Harry Potter Romance discussion thread (Split from LTD)

[Elisa Maza]

You are taking it with the dictionary meaning. I meant how we say it in everyday speech. And yes, there are a lot of words that have one connotation inside of them that is not included *by dictionary*. Language is changing all the time.

I just let my native language take the best of me. Like I said before, apologies, language barrier. No need to be like that.

 

[Eerie]

Besides, how many stories have heroines that suck?

Because most writers don't know what to do with females. But, there are prime examples of stories were women are really awesome. See, oh well, *points at sig and avatar* ASOIAF that has women playing on par with men.

It's not the only example, and I think in Fantasy genre it's easier to have better women because where they lack in strength, they make up with magic, etc. However, its not the only genre were women can be awesome. See also science fiction.

Also, french definition for "hero" (amongst half-gods and other things):
Principal personnage d'une œuvre d'imagination, et par affaiblissement, personnage quelconque d'une œuvre de fiction. Ulysse est le héros de l'« Odyssée ». Les héros des chansons de geste, du théâtre classique. Rastignac, le père Goriot, Eugénie Grandet sont des héros de Balzac. Le héros du film. Le type du héros romantique. Un héros de comédie. Fig. Un héros de roman, un personnage dont l'allure et les exploits parlent fortement à l'imagination

(thanks to the French Academy)
Basically, the main character of a story.

 

[Zee]

You are taking it with the dictionary meaning. I meant how we say it in everyday speech.

Well you said Greek, which is why I provided the wiki links. Unless you weren't talking about Ancient Greek, in which case that was just a misunderstanding.

I realize the words are often used interchangeably, and most of the time this doesn't matter because the protagonist is also the hero, but if you're going to claim the two people who practically carry Harry's ass around for him aren't also heroic characters, then... yeah I have to say something. It's like saying FFVII had no heroine just because Cloud's the main character.

Basically, the main character of a story.

good god my english teacher is weeping somewhere

do people not realize villain protagonists exist? that does not make them heroes ffs

 

[Elisa Maza]

Your English teacher talks about the English language and he/she has no right to weep, because Eerie and I are talking about Greek and French. In these languages the connotations exist and very strongly (I can safely say this about the Greek language). Yes, I made a mistake by wording this in English like this (which honestly baffles me: I'd swear that English do have the hero/heroine = protagonist link), and I recognized it. Clear now?

but if you're going to claim the two people who practically carry Harry's ass around for him aren't also heroic characters, then... yeah I have to say something. It's like saying FFVII had no heroine just because Cloud's the main character.

[...]

do people not realize villain protagonists exist? that does not make them heroes ffs

I wish to believe that after the explanations Eerie and I gave to you, you have understood my meaning in the previous posts and that the misunderstanding is over.

Oh, BTW... I AM Greek, so yes, I was talking about modern Greek, since I speak it everyday. And the link hero/heroine = protagonist comes from the epics of the past where the hero (heroic person) was ALWAYS the protagonist. So, yeah.

Interesting linguistic debate. XD

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

It's not the only example, and I think in Fantasy genre it's easier to have better women because where they lack in strength, they make up with magic, etc. However, its not the only genre were women can be awesome. See also science fiction.

but there are some books that really fail at having strong women. In fact, they get threatened with rape everytime the author feels like it sounds like a cool idea. *staring right at you Sword of Truth*

Also I think Horror has a propensity towards strong women, especially if they are protagonists, like Heather, Alessa, Maria, (all from Silent Hill) or Ripley (Aliens series).

 

[Eerie]

good god my english teacher is weeping somewhere

"et par affaiblissement, personnage quelconque d'une œuvre de fiction."

Meaning, yes, it CAN mean any character from a story, but, it's not the main meaning. And in French the idea that a villain is a hero is non-existent, EXCEPT if he's the main character of the story.

If the French Academy says blue, it's blue. And that's all there is in French. I hate it when they go stupid - because they do - but they are the ones who set the official French language.

Edit: I didn't read Sword of Truth. I think there can be awesome women in any genre. My favourite French classic is Zola's The Ladies' Paradise and the main character is an awesome girl. And she doesn't fight, and all, but yes. She IS awesome. [BTW that might be the only Zola that doesn't put you into depression so I definitely rec it; it's beautiful and sad at the same time, and I always felt like I was walking in Paris at the end of the XIXth century while reading it =)].

 

[Zee]

Your English teacher talks about the English language and he/she has no right to weep, because Eerie and I are talking about Greek and French. In these language the connotations exist and very strongly.

English is an incredibly fucked language and we use words interchangeably and downright incorrectly all the time; doesn't make it right. Especially in making a statement as you did about there being no heroine. That just baffled me because I've never heard anyone say that about a forefront female character, especially one that is clearly, well, heroic.

I wish to believe that after the explanations Eerie and I gave to you, you have understood my meaning in the previous posts and that the misunderstanding is over.

I get what you were trying to say, yeah.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

What we call a "hero" in real life vs. what we call a hero in drama/fiction are two different things. In fiction, a character need not be heroic to be labeled as such. Zack is not FFVII's hero despite being the most heroic of them all.

 

[Ⓐaron]

but there are some books that really fail at having strong women. In fact, they get threatened with rape everytime the author feels like it sounds like a cool idea. *staring right at you Sword of Truth*

Sword of Truth is so fucking awful. Sorry, I just had to throw that out there. It's also one of the rare series that appears to get progressively worse with every book. Not that I was actually able to read the whole fucking thing. In fact I barely made it through 50 pages of any book past the first.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Sword of Truth is so fucking awful. Sorry, I just had to throw that out there. It's also one of the rare series that appears to get progressively worse with every book. Not that I was actually able to read the whole fucking thing. In fact I barely made it through 50 pages of any book past the first.

I was introduced to Sword of Truth by my first boyfriend, no lie. He was basically like 'this is the GREATEST SERIES EVER' and bought the first book for me.

Then again, he also enjoyed Ctrl+Alt+Del.

 

[Zee]

In fiction, a character need not be heroic to be labeled as such.

does that mean alex from a clockwork orange is a hero now

because wow

So wait, even though there are specific literary terms to explain the character's role in a story (protagonist, focus character, hero, narrator, etc) we don't need these labels because?

This entire post confuses me.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I was introduced to Sword of Truth by my first boyfriend, no lie. He was basically like 'this is the GREATEST SERIES EVER' and bought the first book for me.

That right there should have been proof the relationship wouldn't work out. In retrospect that probably explains why my last relationship didn't work out as well. My ex didn't think it was GREATEST SERIES EVER or anything, but she liked it.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Ugh. I get the feeling that you cannot for some unfathomable reason understand that the literary terms you're throwing tend to overlap when it comes to characters and the protagonist is almost always hero in modern terms.

Word meaning changes as society does. If you want to be a purist, then by its original meaning hero labels would only apply to characters like Hercules, demigods of ancient Greece.

A hero is a combination of the above titles you listed, not one. That's why a hero is always the protagonist, central character who drives the action and most often also one of the guys we root for. You cannot limit the definition of hero only to heroic action.

You can be the protagonist and not a hero (example: antihero), but you can't be a hero and not a protagonist.

 

[Zee]

Ugh. I get the feeling that you cannot for some unfathomable reason understand that the literary terms you're throwing tend to overlap when it comes to characters and the protagonist is almost always hero in modern terms.

I realize the words are often used interchangeably, and most of the time this doesn't matter because the protagonist is also the hero, but if you're going to claim the two people who practically carry Harry's ass around for him aren't also heroic characters, then...

I get the feeling you didn't quite read everything that went on before you started posting.

The point of this original discussion was that Harry Potter does have a heroine; Hermione. End of.

You cannot limit the definition of hero only to heroic action.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

You can be the protagonist and not a hero (example: antihero), but you can't be a hero and not a protagonist.

Dr. Horrible is a villain protagonist and his rival is Captain Hammer, a heroic antagonist. Artemis Fowl's rival Holly is heroic, but she is not a protagonist.

There just seem to be so many things wrong with this sentence I'm not quite sure if I should start listing anti-examples or what.

 

[looneymoon]

Can we go back to discussing sex lives of underage fictional characters? ;o;

Harry = metrosexual
Ron = bi-curious
Hermione = waiting until marriage

HOW WOULD THE SCARF OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION SORT YOU

 

[Dana Scully]

What's the fourth category of sexual orientation?

There has to be 4, or else the other 3 would have no one to shamelessly discriminate against.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Fourth category would have to be Anything That Moves.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Dr. Horrible is a villain protagonist and his rival is Captain Hammer, a heroic antagonist. Artemis Fowl's rival Holly is heroic, but she is not a protagonist.

...wow, basic reading comprehension fails you. Might want to fix that.

No shit, I said you CAN be a protagonist without being the hero. You can drive the action without being THE HERO. I think you failed to read the part where I said hero =/= someone who just does heroic deeds.

Aaaanyway. this is off topic enough as it is.

Can we go back to discussing sex lives of underage fictional characters?

...they not underage in the epilogue In fact, in the movie, Draco will look 60

 

[Dana Scully]

Sweet holy jesus whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

...wow, basic reading comprehension fails you. Might want to fix that.

okay did you ever actually define what you feel a hero was or did you just herp and derp in the thread? cause that's pretty much all I'm seeing bro.

No shit, I said you CAN be a protagonist without being the hero. You can drive the action without being THE HERO. I think you failed to read the part where I said hero =/= someone who just does heroic deeds.

then what the shit is your definition of hero, again.

 

[Ⓐaron]

...wow, basic reading comprehension fails you. Might want to fix that.

No shit, I said you CAN be a protagonist without being the hero. You can drive the action without being THE HERO. I think you failed to read the part where I said hero =/= someone who just does heroic deeds.

Aaaanyway. this is off topic enough as it is.

I'm hugely sleep deprived so I may just be misreading things but to me it looks like you also, whether intentionally or not, implied a heroic character has to be a protagonist:

...you can't be a hero and not a protagonist.

Though I'm guessing that was probably just misworded. Anyway, Aki responded with examples of heroic characters who are not considered protagonists:

Dr. Horrible is a villain protagonist and his rival is Captain Hammer, a heroic antagonist. Artemis Fowl's rival Holly is heroic, but she is not a protagonist.

 

[looneymoon]

What's the fourth category of sexual orientation?

There has to be 4, or else the other 3 would have no one to shamelessly discriminate against.

Spoiler: PUT IT ON AND SEE

 

[Celes Chere]

 

[Dana Scully]

Spoiler: PUT IT ON AND SEE

Spoiler: AND IT'S GOING TO BE TOOOOOOTALLY AWESOME

Damn I need to watch this again.

Also, @thread: anyone else here ship Remus/Tonks before book 6.