I'm trying to say, WHY am I saying it through smut?' Bc often smut ends up looking like fan (or author) service, and then I know it's time to rethink the entire scene. Sex scenes are meant to say something about the character(s), and often I find them to be too flat and comfortable (even when steamy). Dark sex scenes are meant to read as uncomfortable - and definitely not sexy. I often find they turn into kink. Too easy going down kink road X(

(On phone so this is terribly short)

 

[Dawnbreaker]

So I took Lic's awesome advice and just ran with that dark, smutty fic...and completed all twenty pages in one go. Wow. The dark caverns of my perverted mind...

No idea if I'll ever post it anywhere; it's a little vile, even for me. We'll see.

Anyways, after I finished that, I'm finding the other sex scene, for my original novel, is proceeding nicely.

Morale of the story: Listen to Lic, and let your inner pervert free, so that the rest of you can see the light of day too, eventually.


seriously, d00d, thanks! I didn't realize that would even work!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's like this:



and then this:



I love Oglaf. So funny, so smutty, and so true.

I'm glad my advice helped.

 

[Claymore]

So, I have a kind of self imposed writing block which I believe harkens back to my training in professional writing, and then worsened by taking up a profession as a freelance proofreader and editor. Ultimately, it has just made me become super critical of anything I write, and each sentence needs to be uber perfect before I can move on. I've been slowly making headway at breaking this, but it's been very slow going.

Anyway, I've recently been given two pieces of advice on how to conquer this. The first is to abandon writing in prose and write my idea in its entirety in a script format. The theory behind this is that by only really having dialogue to edit, I will have laid out the entire path of the story, including amending / tackling any problems along the way so that, when I do then go to turn it into a novel, I should hopefully not be so overly critical in my writing.

The second advice is to take on a co-writer. The theory behind this is that because I can edit / proofread other people's work quite efficiently and routinely, this should trick my mind since, though it's still my story laid out, someone else has written parts of it. Ultimately, that should hopefully also bleed through to my own parts.

I find the second advice quite intriguing over the first, and could see it potentially working (I can't honestly see the first working out - I still see myself being overly critical since I still have to lay out all the prose in what I perceive to be the perfect way, so all it would do is to help me completely lay out the story).

Does anyone have any experience working with a co-writer? Obviously, not someone random, but someone in your circle / fan space that you know. Pros and cons?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I have done co-writing with Cam (CameoAmalthea), where we each wrote a scene from a different character's viewpoint, and I've also done a little bit of RP. RP might work for you - it's just messing about, having fun, with no serious intent to polish and publish, but at the same time you get a little feedback and that's always an incentive to go on. RP doesn't work for me because I have to be in total control of any storyline I'm involved with - but if you like the idea of it there's loads of places you can find RP partners.

FWIW I did an Animal Farm RP with my Grade 8 class (on WordPress) and it really helped those who never wrote anything to get something out on - well, the screen, anyway.

 

[Claymore]

I have done co-writing with Cam (CameoAmalthea), where we each wrote a scene from a different character's viewpoint, and I've also done a little bit of RP. RP might work for you - it's just messing about, having fun, with no serious intent to polish and publish, but at the same time you get a little feedback and that's always an incentive to go on. RP doesn't work for me because I have to be in total control of any storyline I'm involved with - but if you like the idea of it there's loads of places you can find RP partners.

FWIW I did an Animal Farm RP with my Grade 8 class (on WordPress) and it really helped those who never wrote anything to get something out on - well, the screen, anyway.

Oh I've been involved in loads of RP in the past, lol. I can get things out in those circumstances no prob. If it's working on someone else's, or a group's work, there isn't an issue, but it's always the point when it comes to something completely my own, that's when the over-criticism kicks in and the block slams right into me. That's why co-writing was suggested.

How did you find that experience of co-writing? You mentioned that you find it hard not to be in complete control of your own writing, so how did you find having to give that up?