Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (gameplay/combat)

[Clement Rage]

I don't think anyone here hates the battle system of FF7, it's not an either/or question. This topic originally arose when someone expected different characters to move differently, I don't seriously seriously think that materia won't exist in the remake, or that healing will be limited to specific characters, but in the original game, in general, Yuffie and Tifa were fast and powerful but couldn't take a hit, Barret was slow but had high HP, all other things being equal. You could work around it if you wanted, but different characters had different level of proficiency. People with long range weapons could hit targets that others couldn't.

If you hate a characters personality, you're screwed either way if the story foists him or her on you - but, as I said, at least in terms of game-play and FFVII, even if you're forced to use a neglected and disliked character, you can somehow make up for that with the materias that you've gathered and leveled up.
You can't do the same in any other FF game I can think of.

You could just switch the junctions in 8.

As for FFX - As a European, having always played the game with the advanced sphere-grid, and always having taken liberal advantage of the weapon customization, the "forced" roles of characters in that game felt limited to the beginning portions of the game. Also, the fact that you could swap characters so quickly, even in battle, was a saving grace for the potential issue of character dislike.
Then, I didn't really actively dislike anyone in the FFX cast.

Sure, you can work around roles if you're willing to put in the work. Not a problem.

Now, about FF9:

You're sticking to white mages in your examples, because once you try anything else it becomes a whole lot murkier. There are workarounds if you want to find them, like White Wind and Reis Wind -less effective, yes, but adequate for all but the most serious encounters. Once you start moving beyond white mages, the challenges are a lot less significant (not everyone can do as much damage as Steiner, but other characters can still do plenty of damage and it's not really going to be an obstacle to completing the game. Your blue mage is annoying, but there's no obstacle in the game where you absolutely need to have one, or are particularly penalised for it (except in storyline, for Fossil Roo.)

It's not that any other system is inherently wrong, but having fixed roles does allow certain kinds of storytelling that an open progression system does not. Fixed roles allow the developers to have plots where characters can do things other characters can't. Vivi as a black mage wouldn't work if he wasn't a black mage, which is a huge part of the plot. Summoners that couldn't summon would stop the plot from making sense. Freya can leap tall buildings in a single bound, and we can see her doing that outside combat. You can't do that if no character has fixed abilities.

I'm not sure how liking that the battle system is integrated into the story in a certain way means I have lost my purpose in life, but I think I'm going to bow out of this debate here.

 

[hian]

Just my opinion bro, you seem mad. That's the beauty of opinion nobody is right. You can disagree with me that's fine. Just putting my thoughts out there of what games I prefered over 7's gameplay. Games like Diablo, diablo 2 mass effect, mass effect 2, final fantasy 9, 10. And games like dota 2 and overwatch more recently has roles and I enjoyed those more. It's totaly valid that you think the materia system was the best RPG system ever invented. I disagree but respect your opinion. Again we will see what square decides No hard feelings, you seem a little uptight about it though.

Not angry. If having your opinion challenged makes you feel as if the person challenging it is angry with you, then perhaps it's you who're being overly protective of your opinion.

And no, the beauty of opinion is not that anyone is right - at least not in a meaningful sense. Yes, the opinion itself cannot be wrong, but unless you presuppose that people hold opinions for no reason then it's possibly the case that the person's reasons for holding the opinion is wrong.

And so again - to say that one prefers an enclosed system over an open ended system which allows you to do the same thing the enclosed system would, is not a meaningful opinion to hold.

It's a completely valid thing to choose 1 million dollars over 100 million dollars - but, by almost all metrics we could dream up, it would make no sense to have a preference there if choosing the larger number in no way poses a problem for you.

You could just switch the junctions in 8.

This is true. I forgot about 8. It does the same thing. The junction system is as versatile as the materia system.
I guess it slipped my mind, because I have so many issues with it for other reasons...

Now, about FF9:

You're sticking to white mages in your examples, because once you try anything else it becomes a whole lot murkier.

And why shouldn't I? If the principle is true, the principle is true.
Saying, "well you can swap around other characters without much problem" is not a useful reply to someone who didn't like either of the white mages of the game.

There are workarounds if you want to find them

The point is that you shouldn't have to find workarounds for not wanting to use a character in battle - especially in a game with a large cast of characters, where there actually are enough likeable characters to potentially fill a party.
You provide one example - namely using the blue mage as a replacement - now what if I you don't like Quina either?
I never used Quina for the most part. I liked him less than Caith Sith which is saying something.

I know I'm playing devil's advocate and being pedantic here - but I'm trying to drive a point of princple home.

It's not that any other system is inherently wrong, but having fixed roles does allow certain kinds of storytelling that an open progression system does not.

Fixed roles allow the developers to have plots where characters can do things other characters can't. Vivi as a black mage wouldn't work if he wasn't a black mage, which is a huge part of the plot.

Summoners that couldn't summon would stop the plot from making sense. Freya can leap tall buildings in a single bound, and we can see her doing that outside combat. You can't do that if no character has fixed abilities.

This all presupposes that the battles need to be reflective of the plot - which they already aren't in many significant ways.
There are also plenty of systems that allow more freedom than FFIX, while still retaining roles in the story (like FFVI's magicite system).
It also presupposes that you being bothered by an inconsistency between the game-play system and the plot is a good reason to prefer a system that denies a person like me, who is not bothered by that, the ability to play the game without being penalized.

Anyway, the combat in most FF games is already largely abstract.
You could easily have a open-ended class system (or a more open ended class system) in FFIX and simply have each character start in their token story-given class, and allow players to do whatever they want in the battles as an aside.

Garnet could be a summoner in the story - and initially in combat - and there would be no problem at all just because you, in combat, later turned her into a knight, or a thief if you so desired.

Consider that the opposite of the "issue" you present here already exists in all FF games - where characters are not able to do stuff in the plot that they are able to do in battles, and for the most part, nobody raises an eyebrow about that.

I'm not sure how liking that the battle system is integrated into the story in a certain way means I have lost my purpose in life, but I think I'm going to bow out of this debate here.

I didn't say it did, and if that's what you got from my paragraph on cognitive biases, I suggest you read it again.

The point here, is that mental state that makes people attached to limited roles is likely to be a byproduct of an on-going human trait that has little to add of value to our attitudes about game design - and just as human attachment to the idea that we must have someone else define our meaning isn't particularly helpful or positive, neither is the idea that we should restrict game-play freedom because some people enjoy being restricted.

So, let's imagine you could turn Garnet into a knight half-way through the game -
So what?

You say that would hamper the story - but as I've already pointed out - if you think so, you could just keep her as a white mage/summoner and you wouldn't have to spend any time thinking about it.
I wouldn't care and enjoy the story just the same even if she was a summoner on the field screen and in the plot, but a knight in combat, so I could do that with no issue what so ever.

The opinion, or preference (whichever you prefer) that you hold literally amounts to "I prefer a game-play system that restricts hian's preferred play-style over a system that allows both of us to play our preferred play-style", and that does not make any sense no matter how you twist and turn it.

 

[Tashasaurous]

The point is that you shouldn't have to find workarounds for not wanting to use a character in battle.

I would've said that maybe it could work out similiar to FFX's battles, but since the gameplay in the remake will be close to FFXV, there's no point in me saying it.

You provide one example - namely using the blue mage as a replacement - now what I you don't like Quina either?
I never used Quina for the most part. I liked him less than Caith Sith which is saying something...

While I liked FFIX for most part, yeah, I'm with you on that one. Quina wasn't my likeable character either. It's(and I'm calling Quina an it, since it's male/female gender is confusing) rather annoying. I didn't mind Cait Sith(I actually find him cute, even if he's a robot in FFVII).

The way Quina is makes Pete(the arch nemisis of Mickey Mouse) likeable and that's saying something too.

 

[t0mmyg]

Well if you're opinion is the right one ask yourself, why hasn't the materia system been used in almost every RPG since? Skill trees have been used far more and to far more success in numerous RPG's. Here's a quote from a gaming website of an editor that feels the same way I do.

"Perhaps the two most popular Final Fantasy games are the worst offenders in terms of having gameplay mechanics that aren't well integrated into the narrative.

Final Fantasy VII develops the Materia instead of characters
From a gameplay perspective, the characters of Final Fantasy VII are mostly blank slates. The only mechanics that are unique to characters is their weapon classes and unique limit breaks. The weapons are mostly cosmetic, since the combat mechanics don't differentiate them much. There are slight variations in the number and arrangement of materia slots between characters' weapons, but these are minor differences. Limit breaks are infrequently used and are of little consequence in the grand scheme of the game. Each character does have their own stats that improve with each level, but these improvements happen automatically and aren't influenced by player actions.

So instead of developing the characters, the player is really developing the materia. Leveling up the materia unlocks more powerful spells and abilities, and maximizing the materia allows it to duplicate and be equipped to multiple characters simultaneously.

The end effect is that any combination of three characters is almost functionally identical if you just equip them with the same set of materia. And since the player generally wants to use his or her best materia in any given encounter (except when deliberately grinding), it's very common to just equip any party arrangement with your preferred materia set. This effectively removes the need for having eight characters on the roster, but increases the amount of grinding and pads out the game's length.

Which characters you chose for any given situation is, thus, entirely arbitrary, and the characters themselves have virtually no personality within the actual game. Final Fantasy VII can, therefore, be viewed as two components glued together: a game about materia, and a movie (or book) about the characters. These two components have very little interaction with one another and are very disjoint.

Final Fantasy X's Sphere Grid is probably the best system in the franchise
This game has a much more elegant character development system that better integrates the characters into the game's story.

There is a single skill table, called the Sphere Grid. Every character uses this same grid, but starts the game at different places. The skill are placed along pre-determined paths, and the lines between paths are blocked by locks. Thus, each character follows a specific, pre-determined path for the majority of the game, with a few opportunities for the player to make small adjustments. Towards the end of the game, characters can start learning each other's abilities, but are still restricted to the skills that are in proximity to where they complete their own skill tree. Because of this, every character retains their own set of skills for almost the entire game, and only a few characters have opportunities to overlap skill sets (Khimari, Riku, and Auron being the most likely to "multi-class").

Yes, eventually (with enough grinding), you can fill up the Sphere Grid for every character (just like in Final Fantasy XII). However, even if you do this, there are still some abilities that are intrinsic to the character. For example, only Yuna can summon, and only Khimari can use the Enemy Skill ability.

In addition, the characters and their weapons offer variations in usefulness. For example, Wakka's ball is the only projectile weapon, so he is the only character that can reliably hit flying targets. Yuna is the summoner and white mage, and Lulu is the black mage (who can also hit flying targets, but only with magic). Auron tends to be the heavy-hitter of the group, Riku is the thief, and Tidus has a lot of support skills. Khimari is the only early-game wildcard character. He starts in a centralized location on the grid and has easiest access to other characters' skill trees (Wakka's and Lulu's being the most immediately-accessible).

Because of these features of the design, each character maintains their own unique role in combat, and this role is informed by the character's personality and history. During any given combat encounter, the player can even swap characters in and out of the active party. This can be done either to replace a weakened or KO'd character, or to use that character's unique abilities. Every character is thus useful in battle in their own way (except maybe Khimari), the player is incentivized to upgrade every character, and the presence of seven characters actually matters within the game!"

 

[hian]

Well if you're opinion is the right one ask yourself, why hasn't the materia system been used in almost every RPG since? Skill trees have been used far more and to far more success in numerous RPG's.

Non-sequitur and argumentum ad populum.

Even worse, it's a strawman - because I am making some argument to the effect that the materia system is the best system ever - I am arguing for open-ended systems period.

How many RPGs can you count that limit you to one skill tree per character?

FF3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, and 12 all feature open ended character development systems that allow the player to freely choose what roles each characters will play in battle.
Most Bioware RPGs do the same.
Most DnD based RPGs do the same.
All the Souls games, all the Elder Scrolls games, and I can keep on going...

How many of these successful RPGs with predetermined skill-trees can you mention? FF9 and FF4?

Here's a quote from a gaming website of an editor that feels the same way I do.

Followed by an argument from authority...

Three fallacies in one paragraph...?

I'm not going to respond to the opening of it since it only describes the materia system -
This however :

This effectively removes the need for having eight characters on the roster, but increases the amount of grinding and pads out the game's length.

is wrong on so many levels.

1.) Character roosters in RPG's aren't determined by need in terms of game-play - they are determined by the story.
2.) The writer of the article is already contradicting himself - if character progression is largely determined by materia, and the materia level independently from characters, then that should efficiently remove the need of additional grind for the most part.

In a static system with several characters of various degrees of necessity, you'll need to grind each character, even the ones you don't necessarily use or want to use on a regular basis.

Which characters you chose for any given situation is, thus, entirely arbitrary, and the characters themselves have virtually no personality within the actual game.

This to my mind pretty much disqualifies this person's opinion on the game entirely.

1.) Just because you're not picking your party members based on a predetermined battle role, does not mean that picking them is arbitrary.
I pick my characters based on how I like their personalities, their looks etc.
Having them be blank slates is perfect for that, because I don't have to useful, yet thoroughly annoying character in my party.

You should already know this though, since I've already said it like 5 times by now, yet you still post quotes from an article that glosses over this point without argument or reason.

2.) This person seriously believes the characters have no personalities within the actual game. Compared to what exactly?
FFVII has one of the most diverse, and well-expressed cast of that generation of games period.

Final Fantasy VII can, therefore, be viewed as two components glued together: a game about materia, and a movie (or book) about the characters. These two components have very little interaction with one another and are very disjoint.

This is true for all with stories games ever. All games are games about their game-play mechanics, and books/movies about their stories.
They're all disjointed to one degree or another.

Or did this person fail to notice how Solid Snake takes tons of bullets to the chest and head while in game-play, but acts as if a single bullet will kill him in the cut-scenes, and how similar things are true for almost all games ever made?
Or Sabin suplexing a train anyone?

Final Fantasy X's Sphere Grid is probably the best system in the franchise
This game has a much more elegant character development system that better integrates the characters into the game's story.

Hey, I love the sphere grid system too - seems like this person isn't disagree all that much with me after all ;p

As for how it "better integrates the characters into the game's story" - that's pretty nice double-think considering that all characters can learn all each-other skills, making it practically no different than the materia system - just requiring more grinding (which I thought this person was against...).

There is a single skill table, called the Sphere Grid. Every character uses this same grid, but starts the game at different places. The skill are placed along pre-determined paths, and the lines between paths are blocked by locks. Thus, each character follows a specific, pre-determined path for the majority of the game, with a few opportunities for the player to make small adjustments. Towards the end of the game, characters can start learning each other's abilities, but are still restricted to the skills that are in proximity to where they complete their own skill tree. Because of this, every character retains their own set of skills for almost the entire game, and only a few characters have opportunities to overlap skill sets (Khimari, Riku, and Auron being the most likely to "multi-class")..

Seems like someone didn't play the superior European/International version.

Yes, eventually (with enough grinding), you can fill up the Sphere Grid for every character (just like in Final Fantasy XII). However, even if you do this, there are still some abilities that are intrinsic to the character. For example, only Yuna can summon, and only Khimari can use the Enemy Skill ability.

I love how he says "for example", except that those are exactly the only two unique skills in the game that aren't overdrives (although Khimari's partially is) lol.

So not only can you do the exact same thing with the sphere grid as with the materia system - it requires more grind doing it.
Seeing as how there are fewer overdrives in FFX than there are limit breaks in FFVII, I think that actually puts unique character skills in FFVII's favor.

Why is this person criticizing FFVII while praising FFX again?

In addition, the characters and their weapons offer variations in usefulness. For example, Wakka's ball is the only projectile weapon, so he is the only character that can reliably hit flying targets.

Why is it good to only have one projectile character? Also, without the long range materia, this is true for FFVII too, with only projectile characters being able to hit long-distance enemies - and since every character in FFX can learn magic, this point is null and void.

Yuna is the summoner and white mage, and Lulu is the black mage (who can also hit flying targets, but only with magic).

And Yuna can learn black magic, and Lulu can learn white magic, as can everyone else...

Because of these features of the design, each character maintains their own unique role in combat, and this role is informed by the character's personality and history.

Unless you got the European/international version, or you got creative with the key spheres in which the "unique roles in combat informed by the character's personality and history" gets negated and thrown under the rug after about 5 hours, or so, of play.

During any given combat encounter, the player can even swap characters in and out of the active party. This can be done either to replace a weakened or KO'd character, or to use that character's unique abilities. Every character is thus useful in battle in their own way (except maybe Khimari), the player is incentivized to upgrade every character, and the presence of seven characters actually matters within the game!"

I.E spend time grinding seven characters, some or many of which you might not even like.

That being said - The moment I took Tidus partially down Auron and Wakka's path, and took Wakka down Auron's path, which I usually start doing the moment I get on the high-way, Auron usually becomes completely obsolete, together with Khimari.
Then, when I get enough summons, the entire party usually become obsolete... Ehm... Wait, I thought this guy was arguing for static character progression systems that force your characters to one defined path?

Why is he praising this game again?

Next time you want to validate your opinion using some talking head from the internet, you might want to make sure that their opinions are coherent first...

 

[t0mmyg]

Well, agree to disagree. I like skill trees. I think a marriage between Final Fantasy 10's system and 7's system with real time would be amazing! So sue me. Ps You don't need to rebuttle me at this point, you aren't going to change my mind. wink.

 

[Wolf_]

Each to their own, but I love the system because I can't stand using Aeris. But when I get to that point in the game where I don't have a choice, I just swap the materia over from the party member I've had to boot out to her and it's game on again. I did this a little with 13. I hated Snow so I never bothered with him, then it came to a point where a certain boss needed a strategy that involved a sentinel for the level I was and it stopped me in my tracks for a good few hours.

 

[hian]

Well, agree to disagree. I like skill trees..

Open ended character systems do not exclude skill-trees.

Again, you're not understanding the argument - nor the distinction between a static, and closed system, as opposed to a dynamic and open one.

The only thing I am criticizing here is systems where character progression is tied and limited to a specific character -
that is to say - not that once you choose a path for a character, that path does not offer total freedom to do whatever you want - rather that for each character in your party, you're free to chose what skill-tree that specific character is to spend his or her time on.

I think a marriage between Final Fantasy 10's system and 7's system with real time would be amazing! So sue me.

Sounds great to me. Both those systems allowed for free customization of the paths of the various characters.

Ps You don't need to rebuttle me at this point, you aren't going to change my mind. wink.

That's a sad attitude to have.

In either case, these posts are not necessarily for your benefit. As with all forum arguments I engage in, they are just as much for me, and for the spectators as the person I am debating.

Each to their own,

Wolf, I agree with your post, but I just wanted to high-light this sentence because it's a sentiment that mirrors that of T0mmyg, and really sort of annoys me in this context.

Yes, each to their own - but when somebody makes a game that has a restrictive system, that game literally does not allow for players to go each to their own. It only allows players who like one certain play-style to go one specific way while alienating everyone else.

The reason I'm being pedantic about this aspect of game-design is because, despite t0mmyg's failure to understand it - there is nothing about an open-ended character development system that is preventing him from playing the game as if it had a static skill-tree progression linked to each specific character - whilst his preferred system, does not allow for the opposite.

I didn't want to make this analogy, because I didn't want to cheapen the debate on gay rights -
But to drive the point home, seriously, saying "I prefer games to have limited character progression" is no different logically, and in principle, from saying "I prefer society to have limited marriage rights".
To which most reasonable people say "Why?"

To make a more relevant and less emotionally provocative example though -
How about "I would prefer it if the recently released FFVII remaster on PS4 didn't have the option to turn off random encounters, because I like random encounters",
or "I would prefer if Metal Gear didn't feature the tranquilizer gun, because I prefer to kill my enemies in the game".

I'm not trying to change people's minds off of skill-trees, or random encounters, or for people to prefer tranqing people to killing them in MGS -
I'm trying to make the argument that saying that you prefer the opposite option not being included because you prefer another way is nonsense when the option you prefer is included by default and in no way threatened or diminished by the additional option - which furthermore would make a lot of additional people happy.

Hetero people are not forced to marry people of the same gender just because gay marriage is legalized - people are not forced to turn off random encounters just because they have the ability to do so - people are not forced to non-lethally complete MGS just because it's possible to do so - and people are not forced to make a party of ambiguous jacks of all trades, or swap roles around just because a game allows for it.

 

[t0mmyg]

I preferred 10 North American version you silly goose. However it would not be the end of the world if they did 7 like the international one and allowed you to swap out the intended character rolls if you really wanted to. That was never my argument. It was more about making all the characters included in the game have an actual purpose. I care less about each character forcing you to play them one way, and more about including 7 needed and beneficial skill sets. Just like you wouldn't put Tifa in the story line and then never have her say a word, I feel it's just as important that she would be present in combat (Yes whether I enjoy her character or not). I think the main difference in our views is that you compartmentalize the story from the gameplay. And I put equal emphasis on the gameplay and the story for each character (Yes even the ones I'm not as fond of).

Let me ask you this. Do you think they should include an option to remove characters of your choice from the storyline at the beginning of the game?
I feel as strongly about the gameplay. All characters should contribute something. I also feel like the characters skills should reflect who they are in the story. However I never once said that I would dislike something like the international version of 10 you put words in my mouth. My arguments were specifically against the materia system, or similar systems where your characters roles could be swapped on the fly. Furthermore my arguments weren't against the materia system entirely as I would still like to see it as a major gameplay mechanic, just not the ONLY one.

 

[t0mmyg]

Also I would like to add, that limitations on how you play isn't completely arbitrary. The more limitations and focus the developers put into how you should play the game, the more tightly they can balance the difficulty, pacing, progression etc. Let's face it Final Fantasy 7 was easy. The North American version of 10 was somewhat challenging.

 

[Wolf_]

I think the problem you have today Hian is the fact that some people who lack the restraint or don't have an imagination, can't deal with being given a choice. They want a game to play a certain way by default, not play it that way off their own back. I think one of the best examples of this is the ps4 version of ff7. I hate the idea of having the option to cheat in the game, but I found myself using it because it was there.

If someone wants to have fixed rolls then they should incorporate it themselves. Someone like me shouldn't suffer for it.

 

[hian]

I preferred 10 North American version you silly goose.

Which allowed almost for the exact same amount of customization as the international version - it just didn't allow you to do it from the very get-go.

That was never my argument. It was more about making all the characters included in the game have an actual purpose.

Again, letting the player choose his character's purpose does not mean that a character does not have "an actual purpose". This very line is exactly why I brought up the religious example earlier - it's the exact same line of reasoning religious people bring out when they argue that a lack of a higher power to define a purpose for us - we have no real purpose.

It's flawed in both instances.

I care less about each character forcing you to play them one way, and more about including 7 needed and beneficial skill sets.

Good for you. My point still stands though - you can still do that in an open system.

Just like you wouldn't put Tifa in the story line and then never have her say a word, I feel it's just as important that she would be present in combat (Yes whether I enjoy her character or not). I think the main difference in our views is that you compartmentalize the story from the gameplay. And I put equal emphasis on the gameplay and the story for each character (Yes even the ones I'm not as fond of).

No, the problem here is that you fail to realize that whether I compartmentalize the story from the game-play or not, an open ended character development system does not mean that you have to do this - you can still play your characters in a way that you feel is congruent with the story.

Since that is the case - it is a better system, because while allowing you to have character A be the healer, as you feel is congruent with the story, I can also choose to ignore that if I don't care.

Let me ask you this. Do you think they should include an option to remove characters of your choice from the storyline at the beginning of the game?

Depends on what kind of game we're talking about, and whether such an open ended story set-up would even be feasible.
It's a moot question to ask though.
Rather I'd ask you this -
If it was possible, back then (without any concessions what so ever) to make an FFVII where the entire story of the game could be tailored entirely to each player - the original story of course being among the possibly directions one could go - would you "prefer that they didn't make that game, because to you, it's more than enough with just one plot"?

I feel as strongly about the gameplay. All characters should contribute something. I also feel like the characters skills should reflect who they are in the story.

And in an open ended system, like the materia system, you can make that happen.

However I never once said that I would dislike something like the international version of 10 you put words in my mouth.

Where did I say that you said this? So no, not putting words in your mouth. You are now however, putting words in mine...

My arguments were specifically against the materia system, or similar systems where your characters roles could be swapped on the fly.

Which are a sub-set of open-ended systems, where the same principle apply which is why my response is accurate to your attitude.

Roles being swappable on the fly, does not mean that you have to swap them on the fly, and if you make a conscious decision not to, the option should not have any bearing on you what so ever, which is why it makes no sense to prefer systems where the option isn't there.

Furthermore my arguments weren't against the materia system entirely as I would still like to see it as a major gameplay mechanic, just not the ONLY one.

And nowhere did I claim or argue as if it was.

Again, this is about you preferring systems that hand out specific roles to characters that you feel reflect the plot.
I am saying that to prefer that to a system that allows you to choose is nonsensical, since the addition of a choice does not in any way infringe on your ability to not engage with added option.

Also I would like to add, that limitations on how you play isn't completely arbitrary.

Never said they were.

The more limitations and focus the developers put into how you should play the game, the more tightly they can balance the difficulty, pacing, progression etc.

And this makes no difference what so ever to the point I was making.
You can still balance a game for one specific intended play-style while allowing people to opt out of that play-style.

Since you're one of those who would, I would presume, play the game as it was intended, that balancing would apply to you and you'd get the difficulty you want.
People with other concerns and preferences could then play around with the system, or break it, and have a blast doing that at no cost or impediment to you what so ever.

Let's face it Final Fantasy 7 was easy. The North American version of 10 was somewhat challenging.

Comparatively to what? How did you play the game the first time around?
Are you a completionist? Did you grind?

I breezed through FFX using just Yuna, and her summons in over-drive mode. Not once did I get stuck in that game, and I didn't need to stop and grind to clear it. Granted I could have made the experience more difficult by simply not using Yuna.
Again, there's that pesky advantage to open-ended systems

I remember playing FFVII first time around though at the end of elementary school, skimming through most dungeons, never grinding, and getting to the final boss with an average party level of around 40, with non of the over-powered skills etc.
The game was fairly difficult for me at the time. I got stuck in the fight against Reno, in the Shinra building elevator fight, against Gi Nattak, against the materia keeper, against the wall in temple of the ancient and many other places.

The beauty of FFVII's system is that its difficulty level is completely customizable, the same as the characters.
Try playing the game without grinding - or with specified class set-ups.
Try getting crossing the desert without a chocobo, and get Beta while you're at it.
Don't back-track to get the more powerful enemy skills after you get the manipulate materia.
Go to Wutai at first opportunity.

Or, like I'm doing now - play the game with the ATB set to active, and the speed set to max, while not grinding.

There is plenty of room for challenge in the game.
Again, the fact that the player is free to do with the system as she or he wants, and can have a hard time or easy time depending on approach is not a design flaw - it's versatility, and as such, a boon the the game for how accessible it becomes as a result.

I think the problem you have today Hian is the fact that some people who lack the restraint or don't have an imagination, can't deal with being given a choice. They want a game to play a certain way by default, not play it that way off their own back. I think one of the best examples of this is the ps4 version of ff7. I hate the idea of having the option to cheat in the game, but I found myself using it because it was there.

If someone wants to have fixed rolls then they should incorporate it themselves. Someone like me shouldn't suffer for it.

^^^^This^^^^

That's exactly what I'm trying to say (I even brought up that very example except with the random encounter switch).

Now, I play my FFVII with random encounters, and I'd never turn them off. I don't feel tempted to do so, nor that I need to.
That does not mean however, that I prefer a version without the option, seeing how welcome that option is to so many players out there.
I mean, good for them. Now they get to play the game the way the want, and I can still play it the way I want.
Win -win.

 

[Wolf_]

Well said. Apologies if I'd gone over the same thing as you. I saw the walls of text and thought "ain't nobody got time for that" and did what I usually do... Keep reiterating my point until it's accepted as fact lol

 

[t0mmyg]

It doesn't allow me to play the way I want though. I want the game to require me or at least provide great benefit to me using all of the imagined characters, I want the game to be more difficult if I neglect important party members. This does not happen in the materia system. We have very different thinking which is what I have said from the start and you are not wrong in your preference. However you are wrong in assuming the materia system allows me to play how I want, it doesn't. I don't want to create artificial difficulty for myself, I don't want to make up the characters in my imagination, I love the games story because somebody else thought up these brilliant characters. I don't want to be limited by my own imagination, I want to experience somebody elses. Therefore yes I want square enix to give the characters personalities in combat and yes I want to play them that way.

I guess at the end of the day my answer is a resounding yes, I prefer to be told by square enix what cloud is like in combat and how he differs from tifa, I don't want to make that up myself. If I want to make up my own characters I could write my own stories about them. And yes eventualy you could grind the end game and make the characters in 10 in north america all the same, but the majority of the game they followed a role and I liked that. And I liked that I didn't have the ability to imagine tidus as the black mage, because it wasn't my story it was squares, and I enjoyed that they made him play how they envisioned him being in combat.

 

[t0mmyg]

You are correct in assuming I don't want square to give me characters and say, "who do you think these characters are?" I want them to tell me who they are both in the story and gameplay. Mind you I like choice in that I want to make choices in what to equip them with, or which branch of the tree I should choose, but at the end of the day Tidus was the fast energetic quick hitting guy that provided party buffs with his charisma, it wasn't because I had the choice to play him that way, but somebody else could see him as the brooding black mage magic wielder and that was fine. It wasn't because, that wasn't the character they invented.

 

[Ite]

You gotta EARN that Enemy Away materia!! None of this playing on the bus BULLSHIT. FFVII is a sit-your-ass-down and devote the next few hours to BEING COMPLETELY ENRAPTURED.

 

[t0mmyg]

The type of gameplay you describe has it's place, and I think it lends itself better to a game say like dark souls or bloodborne (games I absolutely love) where you are a single faceless enitity, just as you can decide how the character will play, you can decide how he looks, what his past is. The story is purposely vague and doesn't revolve around you. Therefore it makes sense to have systems like you outlined in a game like this, or skyrim. But in a game about the characters with multiple characters there is a disconnect between that style of gameplay and the story.

 

[Wolf_]

But Materia is an important part of the story. Anyone can buy it and use it (a little kid gives you ultima) and there are rolls in the game. Some are all physical, some are all magic and some are a balance. It's been said before but the limit breaks are the best example of this. You want a white Mage? Use Aeris until she gets kebab'd. Clouds limits are all damage, Nanaki had a good balance of attacks and boosts. Tifa (the martial artist) adds to her combat as she grows and trains. I don't know what more you want

 

[Octo]

This thread is going to reach 9000 posts isn't it?

 

[t0mmyg]

But Materia is an important part of the story. Anyone can buy it and use it (a little kid gives you ultima) and there are rolls in the game. Some are all physical, some are all magic and some are a balance. It's been said before but the limit breaks are the best example of this. You want a white Mage? Use Aeris until she gets kebab'd. Clouds limits are all damage, Nanaki had a good balance of attacks and boosts. Tifa (the martial artist) adds to her combat as she grows and trains. I don't know what more you want

Skill trees bro skill trees, and more robust tactical limit breaks. Imagine Final Fantasy 7's world, with North American 10's gameplay in real time but throw materia in there like diablos gear. And before that Hian guy says, but at the end of 10 you could do whatever you want, that's the one part I didn't like, I felt that was a gameplay flaw. I understand that you guys disagree with me, and I have never once said your opinion is not valid it's all preference. Just please stop saying we can both play the way we want under the materia system. I don't want to play the exact same game for the 1000th time. And I don't want to "make up" my own characters. I trust the developers to do that for me.

 

[Wolf_]

First off I HATE ff10. So your not onto a good start there haha. You are choosing to play the same game over and over again. I'd put real money on it that I have completed ff7 more than anyone on this site, and at no point have I felt I was repeating myself. I've done runs with no materia, runs with just materia (when available) using only 2 characters all the way through, rotating teams at every city, giving only white/black magic to certain characters. It's as diverse as you like. You playing it the easy way is your choice and yours alone. The world of ff has some of the most well thought out characters with the most detailed backstories. I don't need Tifa to be shit at magic to feel like she isn't living up to her character as a fighter.

They're all yours Hian. I'm bowing out before I get another infraction for telling it like it is.

 

[t0mmyg]

Wolf. I have absolutely no retort to your comment. It makes sense, you didn't like 10. That's a conversation I can have. You made a solid point I can actually reason with. You enjoy the freedom to play how you want. My constant replies were never trying to convince you guys that my thoughts on the combat system were superior, the entire time I was simply trying to explain why it is that I prefer a different system and that NO an open ended system did not in fact allow both of us to play how we wanted.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This is an interesting conversation. I just want to say that, and that -- while I overall share hian's preference and opinions on this -- I'm appreciating a lot of what you are saying as well, t0mmy.

 

[Clement Rage]

Still on the other side of the fence from you, TTM, but agreed on this being an interesting debate, even if it could be more polite in some respects.

I still don't agree that open ended systems are a win-win. Certain kinds of stories can be told with fixed roles that can't be told with an open ended system, a setting can establish that summoners are born, not made, either you have the skills or you don't. You can't do that in a setting where everyone can be everything. FF9 was one such setting, where the plot hinged on summoners being summoners and that being a rare, non transferable ability and allowed for subtle storytelling through the battle system, because the developers know roughly what abilities the characters have, they can then show them outside battles and use them to solve problems in the plot. If you have a level of control over the battle system, you can use it for storytelling (Zidane has an oddly powerful trance, what's that about) In FF13, because the characters had fixed Eidolons, it was possible to have them summoned in cutscenes to solve problems faced by the characters. That is something that can't be done if no abilities are fixed to the characters.No PCs can cast magic in cutscenes in FF7, because the devs can't know what's equipped. (I am not arguing against the materia system, to be clear, but I don't think that fixed roles are something that must be eliminated from every game ever either.)

As far being penalised if you hate close to half the cast (including heavily plot relevant ones you'll be seeing a lot of anyway) and refuse on principle to use the tools given to you, maybe you're playing the wrong game? If you're playing an Arkham game, and refuse to use the grapnel on principle, does it make sense to complain that the game is now too difficult?

 

[Ite]

My stance is: FFVII's system was indeed married to the story and themes. Playing the game, and achieving a mastery of the game, is as much about materia growth as it is about character growth, because the Planet is a pretty major character in the story, and the central thematic focus of the entire thing.

Skill trees are great. D&D is great. FFIX and IV are great. Play them again if you like! And if the remake decides to cut materia altogether? The OG isn't going anywhere.