General writing fiction discussion thrad.

[Skan]

So this is kinda why I'm a huge proponent of scripting things before sitting down to actually write. Not outlining, but scripting, like you're writing a screenplay. If you think about it, you're basically writing the story but without paying attention to the actual prose, which can help you spot holes quickly before you dump too much time into the story, as it keeps you moving forward. Not to mention, it does absolute wonders for dialogue, and you can still change things when you start adapting it all to prose (and it often needs to be tweaked).

The only downside to it, I've discovered, is that it tends to mess up narrative rhythm occasionally, but that is a pretty small issue, all things told.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That sometimes works for me when the scene is dialogue heavy - get the dialogue right first, then add in the "stage directions", so to speak.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I have a question. I have finished DIPOTP*, and I have quite a few chapters to post. Does it make more sense to post them all at once or post a couple every three or four days? I know I would probably get more reviews if I spaced them out, but that isn't really my motivating factor.

(*momentous statement)

 

[Octo]

I have a question. I have finished DIPOTP*, and I have quite a few chapters to post. Does it make more sense to post them all at once or post a couple every three or four days? I know I would probably get more reviews if I spaced them out, but that isn't really my motivating factor.

(*momentous statement)

I need to take a moment here......

If you're happy with it, post it all in one go. But every day/other day would be alright too.

Speaking generally I'd prefer it if fic authors posted completed works, because so many get abandoned or whatever. Like so many times I see 'what do you think? if you like it I'll post more' Of course you want people to like it but should that be the sole motivator for a writer?

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Congrats! Good work!

Although it's fine either way you choose to go, as a reader I would find it kind of daunting to see all of it. So long as you post updates regularly it works well to incite interest but not overwhelm, imo.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

As a reader I would find it kind of daunting to see all of it. So long as you post updates regularly it works well to incite interest but not overwhelm, imo.

I was thinking that's how I would feel if someone suddenly posted a lot of chapters of a fic I'd been reading. Really daunted, and like I didn't have time for it.

I always finish everything I start. It may take me a long time, but I do. They say every author has one abandoned MS lying in their bottom drawer, and that's OK, but an ability to see a project through to its end and know when it's finished is vital, I think. I sometimes think fics are like relationships; when it hits a rocky patch it can be a lot easier to just abandon it than to work it out, but if you want the relationship to last you have to put the effort in.

I also think it's the kiss of death to go back and start tinkering with earlier portions before you've completed the whole. You can give yourself the illusion of progress that way, without ever actually getting anywhere.

 

[Octo]

The thing is, when you buy a book in a shop you don't go 'omg that book is so big/has soo many chapters' (unless you're a braindead moron ofc)

I suppose what I'm saying is, I don't get why people would feel obliged to read it all in one sitting. Given that everyone reads at a different pace/has different time commitments it makes the most sense to me to post everything, and then leave it up to the reader to ration themselves or not

Although I frequently stay up until 5 am reading and then wonder why I feel like shit the next day - thats just the sign of a good read innit?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

If you post them all at once, be sure to mention that you did and which is the first of the new chapters that you posted. It can be confusing otherwise.

 

[Octo]

And lets not forget, there will be people who haven't even read chapter 1 yet - you're not worried about them being overwhelmed are you?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's so long that I'd be really surprised to get new readers at this stage. I mean, I don't have the time to read something that long... But then that's because I'm so busy writing when I'm not working/mothering.... so maybe now.... War and Peace awaits!

 

[Octo]

If I remember right from your reviews you got a new reader last august*, granted not every reader will review. And also, I've started fics, read a few chaps and got into it and then realised that they haven't been updated in ages - there are probably other readers who only search for complete stuff, or stuff that has been updated recently because they don't want to make a commitment y'know?

Anyway, let the readers decide.

*big stalky weirdo that I am.

 

[Skan]

I would absolutely post it in chunks with maybe an A/N at the beginning saying it's already been completed, updates will come every third/fourth day/whatever.

Firstly, you will get feedback along the way and the option to correct small details that might've escaped your notice.

Secondly, I do think that people tend to get overwhelmed when a ton of chapters get posted at once.

Thirdly: I know you said you don't care about reviews, but keep in mind there are people who do use reviews to judge whether something is or is not worth reading. If you post everything at once, your review/comments/kudos/whatever per chapter ratio will plummet, and many people may not even give your story a chance, especially if it's long.

Also, Octo, I think most people generally have different expectations/tolerance points for fics vs. published books.

 

[Fangu]

the fuck, Lic

you are really done

o_O

 

[Octo]

That discussion on tumblr about the terminology of fanfic and its percieved legitimacy as a form of literature. On the face of it I was just thinking there wasn't that much difference, writing is writing. But I think the points raised here sort of illustrate the difference - fanfic writers are not only catering to a specific audience, but they have to second guess that audience and jump through all sorts of fucking hoops.

Like I have never looked at a fics reviews until after reading it.

My motivators for reading a fic (aside from porn ofc)

1)Is it a fandom I care about

2) Are they characters and/or a pairing I care about

3) Has it been tagged with anything that pisses me off/annoys me?

4) Assuming yes to 1 and 2 (and no to 3) - Is it well written, can I get through the first couple of chapters without cringing?

I never rely on reviews because most reviews don't really tell you anything, unless they're revealing plot details of course and why would I want that? For me the reviews are to express gratitude, and sometimes (it seems) people even try and shape the story 'oooh I hope x and y get together!'

I suppose what I'm saying is if people won't give a fic a chance due to lack of reviews/kudos/whatever then that's pretty shallow in my opinion. I mean I search every day for the newest fics, and loads of them haven't even been reviewed yet.

/getting a bit ranty here.

 

[Skan]

People have different fic-reading criteria. Not everyone has as much time or as much inclination to go clicking on every single fic that looks vaguely interesting just to check if they're actually worth reading. This is doubly true for long stories, because they're even more of a time-sink. You may call it shallow, but I'm sure others would say it's as good a way as any to quickly browse for fic that're worth reading.

As for hoop-jumping ... I don't know the discussion you're alluding to, but I'd say that both fanfic writers and published authors have a ton of hoops to jump through. They're just different hoops.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

See, as others mentioned, there's a difference between a book you buy and a fic you find. If I buy a book I'd feel obligated to read it, even if it didn't meet my standards, because I'd feel like I didn't get my money's worth otherwise. A fic I find on-line is just there, cost-free. So I'd feel less obligated to read it unless the quality convinced me to.

I definitely agree with mentioning that it's a completed work and that the rest of the chapters will be posted at regular intervals, if you're going that route. That way if people feel a bit wary because they worry they'll get into a fic that will never be finished, well, you'll free them of that.

 

[Fangu]

no no no don't start interesting conversations when I've gone to bed

blasted

I have lots to say on this topic

hurrr tomorrow then

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Hurr hurr I could do that thing where "if you want the next chapter you need to give me fifteen reviews telling me how awesome I am..." thing. It's a mindset that fascinates me. I guess they feel there's no point in wasting their time if other people are not enjoying it.

 

[Octo]

I dunno, it's not that much effort to me to read the first paragraph or so, no more than reading the blurb on the back of a book in a shop. Maybe I'm very fine tuned to it all, but I can usually tell if a fic is going to be shite pretty quickly

The discussion was about how the terminology of fanfic differs from mainstream fiction 'one-shot' instead of 'short story' - even the fact that it will be called 'fic' instead of just a story/novel. And why that might be - is it because fanfic writers are trying to distance themselves from mainstream fiction, or are not comfortable describing their work in mainstream terms in case they get accused of pretension or something?

But I guess the bottom line is, as an author are you writing for yourself primarily? It could be argued that fanfic writers aren't having to make a living from their work, so that should allow them more freedom. I just don't think people should be trying to please others all the time, because whenever that happens (in whatever creative sphere you care to think of) you just end up with blandness.

I've read some pretty mediocre stuff, with hundreds of reviews all saying 'OMGs this was soooo kwaiii I luv Reno lololol ' or some other useless crap, and then there are genuinely good fics that don't have loads of reviews, because they weren't written by a 13 year old who got all her facebook friends to comment or something. It's just not reliable. Hell- in the time it takes to wade through the reviews you could have just read a few paragraphs

Having said all this, I've noticed Ao3 seems to have far better quality fics compared to FF.net. I don't know if that is deliberate or what - because even I have an account there that I haven't used - so it's not like they're vetting people.

 

[Skan]

@ Lic: It's just insecurity manifesting itself, especially in younger writers. Writing is very personal to most people, and when they put it out there, they expect something more than silence. There's little else more discouraging than getting no attention for your work whatsoever, especially if you only recently started writing.

My main point is simply that I think you flat-out lose more if you post it all at once. There's pretty much no advantage to throwing it all out there. Yeah, some readers only read completed works. But your fic will be posted in its entirety eventually, because you already finished it, right? In that case, you'll get those readers when you finish posting the last chapter. No loss there.

The only advantage to posting it in one chunk is to get it off your chest. If you think that's worth the potential loss of attention(?), then sure, go ahead.

--


@ Octo: It still takes a lot less time to check well-reviewed fics for quality than it does to check the non-reviewed fics for quality, if only because there are fewer well-reviewed fics than non-reviewed fics.

I will also say that well-reviewed fics obviously have something going for them. Yeah, a lot of them flat-out suck, a lot of them are mediocre, but the author must have done something right to get that much feedback period, whether it be humor, porn, characterization, whatever. I would personally never have read "The Fifth Act" (and held off on it for months) except that it was recommended everywhere and well-reviewed, because time travel isn't my thing, and the first chapter was mediocre (IMO). It was great, though; I'm glad to have read it.

As for FFN: It's just much more well-known in the fanfic world. If you search "fanfiction," it's the first hit, while AO3 is buried in the middle of the page with a name that doesn't make it sound fanficcy. So FFN's where people go when they first start writing fanfic. It's like dA, except for fanfiction. Also, if I'm not mistaken, AO3 still requires invites?

 

[Clement Rage]

I prefer the format of fanfic.net. AO3 has way too many tags.

Holy crap, it's done? Congratulations, that was one hell of a journey. Honestly, I'd prefer the updates to be several weeks apart. I'm willing to wait for a good thing, I still haven't finished the Wire years after I first saw it because I can't ever watch it for the first time again.

Irrelevant note: I find that the fics I put the most work into get fewer reviews, because people prefer the lighthearted stuff.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Porn gets more reviews than anything else. If I wanted a thousand happy customers I'd be writing Attack on Titan porn. Ah, humanity, why are you so predictable? Yet still Erwin Smith is trying to save you...

... Or is he?

 

[Skan]

Popular fics are those that effectively convey the author's squee in a way that is compatible with the way that fandom likes to read squee. That often involves humor, porn, and angst, but not always: "The Fifth Act" is the most reviewed fanfic on FFN in FF7 fandom. It's gen.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That is true, but it is also extremely clever and well-written. Even if it does, IIRC, ship Cloud with Genesis. If you don't have Sinnatious' talents and you want a lot of reviews, you write porn in a popular fandom for popular pairings.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I never pay attention to reviews. Mostly because I like the world-building, non-romantic relationship development side of fan-fiction and most people don't like to read/write those types of fan fics.

Although usually when those types of fics are written, they tend to be written a lot better then most fan fiction is and I usually end up re-reading them several times.