Guessing Game: Where will Part 1 end?

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

There certainly ought to be changes in that regard. Midgar being a closed city with one entrance to the slums that some guy locked up before going on an excavation tour doesn't really hold up with the worldbuilding in any way.

While I completely agree that how the original handled later access to Midgar is borderline nonsensical, I also think it would be bad to remove the fence or provide other ways of easy access. Shinra might want to contain the filth in the slums in order to keep outsiders from knowing about the bad situation below. Additionally it's also a security issue. With easy access to the slums, It would be much harder to control citizens and travelers alike.

I'm on the fence regarding your other 2 points. I agree with you, though I don't want to dismiss my view either. Both sides have merit and detriments.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because they physically can't enter Midgar without some sort of key (if there are no changes in that regard of course). They're also wanted criminals and Shinra knows they're alive, unlike after the Plate Fall. Returning to Midgar would be a bad idea. Whereas just running back the way you came from (exit the Shinra building and go back down into the slums) only violates the immediate story objective.

Either way, we're talking about continuing to explore Midgar from its immediate outskirts, whether that be the end of the highway or the wastelands a rope ride down from the end of the highway. The crew are also just as much outlaws at both points in the story.

There's not really an appreciable difference in either game design or narrative violation. Hell, if anything, there's more immediate narrative violation in them heading right back into the city from which they were just pursued while escaping!

Just make Red XIII a guest character and not playable. Sure, it's not deal, but I'd rather them taking this one liberty as opposed to screwing with storytelling and gameplay pacing. Besides, if Yuffie joins before Junon, it would be the same situation. Unless they delay her appearance to the western continent.

Yuffie does present a comparable challenge, but her situation can at least be mitigated by just sticking a forest near Kalm or the Chocobo Ranch. She then becomes present for more story beats along the way to the cargo ship, and potentially even improves upon the logic of her decision to stick with Cloud and co. after the nightmare fuel that was the boat ride.

Regardless of where part 1 ends, when Yuffie's turn to enter the story does come, if she still joins immediately before the team enters Junon to take a Lovecraftian boat ride -- but then doesn't peace out the moment they land in Costa del Sol ... it's going to challenge the verisimilitude of why she's with them.

Without at least a little massaging somewhere of when/where she joins, her continued presence probably isn't going to feel like it makes a whole lot of sense after the horror movie they walked her into a couple of hours after she met them.

Bringing this back around to Red XIII: I believe there's a lot less room to accommodate the needs of the game as a game if he's handed to us just before the credits roll on part 1.

See Kain424's response. I highly expect them to significantly change up the escape from Midgar.

It could be a huge blowout, with a massive fight. You get the fight with Rufus, Barret and the others fight another machine. But there's no reason it couldn't be even bigger. If they handle the motorcycle bit right, it could be a blast of an ending, regardless of the motor ball battle. The point is, the Shinra-as-main-villain arc ends pretty well. If they build that right in the beginning, it's a pretty decent end.

All these same points and ideas for expansion could be applied to Rufus's welcoming ceremony.

Hell, Junon arguably serves as more effective an end to the Shin-Ra-as-main-villain arc than leaving Midgar because a) Sephiroth actually makes his first appearance as an enemy of the player on the cargo ship; b) the player actually fights a main boss unrelated to Shin-Ra here; and c) it's not until after this that the party actually stops running into Shin-Ra for a good long while.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

Either way, we're talking about continuing to explore Midgar from its immediate outskirts, whether that be the end of the highway or the wastelands a rope ride down from the end of the highway. The crew are also just as much outlaws at both points in the story.

I think you misunderstood. In regards to backtracking, I'm not talking about the end of the escape but about anytime before the point of no return in the Shinra Building before the group gets captured.

Regarding backtracking into Midgar from outside, that's not only a problem from a storytelling perspective but also accessibility. If it was that easy to enter the Midgar slums by foot from outside, this would be a huge security and image issue for Shinra, who better shield the outside from the filth in the slums and make sure nobody can just waltz in undetected. Hence the big fence all around the slums.

Bringing this back around to Red XIII: I believe there's a lot less room to accommodate the needs of the game as a game if he's handed to us just before the credits roll on part 1.

That's why he needs to be a guest character, or maybe just an NPC who tags along during the end game, kind of like Magilou has been handled in approximately the first half of Tales of Berseria.

If part 1 ended with Jenova Life, I think Yuffie should be moved to part 2. Too little time for her development, even if she joins around the Chocobo Farm. There's only Fort Condor (minor location) and Junon (major location) for her to develop (story and gameplay) and that's too late in my opinion.

All these same points and ideas for expansion could be applied to Rufus's welcoming ceremony.

From a gameplay perspective, yes, of course. The only problem there is that the point of no return is a bit earlier compared to Midgar.
Junon: when Jumping up the mast with Mr. Dolphin.
Midgar: before being captured.

Hell, Junon arguably serves as more effective an end to the Shin-Ra-as-main-villain arc than leaving Midgar because a) Sephiroth actually makes his first appearance as an enemy of the player on the cargo ship; b) the player actually fights a main boss unrelated to Shin-Ra here; and c) it's not until after this that the party actually stops running into Shin-Ra for a good long while.

Unfortunately, I'll have to disagree with all points made here.
a) Sephiroth is nigh irrelevant to the Shinra arc from the characters' perspective. After leaving Midgar, Sephiroth is the main target, not Shinra. That's a completely new story arc. From a plot standpoint, the true Shinra arc isn't over until the end credits when Midgar is done for, because it's only then when Shinra stops sucking the life out of the planet. But from a storytelling perspective, the Shinra Arc ends when leaving Midgar, replaced by another arc: "Reunion" (Sephiroth and the Black Materia). Stopping Shinra is then relegated into the background until it resurfaces during the Meteor arc (execution in Junon, Huge Materia, and Sister Ray in Midgar)
b) And that's why the first Jenova boss is tied to the Reunion arc and doesn't have much to do with Shinra from a storytelling perspective. Furthermore, Meeting Jenova-Sephiroth and fighting Jenova for the first time is only a catalyst for the currently running arc and not some sort of resolution.
c) That's irrelevant. Cloud and friends run into Shinra in the Mythril Mines, in Junon, in Rocket Town, during the second Gold Saucer visit and briefly in the Temple of the Ancients. Keyword: run into. Those confrontations don't have much to do with the main task at hand (chasing Sephiroth) but rather coincidence, since Shinra happens to have the same goal as Cloud and company. We don't seek out Shinra and they don't seek us out. We use Shinra as a means to cross the continent and Shinra uses us as a means to get to Sephiroth first (by stealing the Keystone to the Temple of the Ancients). And how far apart those confrontations are has no relevance to the story arcs.

My main Problem with that splitting point is that we're not really working towards the Jenova Birth battle during the whole game. Our goal at that point in time is to chase down Sephiroth. Yes, we kind of manage that, but after the battle against Jenova, he disappears again. That's not a satisfying conclusion at all. At the end of Midgar, the CEO of Shinra, the main threat and enemy, sucking the life out of the planet, is killed. Main goal (sort of) achieved. And since his son is taking Shinra into another direction and Sephiroth resurfaces, Shinra become the second fiddle while Sephiroth stands front and center. Cue the new arc. Nothing like that happens on the cargo ship.


Apologies for the wall of text and gradually hijacking this thread :/
Maybe we should move this conversation to a new thread?

 

[Kain424]

It may be reasonable

There certainly ought to be changes in that regard. Midgar being a closed city with one entrance to the slums that some guy locked up before going on an excavation tour doesn't really hold up with the worldbuilding in any way.

I'm thinking it'll be more like a highway with a big security checkpoint you can't get past until later.

I always liked the idea of Heidegger and Scarlet attacking the group with a mech or even piloting Motorball. The battle against Proud Clod during the raid on Midgar would then be their revenge fight.

That would be cool, for sure.

 

[SailorStarDust]

Oh! I'm still written down for December 7th this year, right?

Hmm, I am interested in how likely my scenario could be given the 60-100+ hour per episode assumptions, but honestly I don't think it'll happen simply based on marketing. The ship en route to Costa del Sol or the Disc 1 format of Aerith's death as the Part 1 ending can leave plenty of places to explore with just how vast the Planet'll be this time around.

 

[Ite]

There’s a boss, a short dungeon, some scenes, a short dungeon, a second boss, a mini game, and a third boss between acquiring Red XIII and leaving Midgar. That’s more than that alien guy in FF4 gets.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think you misunderstood. In regards to backtracking, I'm not talking about the end of the escape but about anytime before the point of no return in the Shinra Building before the group gets captured.

...

The only problem there is that the point of no return is a bit earlier compared to Midgar.
Junon: when Jumping up the mast with Mr. Dolphin.
Midgar: before being captured.

That doesn't make sense to me. Jumping up there with Mr. Dolphin is more comparable to the climb up to the Shin-Ra building. Both were a point of no return in the original game, either of which could be circumvented easily in the remake for exploration purposes.

There is an elevator, after all, between Junon and Under Junon, just as there's an elevator between the upper levels of the Shin-Ra building and the lobby. The only thing that has to be a point of no return for a Jenova-Birth ending to part 1 is the cargo ship.

Regarding backtracking into Midgar from outside, that's not only a problem from a storytelling perspective but also accessibility. If it was that easy to enter the Midgar slums by foot from outside, this would be a huge security and image issue for Shinra, who better shield the outside from the filth in the slums and make sure nobody can just waltz in undetected. Hence the big fence all around the slums.

It's not like the people in the slums were prisoners or unable to leave. =|

There was no big secret about the slums being what they were. People just didn't care.

Shit, there was some company from outside Midgar visiting on a business trip and holding ... a team-building exercise? Or whatever that was ... in the Queen's Room at the Honey Bee Inn.

And for that matter, that fence running around the slums is translucent. Not the best design for keeping the slums out of sight when you can look right at the piles of scrap without ever stepping foot in the city.

If part 1 ended with Jenova Life, I think Yuffie should be moved to part 2. Too little time for her development, even if she joins around the Chocobo Farm. There's only Fort Condor (minor location) and Junon (major location) for her to develop (story and gameplay) and that's too late in my opinion.

That's still more than Red XIII would get in your forecasted model, and you're also not including the full potential list of locations for Yuffie (Kalm, the farm, the marshes, the mines, Fort Condor, and Junon).

Apologies for the wall of text and gradually hijacking this thread :/
Maybe we should move this conversation to a new thread?

We can, if you want, though I don't think there's much more to be said. We've established that either proposition has its weaknesses that will require finessing.

There’s a boss, a short dungeon, some scenes, a short dungeon, a second boss, a mini game, and a third boss between acquiring Red XIII and leaving Midgar. That’s more than that alien guy in FF4 gets.

Your measure for sufficient screen time is Fusoya? Literally the most expendable playable character FF has ever had? Like, more so than Gogo or Umaro? =P

I also think you're being extremely generous in your use of even "short dungeon" here.

 

[Defeatable]

One possibility re: Red XII is that he's only a guest member in Part I, and only becomes a fully playable character at Cosmo Canyon during Part II before the Cave of the Gi Tribe. I've also had this wild idea that if they wanted to introduce Yuffie, they could introduce her during the raid on Shinra HQ, where she'd broken in to try to steal a Materia hoard, and in exchange for you breaking her out of prison, she joins your party. Unfortunately there's no way to introduce Vincent before Nibelheim without changing his backstory intensively.

As for the end of Part I, I think Junon before the Cargo Ship would be a good point, so long as there's a way to add in a final-dungeon level area by there. Maybe a new, secret underground laboratory below Junon (or even part of the underwater reactor we visit later), and instead of fighting JENOVA:Birth on the ship, you fight it underground or underwater in a huge climactic-looking specimen chamber. Then the cargo ship ride happens at the beginning of Part II as a re-introductory dungeon and a re-introduction to the characters. Because no matter how I slice it, that area and the boss fight don't have the grandiosity I would like for the final area of Part I.

 

[Ite]

Your measure for sufficient screen time is Fusoya?

I alao think you're being extremely generous in your use of even "short dungeon" here.

Yeah it’s probably not a good sign when I can’t even remember his name XD.

I dunno, if you run around and pick up the items, you get into 5-10 random encounters. I would love for that section to be expanded, b/c you’re right it is far too short. More’s the pity! It’s probably the happiest time in the whole game. Your plan succeeded in every way, all you have to do is bust your way out of there!

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

There is an elevator, after all, between Junon and Under Junon

Yes, but Cloud can only use it when alone. After the Dolphin jump, the others don't rejoin the party until the Jenova incident on the cargo ship. That's why I chose that as the point of no return. In the Shinra building, we can ride the elevator as a group.

Shit, there was some company from outside Midgar visiting on a business trip and holding ... a team-building exercise? Or whatever that was ... in the Queen's Room at the Honey Bee Inn.

Crap, completely forgot about that :/

And for that matter, that fence running around the slums is translucent. Not the best design for keeping the slums out of sight when you can look right at the piles of scrap without ever stepping foot in the city.

True, though one can only see the outskirts where barely anything but heap of scraps are visible and not waltz in and see the actual situation inside. And since there are no roads on ground level (that we know of), I don't think many people will trek there.

Not sure how the slum denizens would be able to leave willy nilly. I don't think they all have keys to the doors in the fence. Maybe travel to the upper plate and then leave using the highways?

That's still more than Red XIII would get in your forecasted model, and you're also not including the full potential list of locations for Yuffie (Kalm, the farm, the marshes, the mines, Fort Condor, and Junon).

I omitted Kalm because there's no room for her. Kalm is already occupied by the Flashback. Cramming her into there would make Kalm bloated in my opinion. And I excluded the farm, the marsh and mines because they lack relevant and significant story points (they might add some in the Remake, but I kinda doubt that) as opposed to Fort Condor (similar situation to Wutai, potential character development for Yuffie), and naturally Junon.

That's another reason why ending part 1 at Midgar works better for Yuffie. She can join the group before Fort Condor, where her character arc starts and then ends in Wutai (at least her main arc), all within the same game. Otherwise, she ends up being underdeveloped in part 1.

We can, if you want, though I don't think there's much more to be said. We've established that either proposition has its weaknesses that will require finessing.

That's true and I was thinking the same thing. Neither variant seems to have a clear advantage when trying to put subjectivity and personal preferences aside. Though I was more thinking about ripping this whole conversation out of this thread and shove those posts into a new thread to clean up this one.

One possibility re: Red XII is that he's only a guest member in Part I, and only becomes a fully playable character at Cosmo Canyon during Part II before the Cave of the Gi Tribe. I've also had this wild idea that if they wanted to introduce Yuffie, they could introduce her during the raid on Shinra HQ, where she'd broken in to try to steal a Materia hoard, and in exchange for you breaking her out of prison, she joins your party.

If Red XIII remains a guest until the escape from Midgar, he should become a permanent party member when they're standing at the end of the unfinished highway where everyone shares their resolve and why they want to keep traveling in this group. Meaning, he starts being a party member on the way to Kalm or in Kalm, depending on how they'll handle the transition between games (assuming there's a split after Midgar).

Regarding Yuffie, I'm not sure if I like the idea of 2 completely unrelated characters joining almost simultaneously. I think Yuffie is better met outside, since she's a traveling Materia thief and sneaking into a metropolis seems too risky.

Because no matter how I slice it, that area and the boss fight don't have the grandiosity I would like for the final area of Part I.

That's one of my problems with this splitting point. They'd have to significantly change so many things for that splitting point to feel like the end of an arc and a game with proper end-game content and not seem like a hard split with an annoying "To be continued..." at the end.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, but Cloud can only use it when alone. After the Dolphin jump, the others don't rejoin the party until the Jenova incident on the cargo ship. That's why I chose that as the point of no return. In the Shinra building, we can ride the elevator as a group.

Given the size of the changes we're already pondering, this wouldn't be a problem at all. Some obligatory dialogue outside the elevator to the effect of "When we come back, we'll split up again to make it easier to avoid detection" would be plenty sufficient.

Meanwhile, making the point of no return for the Shin-Ra building that moment of getting caught in the elevator means coming up with another avenue back to ground level from the 66th floor that does allow Avalanche to avoid detection ... despite the game still requiring they come back to use the elevator at some point so the plot may continue. Presumably with even more super wanky handwavey dialogue than what I suggested for Junon's elevator.

I suppose they could make the point of no return either the breakout from the cells or the moment between discovering President Shinra's body and stepping outside to meet Rufus, but there again, we'd be left with narrative discordance we'd have to overlook for the sake of gameplay, as well as some overtly video game-y comment like "Let's make sure we're prepared before we go up there/out there."

Not sure how the slum denizens would be able to leave willy nilly. I don't think they all have keys to the doors in the fence. Maybe travel to the upper plate and then leave using the highways?

Isn't that what Johnny does? There's nothing but poverty/uncertainty about their future livelihood keeping anyone from moving (as in real life).

I omitted Kalm because there's no room for her. Kalm is already occupied by the Flashback. Cramming her into there would make Kalm bloated in my opinion. And I excluded the farm, the marsh and mines because they lack relevant and significant story points (they might add some in the Remake, but I kinda doubt that) as opposed to Fort Condor (similar situation to Wutai, potential character development for Yuffie), and naturally Junon.

It's safe to say we're getting expanded dialogue for all of these sections, no matter who is in the party. It might not be "relevant" (i.e. to the overarching plot), but then ... no plot points involving Yuffie are. All dialogue that includes her is geared toward character exploration (primarily of her) and/or flavoring for the world setting.

In the original game, even if you avoid recruiting her in the party until right before witnessing Aerith's death, she's still going to cry and hug Cloud in grief over this young woman she's never met. XD

As for the appropriateness of Yuffie joining before the Kalm flashback, I agree she probably shouldn't, but any point afterward would be altogether fine.

For that matter, at one point in the development of the original game, she was available at any point after Kalm. It wouldn't be surprising if that became the case again now.

That's another reason why ending part 1 at Midgar works better for Yuffie. She can join the group before Fort Condor, where her character arc starts and then ends in Wutai (at least her main arc), all within the same game. Otherwise, she ends up being underdeveloped in part 1.

What about Red "We Just Met In The Lab Half An Hour Ago" XIII?

That's true and I was thinking the same thing. Neither variant seems to have a clear advantage when trying to put subjectivity and personal preferences aside. Though I was more thinking about ripping this whole conversation out of this thread and shove those posts into a new thread to clean up this one.

And so it was.

 

[Ite]

If we’re thinking of Cloud losing his party as the point of no return, then the moment is when you accept the free bed for saving Priscilla’s life — I just replayed this part in my latest play trying to do all the Fort Condor missions.

Until you head to the cargo ship for the send-off minigame, you can run all the way back to Midgar with Cloud solo. That provided me with at least an hour of fun! Obviously, it’s not a tragedy if they change what happens there, but the world is traversable and there are even quests designed for that part of the game (as well as the really stupid Fort Condor mission that is only available between getting into the water with Mr. Dolphin and blowing the whistle for the first time... wtf Squaresoft.)

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

Given the size of the changes we're already pondering, this wouldn't be a problem at all. Some obligatory dialogue outside the elevator to the effect of "When we come back, we'll split up again to make it easier to avoid detection" would be plenty sufficient.

Well, the other's aren't just waiting for Cloud in front of the elevator in upper Junon in case he wants to go back down with them together again. In how the original is structured, Cloud has no way of converging with the others until boarding the Ship. Sure, this could change, but then why does Cloud have to go through the dolphin jumping and parading all alone while the others just take the elevator and get disguises in other ways?
That's something that still bothers me in how the original handles it. So from that perspective, I'd be glad if they change things up there, potentially moving the point of no return farther ahead.

Meanwhile, making the point of no return for the Shin-Ra building that moment of getting caught in the elevator means coming up with another avenue back to ground level from the 66th floor that does allow Avalanche to avoid detection ... despite the game still requiring they come back to use the elevator at some point so the plot may continue. Presumably with even more super wanky handwavey dialogue than what I suggested for Junon's elevator.

Eh, not quite. This could trigger only when entering the elevator from the highest available floor, so backtracking from one floor beneath should work fine, if the highest floor is then also blocked when riding the elevator back up again. Problem solved without any handwavyness

But to be honest, discussing such minute details for a Remake that will take a lot of liberties in such details anyway is rendered moot from the start, so what are we even doing here? xD *is slowly but surely getting self-aware*

Isn't that what Johnny does? There's nothing but poverty/uncertainty about their future livelihood keeping anyone from moving (as in real life).

I completely forgot about Johnny, but yes, that's exactly what I was implying. Which makes Highways running to and from the upper plate the only feasible entry and exit points. But thinking this through, the group could just get themselves some wheels and get back into Midgar to retrieve missed items and Materia. We're running in circles

Regarding your points about Yuffie: complete agreement. I hope they handle her variable recruitment location better in regards to the story. And I kinda hope for the original concept to return, where you see several Wanted signs all around the place after leaving Midgar.

What about Red "We Just Met In The Lab Half An Hour Ago" XIII?

Guest character (either AI controlled with no slot in the party UI or not partaking in gameplay whatsoever. I prefer the former option)

 

[hleV]

Is OG broken down into "arcs/parts" somewhere so I could read it for reference? Would probably help in this discussion as it'd be easier to remember everything that happens in OG.

 

[Roger]

Is OG broken down into "arcs/parts" somewhere so I could read it for reference? Would probably help in this discussion as it'd be easier to remember everything that happens in OG.

Not in any official capacity. Fans break it doen however they wish.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Is OG broken down into "arcs/parts" somewhere so I could read it for reference? Would probably help in this discussion as it'd be easier to remember everything that happens in OG.

Not in any official capacity. Fans break it doen however they wish.

Well, there is "Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII," which more or less follows the structure @JBedford and @Vyzzuvazzadth have been talking about -- break after Midgar, break after Meteor's casting, and then carry on up to the end.

Of course, it also follows a rather stilted presentation in terms of the percentage of content shown. In the second portion, it completely skips over everything between the Kalm flashback and the Temple of the Ancients. In fact, the video skips everything not related to the battle with Shin-Ra; Aerith's heritage; the battle with Sephiroth; and Cloud's identity.

Consequently, we see such imbalances of presentation as Vincent getting more attention than Red XIII and coverage for the third segment being close to three times the length of the first two.

But the video does offer a great overview of the main plot threads.

 

[Ite]

I know "Reminiscence" is designed to catch people up on the relevant AC plot points, but it does cover all the main beats.

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

Is OG broken down into "arcs/parts" somewhere so I could read it for reference? Would probably help in this discussion as it'd be easier to remember everything that happens in OG.

In addition to Tres' explanation, if you're up for a deep dive into the structure of FFVII in regards to splitting it up properly (including a general 3-act structure overview), I suggest checking out this video I made a while ago if you haven't seen it already.

And so it was.

1 post too late, but thanks for cleaning up my off-topic mess!