Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Alex Strife]

why would they use the phrase "an independent AVALANCHE cell" when they could have just said "The leader of AVALANCHE"?

Very fair point!! That does make it sound like there could be more of AVALANCHE elsewhere...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Everything you guys have said makes sense and sounds good. Given Barret's character, it stands to reason that he would join an existing anti-Shinra organisation rather than start one, then try to lead it, then get drummed out because he doesn't know how to be discrete, so he leaves and takes some of the other extreme elements with him. I hope they don't tone down the civilian casualities for the remake, or make our heroes and villains too black and white (so to speak).

 

[Odysseus]

Oh boy, I'm definitely excited to see where they're going with Barret's expanded back story! I wonder if they'll go into how Tifa got involved, I always thought it was weird that it was never really explained how she and Barret met. Maybe Zangan had some connections with the original Avalanche and they met through there? Also, if this officially makes before crisis non-canon, thank fucking god.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

I would like to try seeing things from a different perspective. This could be seem a little bit out of left field for some, but I hope you guys are still with me here.

Assuming the Remake doesn't introduce any connenctions between Wutai and Avalanche in the present, the whole meaning behind Pr. Shinra's speech would turn Barret's group into actual traitors/agents, who're working for Wutai's interests. This would alienate them much further from the organisation Avalanche, what already sees them as lunatic fringe. With that in mind, Shinra tries to stifle any possible support that could rise from other cells, if Barret is seeking help from them.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping the Remake would do. It's nice to see SE developing characters more.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I was under the impression President Shinra meant he was going to spread some fake news about Avalanche working hand in glove with Wutai, so as to smear both his enemies simultaneously. I didn't think we were meant to take it as the gospel truth, or that there was any real association between Avalanche and Wutai.

 

[Ite]

I think they meant the propaganda might be a way to play multiple factions of AVALANCHE against each other by spreading the lie that the independent cell is working with a foreign power.

 

[Saven]

This just makes me want the scene where Reeve/Cait Sith calls Barret out on his ways right before they go back to Midgar at the end of Disc 2 even more. It seems we are going to be seeing more of what Reeve hated in the guy in the Remake and I can't wait. It was one of my favorite scenes in the original.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I really love all this moral ambiguity in the game - nobody is wholly good or wholly evil (except maybe President Shinra), and I hope they keep it.

 

[Jairus]

While it's good that they're adding a lot of such moral complexity to the story and characters, I just hope they don't get carried away. It's possible, I think, to have too much gray and not know who or what anyone is supposed to be anymore. There need to be at least some things that are black and white. Not everything, of course, but a balance between that and the gray, and doing so would better highlight the differences between the two and allow more character, story, and world exploration than either extreme alone could do, I think.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think you already have enough black in FFVII that can never get the "is it right or is it wrong" treatment. The game never gives Hojo and Sephiroth a good reason for what they did.

Hojo playing around with people's lives? Never justified. Ever.

Sephiroth wanting to destory the planet with Metor? He knows the entire line about Jenova being an Ancient and being hunted by humans was fake. And he still decides to destroy the world just because he wants too.

The defeat of Hojo and Sephrioth are really where the plot of the OG ends. What happens to Shin-Ra is left much more up in the air.

 

[Jairus]

Yeah, I suppose that's true, Obs. Just wanted to be sure the remake retains that balance, is all. I'm pretty sure it will, though. They seem to be doing everything else really well so far.

 

[jazzflower92]

I think you already have enough black in FFVII that can never get the "is it right or is it wrong" treatment. The game never gives Hojo and Sephiroth a good reason for what they did.

Hojo playing around with people's lives? Never justified. Ever.

Sephiroth wanting to destory the planet with Metor? He knows the entire line about Jenova being an Ancient and being hunted by humans was fake. And he still decides to destroy the world just because he wants too.

The defeat of Hojo and Sephrioth are really where the plot of the OG ends. What happens to Shin-Ra is left much more up in the air.

For Sephiroth, even though he's never justified becoming what he is, fell from being a morally good person to what he is now. In contrast, Hojo was always bad to the bone. Sephiroth is irredeemable in his current form, but he wasn't always that way.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

I was under the impression President Shinra meant he was going to spread some fake news about Avalanche working hand in glove with Wutai, so as to smear both his enemies simultaneously. I didn't think we were meant to take it as the gospel truth, or that there was any real association between Avalanche and Wutai.

I'm absolutely aware about the fact there's nothing nailed in stone when it comes to the connection between these two organisations. At this point, the only other fact we know is that President Shinra is using Wutai as temporary scapegoat.

Now here comes the part that is "coming out of left field". To be more precise, I'm theorising that President Shinra doesn't associate Avalanche with Wutai at all! He DOESN'T call them Avalanche, but "sewer rats". I believe it was Tets that mentioned, how it seems like they never heared about Avalanche before. I think it has something to do with Heidegger's mocking undertone, like he doesn't believe they're REAL Avalanche members: "These sewer rats appear to call themselves Avalanche, Sir." Maybe Shinra knew about Barret's group and how they were isolated from the main faction. For them, they were only a bunch of delusional wannabe terrorists, until to the point when they blew up the first reactor. Yes, it's true they were under surveillance through the whole time during bombing run, but Shinra actually never thought they would come out alive, especially with the Scorpion Sentinel as their ace in the hole. And normally that would've been the case, but there was one factor they didn't calculate, CLOUD! With that successful strike against Shinra, other cells would change their minds and decide to give them a helping hand after all. As reaction to that, Shinra hastily plans a countermeasure to intercept possible threats from the main faction. And that's how the conspiracy against Barret's group was born.

In the end, Shinra understimated their enemy (oh, déjà vu), and the whole hologram spectacel was nothing but show, because in reality, Wutai was the only thing they come up with in that short time. This would mirror the Shinra company l remembered from the OG days. When an enemy appears that is more than your average infantry soldier, this company proofs to be absolutely incompetent to deal with the problem.

 

[Roger]

I'm absolutely aware about the fact there's nothing nailed in stone when it comes to the connection between these two organisations. At this point, the only other fact we know is that President Shinra is using Wutai as temporary scapegoat.

Now here comes the part that is "coming out of left field". To be more precise, I'm theorising that President Shinra doesn't associate Avalanche with Wutai at all! He DOESN'T call them Avalanche, but "sewer rats". I believe it was Tets that mentioned, how it seems like they never heared about Avalanche before. I think it has something to do with Heidegger's mocking undertone, like he doesn't believe they're REAL Avalanche members: "These sewer rats appear to call themselves Avalanche, Sir." Maybe Shinra knew about Barret's group and how they were isolated from the main faction. For them, they were only a bunch of delusional wannabe terrorists, until to the point when they blew up the first reactor. Yes, it's true they were under surveillance through the whole time during bombing run, but Shinra actually never thought they would come out alive, especially with the Scorpion Sentinel as their ace in the hole. And normally that would've been the case, but there was one factor they didn't calculate, CLOUD! With that successful strike against Shinra, other cells would change their minds and decide to give them a helping hand after all. As reaction to that, Shinra hastily plans a countermeasure to intercept possible threats from the main faction. And that's how the conspiracy against Barret's group was born.

In the end, Shinra understimated their enemy (oh, déjà vu), and the whole hologram spectacel was nothing but show, because in reality, Wutai was the only thing they come up with in that short time. This would mirror the Shinra company l remembered from the OG days. When an enemy appears that is more than your average infantry soldier, this company proofs to be absolutely incompetent to deal with the problem.

Clearly Shinra is gonna choose to allow the second reactor to be blown up while being fully capable of stopping it just like in the original. I don't think they care about Mako Reactor 1 that much, if anything, making people be scared to live in Midgar is good for President Shinra longterm, he wants people to want to move to Neo-Midgar.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

You can't deny that Avalanche wasn't prepared to fight against the Scorpion Sentinel. Barret couldn't identify it and what tactics they needed to destroy their enemy. Without Cloud, they would've been killed on the spot.

 

[Roger]

You can't deny that Avalanche wasn't prepared to fight against the Scorpion Sentinel. Barret couldn't identify it and what tactics they needed to destroy their enemy. Without Cloud, they would've been killed on the spot.

Sure but the way that thing fought it would have certainly rendered the Reactor inoperational by the time it hunted down and killed Jessie, Biggs and Wedge. Can't deny that either.

 

[Ite]

Yep. Let’s see how Heidegger and Scarlet’s new toy stacks up against these wannabes... what? It almost destroyed the reactor core with its laser? Shit. And they defeated it? They have a what? A SOLDIER? Well so do we, right? Who’s left? Mullet Cheese?? What happened to J-Pop Redcoat? I can’t be expected to remember everyone’s name.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Damn, Ite. That was funny shit.

 

[Jairus]

Yeah it was, but not as funny as when he had Vincent talking in surfer slang like he was in a Bill & Ted movie. That was a riot!

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah it was, but not as funny as when he had Vincent talking in surfer slang like he was in a Bill & Ted movie. That was a riot!

Shouldn't he be talking 70's slang instead?

 

[Jairus]

That's what I meant, yeah, it was something like that. Absolutely hilarious, lol.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

Sure but the way that thing fought it would have certainly rendered the Reactor inoperational by the time it hunted down and killed Jessie, Biggs and Wedge. Can't deny that either.

1. With Scorpion Sentinel's success of stopping the trial, you would need to subtract the additional damage the bomb would have made
2. We cannot say for sure, if SS's havoc would have been enough to destroy the reactor's core
3. SS would've need to follow the Avalanche trio's escape route through the surface, that would've brought him further away from the reactor core, so the damage he deals at this point isn't very effective
4. If Shinra's top priority would've been the destruction of the reactor, then why did they call SS to interfere Avalanche by ACTUAL DOING TERRORisty THINGS anyway?

One of my biggest fears is, that SE will unnecessary convolute the story with this new plotline. In the OG, Shinra goes with the flow of events, and thought it would be a great opportunity to relive the Neo-Midgar plan. There was no indication they intrigued the first two bombing trials at all.

 

[Roger]

I didn't say destroy the core, i said render the reactor inoperational. The core is useless if the pipes that carry the Mako away have holes in it.

One of my biggest fears is, that SE will unnecessary convolute the story with this new plotline. In the OG, Shinra goes with the flow of events, and thought it would be a great opportunity to relive the Neo-Midgar plan. There was no indication they intrigued the first two bombing trials at all.

Would do you mean, President Shinra was waiting for them with an ambush when they came out of Mako Reactor 5. No indication was made that they were interested in disarming the bomb they obviously came there to place. Having already lost 1 reactor, losing a second reactor was considered acceptable losses to ambush a few key members of AVALANCHE in the OG. Showing them being willing to put Mako Reactor 1 in harms way in the first place is a very small stretch in my mind. More then worth it, if it means getting more scenes with President Shinra before he bites the big one.

 

[Clement Rage]

Cloud does advise the exact opposite of of what they should do, in fairness.

Could Barret take the Scorpion Guard? Maybe. Cloud talks a big game, but he's not that much better a fighter, at least in the opening mission.

So Shinra has to replace some punctured pipes. Not a big deal.

Are we sure that the Prez allowed them to bomb reactor 5? Maybe EOD just didn't get to it on time, or Jessie makes a really good bomb they can't easily disarm.

Initially, they get detected on the train, which instantly locks down, forcing them to jump off. Ideally, they would have been caught there.

After which they do a lot of skulking around in vents and hiding. Maybe they get a sudden alert and have to scramble to pin them down.