Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (gameplay/combat)

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I actually really hope that the fight between Tifa and Scarlett is a full-blown boss fight, not just a slapping mini-game. Like, maybe we can see them slap each other in the cutscene right before the fight, but then have a battle transition and let them duke it out all proper like. With the twist of Tifa having no materia because she just escaped from the gas chamber. :monster:

Maybe, since they are at the end of the cannon, it could be one of those "get pushed to the edge and you die" kind of fights.
 
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hian

Purist
Despite how minor of a scene it is, I'm also kinda interested in how they'll solve it.
One one hand, having it be a serious fight would be kinda strange, as I never imagine Scarlett to be much of a fighter, especially not in that dress and high heels, but on the other hand, having Tifa and Scarlett slap each-other silly in those graphics after having run around kicking ass in real-time action with Tifa for what will probably be one or two installments of the remake before you get to that point, will grate as hell too.

Maybe they'll just reduce it to a cut-scene with Tifa hitting her once in the face instead, or running away while Scarlett shoots after her with a gun or something.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
It could be that. Because I never had trouble understanding why Tifa slaps her instead of beating the crap out of her. She wanted to respond in kind. And I imagine a slap from Tifa hurts a lot more than one from Scarlet :monster:

And we have the smiley of Lightning smacking Fang, I'm surprised we haven't come up with a Tifa-slapping gif
 

Mayo Master

Pro Adventurer
I was thinking of having this scene revised, with Tifa sending Scarlet to the floor with a broken jaw after a single hit. Or it could be transformed into some sort of silly curb-stomp battle. And they you'd see Scarlet's swollen and bruised face in the next cutscene involving her.
 

Unit-01

Might be around.
AKA
Sic, Anthony
^That would destroy Scarlet's appearance later on with the Prod Buster in the Raid on Midgar.

However I feel like the Cross-Dressing scene they'll keep in it there. Also if the Junon Cannon will be anything like the one we see in CC, then it's a lot wider so Scarlet shouldn't have a problem walking around it with High-Heels.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Actually difficult to know what to do with this one.

Can't have Scarlet fail too badly, or she's diminished as a threat.

A bossfight has it's own problems -what if you used all your healing items in the North Cave, and don't have good materia on Tifa? Seems unlikely that she'd be let go shopping prior to her execution.

Best option is probably a Squall v Galbadian Soldier style mini-game.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
It should just change into Tekken. Michelle vs Nina. Namco won't mind. :monster:
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
'slapping minigame' :awesome:

Though I wouldn't mind seeing Scarlet slap Tifa and then Tifa does it in kind, except Tifa's knocks Scarlet to the ground. It'd be like "Bitch, you don't know who you're slapping" :monster:
 

Random Nobody

local roach
Actually difficult to know what to do with this one.

Can't have Scarlet fail too badly, or she's diminished as a threat.

A bossfight has it's own problems -what if you used all your healing items in the North Cave, and don't have good materia on Tifa?
Well, it couldn't possibly be more pathetic than the Palmer boss fight.

I'd actually be willing to suspend my disbelief if Square decided to go the other direction with Scarlet and made her more menacing by turning her into a laughing sociopath in a cocktail with combat skills, because that honestly would be funny as hell. That, and homegirl just finished inhaling a bunch of CO, or maybe prussic acid, or whatever they just tried to murder her with, so while it would still be a stretch, if they showed Tifa visibly weakened (ergo, paleness, dizziness, blue lips, fatigue, vomiting) or even pulled some interface screw a la the Mantis fight from MGS or controlled helplessness like Phantom Pain's skressful-ass intro, I'd go with it.

But I doubt any of that will happen tho. Especially since showing persistent side-effects of nearly being gassed to death is probably too #dark if they're going for a T/16+ rating.
 
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hian

Purist
laughing sociopath in a cocktail

She already was though, just minus the fighting skills.
Here's Scarlett shooting one of her own soldiers at close range for not being able to hit Barett and Dyne properly, and then laughing about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvDZHxdJnL8

So clearly Scarlett does use guns at times and doesn't mind getting her hands dirty either. So it could be pretty easy to facilitate a fight with her if she's wielding a weapon.
 

Random Nobody

local roach
Oh, she's most definitely a violent sociopath already, I just mean a violent sociopath...with hands. As it stands now, her insults are weak and her hands are weaker. I mean, she doesn't seem like the kind of person you want with you in a fistfight. Seems like the kind of friend who spends all ha time instigating and talking shit, and then freezes up after throwing one missed haymaker and gets slapped in the chaos.

I'm just saiyan that I would not be at all angry if they turned her into Fem. Bison and her red-ass, 90's #strongwoman suit also had mounted shoulder pad cannons that launched silicone chicken cutlets at the protagonist. Like, I would not be mad at all.
 

Unit-01

Might be around.
AKA
Sic, Anthony
I'm just saiyan that I would not be at all angry if they turned her into Fem. Bison and her red-ass, 90's #strongwoman suit also had mounted shoulder pad cannons that launched silicone chicken cutlets at the protagonist. Like, I would not be mad at all.

I laughed for a good 30 seconds at this.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Being as Wait Mode was just announced for FFXV on an E3 livestream (54 mins - 57:35), I think that we can expect it for the FFVII Remake, and it'll likely make some folk who're of the more fond of the Oldschool RPG tactical gameplay feel quite happy.

hlb80jy4e7x7ygtd4gz0.GIF


EDIT: Here's just the Wait Mode video (without the presentation/information that you can see in the above link).






X :neo:
 

Cjiadon

Blueberry
Wait mode looks nice. I like the feel I get watching it. I really like turned based battle systems and I think this helps give that kind of feeling to the fight in the video. I am not as good at purely active systems until the end of the game. It usually takes me the whole game to get used to it so I appreciated a moment to think about how I want to tackle something.
 

Mayo Master

Pro Adventurer
I always thought that if you wanted to satisfy Action-RPG and turn-based RPG fans, the mechanics of Dragon Age Inquisition were pretty much ideal. With the inclusion of a Wait mode, FF XV very much comes to it.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
I can imagine you can easily play the whole game in active mode on the easier difficulties, but the higher difficulty levels (or challenges, like er, post-final-boss bosses or what have you) will require some more strategy and shit.
 

hian

Purist
I like the concept, but the execution looks pretty stiff and wonky.

I'm glad Tabata has learned something though - this mode was sorely need in FF Type-0 (along with a proper menu system that actually served a function...), so perhaps he's learned along the way that party-based RPG action combat actually demands some sort of means to micro-manage elements mid-battle in peace and quiet in order for it to not be a train-wreck?

This, if Nomura and co are exchanges notes with Tabata and co, bodes well for the FFVII remake.
 
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Lex

Administrator
I have a shitload of respect for Tabata for the way he's dealt with staff who are too complacent about the FF brand. I suppose we won't know how effective he's been as a mainline director until we can all play XV, but I too would love to see a Nomura/ Tabata exchange or partnership. Nomura's gameplay with the humility of Tabata? I can't think of anything better XD
 

hian

Purist
I'm of two minds in regards to Tabata and his view of FF and staff, and so I just need to get this off my chest -

On one hand, like you Lex, I think he's got humility and he seems to be a developer that puts a lot of thought into his work, and I'm sure he is, at least in parts, right about how many at SE have lost track of how to work the magic into the franchise.

So while I'm on-board with his approach to game-design, what I'm divided on his is perception of FF as a franchise, and that goes for a lot of the people who've voiced their agreement with him too.
Yes, FF games always were "challengers", and it's important to try new things -
However, in getting too focused on that I also think that people (and Tabata) end up ignoring the huge amounts of similarities between most of the FF games (notably among them 1-9, and to some extent 10) which arguably played a very large part in establishing what was for a very long time the recognizable identity of the franchise.
And, I also think people end up ignoring the fact that another important staple of the franchise was to both re-invent, yet keep familiar many central aspects of the games, and furthermore that what many of the older fans have been complaining about over the years is not a lack of innovation, but rather blatant disregard for the roots of the franchise - the elements that were tried, tested, and true - in favor of innovation for innovations sake.

At most, the main-line numbered FF games up until the merger of Square and Enix took baby-steps in terms of changes between each title - they reworked aspects of battle-mechanics, and character progression mechanics, and slowly introduced more complexity in terms of story-telling - but apart from that, most things remained the same.

Even when people see VII and VIII as being quite different from earlier games, they tend to forget that pretty much everything game-play-wise that FFVII did was more or less just minor adjustments to the formula that FFVI already established - even the shift of setting to something more modern, instead of classical fantasy (in fact, elements of sci-fi has been present in FF since 3, if I remember correctly).
FFVII edged on a bit further - but it wasn't doing anything, except in terms of graphics and sound, that didn't fit as a part of a trend that was already established by VI.

Things like the removal of the world-map in FF10 however, and the introduction of real action-type game-play, like you saw in Type-0, were not sound design-choices at the time, IMO (and perhaps even now, but we'll see once we get to play XV)
The removal of the world-map, despite not having the technology to replace it with a world similar to that of FFXV, lead to what I consider to, at least speaking in terms of how I viscerally experienced them, the most cramped worlds in the series, and the removal of command-based combat lead to some of the most messy and contrived combat in the series (Type-0).

Tabata seems to have turned this around though, and that's where, if he has succeeded he deserves some serious credit.
That being said - it feels like a real game of catch-up.
SE could easily have made lots of great FF games in-between FF10 and now (granted FF11 and FF12 are both good games - one is an online game though, and the other in set in Ivalice and is written in a way that is completely dissonant with the writing of all the earlier games, so personally, I think both should have been side-titles, not main entries), if they'd been more mindful of the roots of the franchise and worked harder on ways to improve/mix up the core game-play elements and story-telling conventions of the previous games, rather then painting themselves into a corner by attempting to re-invent everything and doing ok/poor up until now.

And what's more - if they succeed with this game - it will only serve as a conformation that this was the way to go after all (despite all the failures along the way) simply because they finally found a working formula, despite the fact that they already had one that people were asking for all these years, laying straight in front of their noses.

The success of games like Persona, the Bravely Series, and Dragon Quest show that there is still plenty of room for more traditional JRPG experiences, and despite the fact that this game looks good in its own right, the success of it, to me, will just feel like another nail in the coffin for what was always my go to franchise for that a very specific, and unique kind of JRPG experience.

The particular JRPG experience of the older FF games doesn't exist anymore. Persona, while a classical JRPG in many ways, is extremely different in feel, design and story-telling from the classical FF games.
With the classical FF design gone, there really is no replacement. There is no other place to go for people who want to play the next generations of games similar to that of FF6-9.
It's gone. As is Breath of Fire, Suikoden, and several others.
Gone because of mismanagement, licensing issues, and forced "modernity" at the hands of share-holders who only look to the money made by games like Witcher, and Mass Effect etc.
And gone because people like Tabata thinks FF is just a name of a franchise that apparently only has one core identifying factor to it - namely whether it challenges the genre or not...

Simply put - I like action RPGs, but FF was never a franchise I went to expecting or wanting action RPGs, or huge game-play changes - and personally, having the franchise's main line turn into that, is sad, and I think Tabata's line of thinking is largely to thank for that, and what's more, I think his perspective informing that line of thinking is wrong.

He's still proven to a great developer though, and FFXV looks like a great game. After all I've seen of it now though, I find myself wishing it was still a side-game - a novelty title for people interested in FF in an action RPG format (like the people who enjoyed CC and Type-0), not the new face and future of the franchise.
 
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ForceStealer

Double Growth
Well the side title was exactly it was intended to be, while XIII was indeed more "traditional." It's different of course, but at it's core is still ATB.

This game was forced to become a mainline entry, and it seems like Tabata has done an admirable job of adjusting it as such. I personally don't subscribe to the idea that, because XV is an action RPG, the series will now be an action RPG for all subsequent titles. 11 was a successful game but it didn't mean all games after that were just like it. And, as I said, for as maligned as XIII often is, it was still absolutely a turn-based (inasmuch as ATB was even turn-based) RPG. And, while not everyone liked the battle system, I would say the battle system got the most praise of anything in the game.

I thought Type-0 was a lot more fun to play than you evidently do, but I don't think it's really bled into XV's development, at least it doesn't look like it. Though I can see the similarities between Type-0 and Crisis Core. But I don't know why you would consider it the future of the franchise when none of the last 4 entries have been similar at all or signaled the future of gameplay for the franchise.
 

hian

Purist
Well the side title was exactly it was intended to be, while XIII was indeed more "traditional." It's different of course, but at it's core is still ATB.

I had no issues with the combat of 13 (except for the lack of direct control over other party members).

My main issue with that game, was almost entirely down to how they approached exploration.

This game was forced to become a mainline entry, and it seems like Tabata has done an admirable job of adjusting it as such. I personally don't subscribe to the idea that, because XV is an action RPG, the series will now be an action RPG for all subsequent titles.

I think that largely depends on how well XV does.

But consider Type-0, CC, Lightning Returns, FFVII:R, and FFXV, I think it's pretty apparent what direction FF is going in.

11 was a successful game but it didn't mean all games after that were just like it. And, as I said, for as maligned as XIII often is, it was still absolutely a turn-based (inasmuch as ATB was even turn-based) RPG. And, while not everyone liked the battle system, I would say the battle system got the most praise of anything in the game.

11's game-play clearly informed 12 though. It was however, an online game, and another one that still didn't reach the heights of FF popularity, so not sticking with that style for 13 is pretty reasonable.

I thought Type-0 was a lot more fun to play than you evidently do

Oh I like the game - but it's still horribly designed.

I could write a thesis on everything wrong with the fundamental design of that game, everything from a menu that hardly serves any function, the game not pausing when browsing for items, no proper/useful resurrection items/spells to speak of despite punishing players for having party-members die mid mission, copy-paste towns that serve no real purpose, artificial limiters that force the player to grind, disjointed story-telling with a bloated cast whose character progression is hampered by time-constraints and on and on and on.

On the face of it, it still has some of the most solid combat mechanics I've ever seen in an action RPG - every character is a joy to control, and I love just straight up fighting in the game - it's just a shame that everything surrounding it, like the party mechanics, the menu, the lack of a proper way to target magic, items, etc. ruins the rest of the experience.

but I don't think it's really bled into XV's development, at least it doesn't look like it.

I can't see how you can't when the basic out-line of the battle systems are essentially the same - from holding the attack button to perform combos, to the dodge mechanics, and the A.I team-mates.

There are also great differences of course - but the basics are the same - a removal of a command-driven abstract combat system, in favor of a concrete action based system.

Though I can see the similarities between Type-0 and Crisis Core. But I don't know why you would consider it the future of the franchise when none of the last 4 entries have been.

Because "the last 4 entries" are not the future?
Going by FFXV and FFVII:R, and what every major player in the company says in regards to the franchise, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the numbered titles in the franchise going back to command based combat.

Also, the last four entries? Apart from 13, and 13-2 and 14, which is the last one?
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
This game was forced to become a mainline entry, and it seems like Tabata has done an admirable job of adjusting it as such. I personally don't subscribe to the idea that, because XV is an action RPG, the series will now be an action RPG for all subsequent titles.

I think that largely depends on how well XV does.

But consider Type-0, CC, Lightning Returns, FFVII:R, and FFXV, I think it's pretty apparent what direction FF is going in.

But all but one of those ARE spinoffs, exactly what you said you would be more okay with this being. If you think spinoffs inform the future of the franchise, why would you be more okay with XV being a spinoff?

but I don't think it's really bled into XV's development, at least it doesn't look like it.

I can't see how you can't when the basic out-line of the battle systems are essentially the same - from holding the attack button to perform combos, to the dodge mechanics, and the A.I team-mates.

There are also great differences of course - but the basics are the same - a removal of a command-driven abstract combat system, in favor of a concrete action based system.

But a lot of that looked to be in place before Tabata came on. I dunno about the holding the attack button, but the other stuff was all there already.

Though I can see the similarities between Type-0 and Crisis Core. But I don't know why you would consider it the future of the franchise when none of the last 4 entries have been.

Because "the last 4 entries" are not the future?
Going by FFXV and FFVII:R, and what every major player in the company says in regards to the franchise, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the numbered titles in the franchise going back to command based combat.

Also, the last four entries? Apart from 13, and 13-2 and 14, which is the last one?

I was referring to the last four main entries, but I probably should have said five.. Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XI, Final Fantasy XII, Final Fantasy XIII, and Final Fantasy XIV. None of those was really indicative of how the next entry was going to play.
 
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