General writing fiction discussion thrad.

[Fangu]

Re: comments and likes/favourites/kudos on fanfiction as motivation, I wrote a long rant on it here. My conclusion is that people who review/enjoy fanfiction on certain fanfiction sites might be into it/ might give a different type of criticism than the one received in workshops and similar.

Comments to me should be about developing your skill with the craft, not simply an ego boost.

Fanficiton often becomes that ego boost. Now, as I address in that linked rant, this might just be me being jealous of people who get 9,999 comments on their stuff, but then again... I'm really glad I'm getting into the craft instead of being in it for the praise, if you know what I mean. Feedback is a fickle thing. You need to be careful about putting too much energy into it.

In other news: I typed up a very long post today called 'Evolution of a sex scene' which basically presents five different versions of a scene that took me forever to work out. I'm really proud of that post, one because I think it's a decent write up, second because I see a lot of improvement re: my thoughts on the writing process, with what works and what doesn't. I haven't arrived at the station yet but I feel like I've made some progress in trying to find a way.

 

[Clement Rage]

You don't ever arrive. It's just a matter of keeping going.

As to comments... they're nice, and they make a difference, but I was never writing completely for the praise. Looking at my abandoned projects, two of them died because of the feedback I got, one is technically still in progress but stopped because I stopped liking the story, and two stopped... for no particular reason.

The comments I got the most for tended to be the light, comedic or romantic stuff. The projects I sank time into were less popular, and if you're writing for something fewer people are interested in, you have to dazzle with the writing, which I could never do. I most likely won't stop writing for want of comments, but it's always nice to get some. The problem I run into is thinking 'did I earn that?' if someone reviews right after I review their stuff.

 

[Cabaret]

The problem I run into is thinking 'did I earn that?' if someone reviews right after I review their stuff.

Yeah I used to get the same feeling. I used to write a lot of fanfic and I felt very empty when I'd get comments that were just 'Amazing, great, cool ya'. It felt like the person was just commenting to be seen commenting. But then I should be grateful for any comments I guess.

I know I sometimes get very paranoid about trivial shit, and I also know I put too much stock in comments - I read my lecturers comments over and over again and feel validated by their comments then forget them a few days later as if they never happened. I also crush on this in teaching, I sometimes thik I only do a good job cos I can't bare not being 'the best' - whatever that is?! It's the same when I play harmonica/sing live, I love the comments people give me after and love feeling like a star, then feel hollow straight after when the bar shuts and we all go separate ways. Mind you there are a lot of other days when I CBA to do anything in the public eye no matter how many comments I would be given.

I think I'm just a fickle fucker!

I feel like I should write some fan fiction again - is there somewhere on this site where I could access character bios/backstories or something that gave you the bones to write with, if say, you had never played the FF games before but liked the story of the games?
(My secret's out, I'm the cuckoo in your nest guys! )

 

[Fangu]

I feel like I should write some fan fiction again - is there somewhere on this site where I could access character bios/backstories or something that gave you the bones to write with, if say, you had never played the FF games before but liked the story of the games?
(My secret's out, I'm the cuckoo in your nest guys! )

Hmm. I don't know really - I'd watch 'movie playthroughs' on YouTube probably - where people have put together only the cutscenes of the game. But if you look at the 'movie' for XII, for example, it's almost 7 hours long. The best is of course to play the game and experience that 'omg!' for yourself. Like, I follow a lot of people who enjoy writing on Tumblr who are into the Dragon Age games. I've started playing the first one because to understand their stories, I need to understand the DA universe. But the first game is kinda tedious, so... I'm considering jumping straight to the second as it's apparently a lot better in terms of characters and story - also that's the one of the two most similar to XII.

But yeah I don't know if there's 'a way around' with fanfic. You could read backstory fanfic, perhaps, but I don't know the fandom(s) nearly good enough to recommend any. Also I'd pick a fandom that's still alive. XII's is kind of deadish, but VII is pretty much still alive.

I know I sometimes get very paranoid about trivial shit

I'm just gonna take this out of the blue and apply it to what I'm feeling right now. So it took me a long time to type out that Evolution of a sex scene thing. I've had three likes and one mention, but neither of them says anything on whether they agree with the choices I made along the way. I know it probably just means 'that post was too long to read but here's a Like for your effort' or 'yeah that makes sense' but I'd love for someone to say 'you know what, you're not there yet. That final scene feels cold and matter of factly and it's missing something that was there in the other ones'. Sometimes it's just hard trying to convey what you really want feedback on... while at the same time you can't force people to spend their time on your stuff. I could perhaps have solved this by putting in a question near the end of the post, idk.

May ray of hope is that the most wicked females I follow haven't Liked it, which is usually what they do when they have no comment to make. One of them is exactly my type: She'll hand it straight to you if she thinks your wrong, sometimes in the harshest of ways - but that's what I need, and want. I don't really respect people until they've properly offended me once, lol. (In an adult way, not that dickish childish juvenile 'omg your pants are ugly olol' type of thing.)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No Fangu it's because I'm waiting for my day off to reply to it.

 

[Fangu]

May (sic) (also haha) ray of hope is that the most wicked females I follow haven't Liked it, which is usually what they do [Like things, as kind of a 'marking an end' because you can only Like a post once] when they have no comment to make. [= meaning there might be comments heading my way because lack of Likes.]

YAY MY THEORY WAS RIGHT YAYYY take all the time you want Also haha this is me when I have time off, I forget that there's a world going on outside where people have to work and sleep

 

[Octo]

I can reply from memory. (warning incoming rambling)

Personally - and bear in mind that I am a massive pervert - that the final version is good, but I'd want (as a reader of a mature+ rated fanfic) a bit more graphicness to the sex scene. Cos what you've done there is kind of like a fadeout.

Does a graphic sex scene add anything to the characters? I think it can depending on how it's written - cos there are all different kinds of fucking after all - and the nature of it depends on the characters and where they're 'at' in a relationship and all sorts of stuff. eg: In a war situation theyre might me a sense of urgency, the characters might not have an 100% established connection, caution is thrown to the wind.

Plus like how a character fucks is as much a part of their personality as anything else

Spoiler

Like that Tseng/Elena you wrote - yeah it was a smutfic but it could have worked in the context of a wider plot - Elena isn't some damsel in distress - shes going to get what she wants and shes in control in that situation - even down to having responsibility for her own orgasm

I guess what im saying is you shouldn't necessarily feel like a 'money shot' for want of a better word - is going to cheapen your work. (not saying you do exactly)

In other types of media - film and tv they can't really show sex - not properly - so the most we get is the characters kiss and the audience whoops, or they fuck but its all tastefully choregraphed and unless its a particular kind of film you dont really get an idea of what theyre actually doing. It gets left to the imagination.

Another thing, I think a well written - realistic - sex scene can create a stronger connection to the characters. The smut I used to read - I go back now and its laughable - probably because the writer hasn't even had sex and is just speculating on how they think sex is. An awful lot of fics are like this and its the same problem as the films and tv. It's just a sort of sanitised 'flowery' thing and it disconnects you from the characters if they're having 'perfect' sex - because who does really?

So yeah I have rambled from the point quite a bit. TLDR : I'd always prefer a full on sex scene, its a more satisfying payoff - not just physically but emotionally - I don't think we should divorce the two because they are connected.

Like I was saying the other day - I can't enjoy smut if I don't give a shit about the characters. I'm not going to read over 9000 Legolas smutfics because I don't really care about him. But I'm sure there are plenty of well written fics out there. So it's not just down to the smut alone.

I probably haven't answered the question here. I'm just giving the perspective of a (pervy) reader. A writer might have a totally different outlook

 

[Fangu]

Oh you've answered it, definitely! First of all thank you Also, what you write aligns with my version of it - I guess I was too scared of letting the characters be, how do I put this... some kind of fanservice? While that's looking at it from the wrong angle, because even for the reader enjoying a good sex scene, it's not the 'enjoying porn' type of thing, it's... watching them discover each other after such a long time. idk. Yeah a writer might have a different outlook... but then there's the part about writing things you'd like to read yourself, you know? UUGH HARD!

The story is T+ by the way... but it's a mature story with mature elements so I'd have no problems putting more juice into it.

I'm kind of conflicted about this because I've actually written an entire piece of smut with these two particular characters (like - it's 4000 words or something consisting of nothing but sex) so I know what their sex life is like when they've been together for some time. Maybe I just haven't truly figured out yet what their first time would be like??!

Maybe I need to dive back into it and look at it from each their angle. It's easy enough from B's angle because his wants regarding F is so straightforward and I feel like I understand his forty year old self pretty well - with F there's the risk of the dreaded self insert. Like, my immediate thought is always that she wants to lick his beard or something, and then the warning signs are flashing FANGU IT'S BECAUSE *YOU* LIKE THE TASTE OF BEARD so it's - ugh - writing her has been a pest at times because she is *me* on so many levels.

I think that's the challenge, really. The female's perspective. That's what I'm struggling with.

 

[Octo]

Well we all like the taste of beard

I mean I don't know that much about Fran and Balthier (because I havent gotten out of the goddamn desert grumble grumble) - I get the impression he's not a million miles away from Han Solo. And then Fran is a juxtapostition as shes a hyper-sexy bunny woman, but her personality seems to be no-nonsense, aloof. So I imagine it would be a lot of fun there. I mean, of Balthier is the kind of guy he seems to be, it must be incredibly hard (heh heh) to work/live with a stunningly beautiful kick-ass woman who wears sexy gear all the time. I imagine their first time would have him doing a 'Forrest Gump'

But yeah, I should really play the game I think.

 

[Fangu]

Hahahahahaha omfg hahahaha so I sat down to revisit the scene as an exercise and this happened.

Spoiler

“Fran, you have grown too thin,” Balthier mumbles against her neck, a hand gently covering the ribs on her back.

“I am the same Fran,” Fran says, reconfirming her grip around his neck.

“Not quite,” he says, a tensity to his words she understands all too well. She breathes in the scent of his skin, the mix of sweat and warmth tickling her nostrils in a most comfortable way. Gently she releases him to again look for traces of doubts on his face.

For moments they do nothing but stare at each other, Balthier's eyes travelling over Fran's face as if looking for something, Fran frozen, completely undecided concerning her next move - there are no next moves, all there is is the steady beating of his pulse, gently humming in her ears.

Slowly Balthier lifts a hand to push strands of hair away from her face, smiling as if he has finally found what he was searching for. Fran feels warm then, her skin content against his shirt. She exhales softly as her eyes close to open only halfways.

"I'm hungry."

THE GIRL HAS BEEN MISERABLE AND HAVE BARELY EATEN FOR WEEKS FFS

 

[Fangu]

............actually, I continued on that particular piece. I went from Hungry to Handjob, lol. Possibly more.

Spoiler

A prototype Archadian fighter as she is, the Strahl had it in her to take them high, higher than most ships will fly, yet never high enough to touch the stars. Similar to a black sky separating earth and stars, Fran always wisely kept her distance to Balthier, insisting there be space between them. Now that earth and stars have met, it should feel different than what they have shared before, and yet, it does not. There is a comfort to his smell, to his touch, a familiarity that Fran did not expect to find.

“Fran, you have grown too thin”, Balthier mumbles against her neck, a hand gently covering the ribs on her back.

“I am the same Fran,” Fran says, reconfirming her grip around his neck.

“Not quite,” he says, a tensity to his words she understands all too well. She breathes in the scent of his skin, the mix of sweat and warmth tickling her nostrils in a most comfortable way. Gently she releases him, and for moments they do nothing but stare at each other, Balthier's eyes travelling over Fran's face as if searching for something. Fran stays still, completely undecided concerning her next move - but there are no next moves, all there is to find is the steady beating of his pulse, thumping gently in her ears.

Slowly Balthier lifts a hand to push strands of hair away from her face, smiling as if he has finally found what he was looking for. Fran feels warm then, her skin content against his shirt. She exhales softly as her eyes close, then halfway open.

"I'm hungry."

Balthier snorts a laugh, the sweetest thing Fran has heard in a very long time; she can't help sneering happily. "Come on then," he says, releasing her to grab her hand, heading for the opening of the tent.

"No," Fran says, holding him back.

The look he shoots her sets her ears on fire, her limbs gone heavy, her palm sweaty against his. She needs not word her plea. Balthier has seen faces as hers many times before, many years ago, when hunting for female company was a way for him to pass time - time now having passed, too much of it. Fran leads his hand to the small of her back, pressing her chest against his, his lips parting, his eyes heavy. She kisses his cheek gently at first, causing a shudder and a swallow. “Fran,” he says, coarse almost, as if he is saying her name for the very first time - she kisses him on the lips then, very briefly, giving him the chance to retire - but the next moment his tongue is in her mouth, Fran again reminded how Balthier would never deny her anything.

They kiss until the sun is setting and their bones have grown tired. "Let me stay," Fran says, straws of hay poking into their skin a few short moments later. Staring at Balthier in the dark, Fran takes his hand to caress it, gently suckling on his knuckles, his fingers. When she slips his hand down into her garb, her breathing is already far beyond unsteady.

The tent is completely dark when Balthier settles with his head against Fran’s shoulder. His finger moves lazily to caress the soft skin above her breast. “I do wonder”, he murmurs, “how it is possible to be so completely content and so completely miserable at the same time.”

The hand resting on his back moves to embrace him, to comfort.

They lay like this for some time, fingertips travelling over skin while listening to the Chocobo eating its Greens. “Do you think he enjoyed the show?” Balthier snickers. When the bird tucks his beak under his wing to sleep, it is without Balthier’s knees nudging him in the back.

Actually, I think this works out.

And now I'm gonna stop spamming this thread and go work on something else.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I'm curious (and would like the input): how do you create a convincing antagonist? I mean with a protagonist it's not so difficult to takes parts of yourself that you think are qualities and put them in your characters...or use qualities that you like in other people. But to create a convincing antagonist you'd have to select which values are not so good, and how do you make that believable? People are not randomly vile, vicious and rude...are they? What reasons could they have to be such? Maybe it's the altrustic side of my brain talking but to me that doesn't make a lick of sense.

How do you create someone who is both hate-inspring and believable?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Usually the most realistic villains I see are the ones who have normalish desires, but who pursue them at the cost of most other things. On there own, the desires they are following aren't bad, but the way villains pursue them is. What often gives villains there personality is what they value enough to not sacrifice for their greatest desire.

Example: What Hojo desires the most is knowledge, which isn't a bad thing of itself. What makes him a villain is that he's willing to do literally anything to get that knowledge.

 

[Joker]

Additionally, protagonists don't always have to be good, altruistic, and paragons of justice and morality. Flaws and dark spots make them more interesting and believable as characters - nobody's perfect - and, more to the point, who says the protagonist has to be the 'good guy' in the story? There's also things like antiheroes (main characters who lack obviously heroic traits).

As for antagonists, it's much the same. It's more believable (and interesting!) to have antagonists who aren't rotten to the core (although obviously in some cases that's also really good). There's people who do the wrong thing for the right reasons, and people who do the right thing for the wrong reasons (this outlook can result in villainy and antagonism without being blatantly evil - like your personal rival or somethnig [like Seifer before he went all Knight-ish]).

Then you have the sympathetic villains, and the villains who are actually heroes, and the heroes who are actually villains...

 

[Octo]

I've discovered a new hate in fanfic. When people write childrens dialogue with a speech impediment. Rweely?..I mean Really? Is there any lazier way to say 'this is a child speaking'? It's annoying as hell.

 

[Clement Rage]

Is it just me, or are authors that have gone through true suffering more likely to write happy endings?

Edit: I should probably specify that I mean 'Is it just me that thinks this?', not a commentary on my experiences.

 

[Octo]

^ I dunno cos all i read is porn I guess you could argue that most fanfic writers are quite young and therefore less likely to have had negative life experiences. Plus i guess theres a leaning towards melodrama.

I mean, Ive never finished a fic, but I cant imagine not having a good ending - and if i didnt that story would be a 'to be continued' I havent had anything too terrible happen to me - relatively speaking - but I am a miserable piece of shit, so I do crave a happy ending.

 

[Cabaret]

Is it just me, or are authors that have gone through true suffering more likely to write happy endings?

People who go through tough times and have not emotionally come to terms with it are more likely to seek comfort in creating a worlds with just consequences - ie the hero always wins and the baddie always gets what's coming. However, what the person interprets as just could become very twisted, depending on their trauma, how they deal with it, their beliefs and a billion other factors.
EG a hero who makes a mistake may well be punished for that mistake in a sad ending, this could be a result of someone blaming themselves for the suffering they have experienced, or low self esteem or simply someone who likes an unconventional ending.

In short, it's very hard to make assumptions about authors and their experiences. People rarely follow any kind of predictable pattern when it comes to imagination. A good author will do what's right for the story and not be ruled by their personal issues.

Just my opinion though.

Regarding antagonists, I think of a reason why a person would do something then patch together the personality or motivation that would make them blind or uncaring about wrong doing. However I find creating a believable antagonist very hard indeed, I think my best ones have been comedy ones :/

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Half of my stories (fanfiction or originals) have truly happy endings. The others are either open-ended, half-resolved and bittersweet...or the endings are unspeakably dark and depressing. I think this represents life--not all of the stories get a happy ending, and some can end up quite horrible. I go with what I think flows best in the story, according to the character's behaviour, and oftentimes the ending comes naturally to me. Occasionally, though, I've changed it. Not for sentimental or shock value, however. Sometimes the piece just fits.

Back to the antagonist: It is indeed true that not every antagonist is a villian and not every protagonist is a hero. In one of my stories I have waiting in the wings (and there's so fucking many!) the main protagonist is not a particularly good person, though he does have some understandable, if twisted, reasons for his actions. I think a flaw or two in a character, both protagonists and antagonists, really fleshes them out; makes it easier to know just what challenges they should face.

In my current novel (almost done, wooooooot!) all the protagonists and antagonists have some sort of flaw, be it excessive lust, unwillingness to trust, control issues or greed. In fact, the major characters have more than one. But the same time they have qualities too--courage, compassion, desire to improve the lives of those they know, and kindess.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Back to the antagonist: It is indeed true that not every antagonist is a villian and not every protagonist is a hero..

Just look at Macbeth.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I wrote a really fun scene last night. Involved piercing and fluids...

...Not what you're thinking.

anyways, it was great fun and I'm thrilled to be nearing the end of this novel. I feel like I learn so much everytime I write one.

 

[Skan]

Working on some Genesis backstory. I must say I have never written a character so hated by fandom that I actually feel insecure writing him as someone who is not totally evil. Like, Sephiroth? Pffft, he's nothin'; I can turn him into a flower-carrying pansy, and almost nobody would raise an eyebrow. Genesis makes me twitchy as hell, though.

It's that weird area where ... you're afraid that what you are writing will be taken by some readers as absolving characters for their crimes, when the reality is that it just doesn't function like that. I can write all about Sephiroth having a shitty as fuck childhood, but of course, that doesn't excuse his later rampage; it just (hopefully) explains it. Hell, I can even write a tragic Hojo backstory, and almost nobody would mistake that as me trying to absolve him for all the shit he's done. But because of the way Genesis is perceived and treated in fandom, it just makes me so damn nervous.

 

[Octo]

^I know what you mean. I mean, yeah I hate Genesis. I don't think SE made him an interesting or sympathetic character at all. So when I see someone has written a fic about him I think 'how can they even like the guy enough to write about him?' Because the best thing he's got going for him is his looks, so I kind of assume that it's just going to be fangirly nonsense y'know?

So I dunno, maybe you could put a disclaimer, a sort of 'read without prejudice' or 'SE did a crappy job with Genesis, this is my take on what could have been' something like that maybe?

 

[Fangu]

I have so much I want to share with you guys in this thread and get your feedback on but I already posted most of it on Tumblr and I don't want TLS to be just a copy pasta from Tumblr :/

I might anyway though - Tumblr is either 50 notes or 2, rarely reblogs - it all depends on who's online atm and THESE ARE SUCH INTERESTING TOPICS OMG

Last one was fanfic as fanfic vs fanfic as fiction and different reasons for doing one or the other, particularly (but not exclusively) in relation to show vs tell. I need to rraannntttt

 

[Clement Rage]

I don't quite get the hate for Genesis, I didn't particularly enjoy him, but I didn't particularly hate the guy.

My favourite interpretation is that he works himself to the bone to be the best,, but still always comes up just a little short no matter what.