Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[looneymoon]

fuck you ite I thought we were in this together I'm also drunk you beach

edit: also it was KH3 that brought you there?¿¿ not even KH2?? Come on my dude

 

[cold_spirit]

I'm drunk lol and being completely sincere. It's the internet version of grabbing Nomura by the neck and being like "You know, I love you guy, you're a total shit, but you got your own hustle and I respect that about ya."

I feel like lots of people get to this point eventually haha. From my outside perspective, KH fans seem to know it's ridiculous, but they have fun with it and find meaning anyway.

 

[Ite]

Well, KH is Nomura's toybox, it's his, start to finish, and as such, it's got its thing for sure. It's emotional and melodramatic, free of the shackles of logic or consequence. It's like scrolling through the fan tumblr of a teenage weeaboo who doesn't know he's gay yet, and the fanart becomes more ocs than Disney characters - that's kind of how high the stakes are as well. It's not the kind of thing I go for in a Final Fantasy game, which is why I find the FF series is no longer to my taste.

Plus, seeing KH3 has renewed my great love for the FF7R combat system and level design.

 

[looneymoon]

I am skeptical of KH being his toy box, mostly because of the Disney interference. This isn't a slight against him, more an observation of how it feels like the uniquely KH aspects seem to want to break free of the Disney rigidity. I think FFVersus15 was supposed to be what you describe... but alas.

That said, I was a teenage emo ("was" being very debatable here). So there is a certain love for Kingdom Hearts... but we all... know what it is. The same way we all pretty much know that The Black Parade is MCR'S worst album. Its an unwritten truth that resides in our heart of hearts

Also I love and hate FF7R for a lot of reasons, but level design goes firmly in the hate end. I'm hoping that the approach to maps in PS5 alleviates a lot of those grievances.

Actually, one trap I hope FF7R-2 doesn't fall into is something that was really made KH3 not fun was the floaty aerial combat. But I am inebriated and this thread is for story thoughts so maybe not the place to be concerned about that /thinking emoji

 

[Wol]

I didn't come to terms with KH, I simply dropped from my list of "not worth it of my time".

Its too much investing just to end up with a weaboo teenager fantasy (which would be ok, if playing multiple convoluted fragmented games wasn't a thing, or if delivered something greater). But it starts from wacko nonsense just to build up to more wacko nonsense, to justify more nonsense in sequels... Its never-ending.

Now I just enjoy the stellar music and the beautifully crafted trailers and that's enough.

 

[Stiggie]

Maybe someone should break up the sequels through several lenses and then see which pattern fits most of them.
By that I mean, one way to predict the locations of chapters of the length is the counting of areas in the first game.
Another is by counting story beats, another is by finding sidequest locations etc.
I am sure all of these have different answers but maybe if it's all laid out side by side some scenario may emerge that seems likelier than the rest.

Spoiler: Spoilers for everything

I was interested in the fact that one poster cut up the nibleheim flashback in two parts, pre-jenova, and post-jenova.
This is a good point because the original flashback always seemed very long, which is why they specifically ask you if you want to save and quit halfway through. I've hear people argue that the game should open with the flashback, and others that think it shouldn't happen until we make our way to Kalm.
But the idea that they're going to split it up and actually have things happen in between is also eminently plausible I think.


When it comes story beats I'd like to look at what would be good places for breaks as well. If we ignore actual game length for instance, what would be the events that are most fitting for the end of a game? The end for remake part 1 was very suited for several reasons, Geographically you left from Midgar, a confined city environment to a supposedly more open world concept. Storywise it's the part where the focus shifts from Avalanche and Shinra to Cloud/Aerith and Sephiroth. It fundamentally changes everything, so it was an obvious cutoff point and was predicted way before we ever got confirmation.
Additionally, SE added in an extra story conclusion with the whispers, which are set-up at the start of the game, and paid off at the end.
I think that if we can find a similar story arc the begins and concludes at two logical points that would be the obvious thing for SE to aim at if at all possible.

And the most obvious thing for that, in my mind, is Nibleheim. Nibleheim is one of the most important overarching storyarcs in FFVII imo. People remember Aeriths death but that is almost completely separate from it.
Narratively speaking, starting the next game with the story of Nibleheim seems certain, which means that ending it with the shocking twist that Nibleheim is a lie would be the obvious place to end it. Leaving the question off the truth as a cliff hangar for the next game.
This also seems like a point where SE could mess around and add/change things in order to screw with the original fans and make them wonder what the new "true Nibleheim telling" is going to be.

That having been said, that's a lot of content to cover and there are more storylines and storybeats that would be good as an ending imo, if we ignore set-up and positioning.

1:Temple of the ancients and Aerith leaving.
2: Death of Aerith.
3: Second Nibleheim visit.
4: Summoning of Meteor.

And yeah, maybe Gongaga if they make that more impactful somehow.

All I am willing to predict is that it'll end at one of those places, but I have no idea which one.

 

[Ite]

Us outsiders are, of course, imagining an infinite budget and only the barest limitations on tech. And for my part, I’m only considering how to approach a faithful retelling of the original story, and it’s clear that’s not what they mean by Remake. I don’t suppose that needed to be said, but it’s a good reminder of the salt rock to keep in our mouths while enjoying with these kinds of predictions.

@cold_spirit I can’t imagine a Yuffie forest encounter being an entire chapter unto itself. Even with an extended scene it’s still a boss fight, a scene, and the acquisition of a new party member — which will take up as much of a Chapter as meeting Aeris and fighting Reno in Chapter 8. Otherwise, I think you nail it.

I would actually love Part 2’s finale to be Gongaga, unlikely as it may seem at first. Because Zack is a big albatross question hanging over Part 2, there’s a lot of opportunity for his hometown to resolve/develop that in a meaningful way for Compilation fans without steamrolling over a sequence I am looking forward to seeing recreated faithfully.

It also starts Part 3 in Cosmo Canyon, which will allow that section to really breathe, although it does seem to turn the revelation about Mako in Bugenhagen’s orrery to a kind of early game exposition dump, but is that so bad? The only issue (and this would be true if Nibelheim was the finale as well) is another Inventory/Materia reset for no reason.

 

[cold_spirit]

Maybe someone should break up the sequels through several lenses and then see which pattern fits most of them.

I know off the top of my head that Tim Rogers (previous Kotaku writer, currently CEO of Action Button) has claimed in multiple videos that the events in Midgar make up 1/3 of the OG's script.

 

[cold_spirit]

Sorry, double post.

I can’t imagine a Yuffie forest encounter being an entire chapter unto itself. Even with an extended scene it’s still a boss fight, a scene, and the acquisition of a new party member — which will take up as much of a Chapter as meeting Aeris and fighting Reno in Chapter 8.

Good point. Just want to explain what's in my head. The distance between Fort Condor and Junon is vast. Part 1 has chapters 5 and 6 to portray the distance between the Sector 7 slums and Mako Reactor 5. Both chapters are used to world build (monster nests in the train system, sun lamps). If part 1 has chapters that delve into Midgar's grittiness, then I want part 2 to have chapters that delve into the world's beauty. Specifically through nature. Give me a serene river among the trees to rest at. Give me rolling fields that you can imagine the Highwind flying over. Plus, Yuffie would be around to harass the party periodically, moving the plot forward.

 

[Ite]

I know off the top of my head that Tim Rogers (previous Kotaku writer, currently CEO of Action Button) has claimed in multiple videos that the events in Midgar make up 1/3 of the OG's script.

Totally. Unfortunately, the art and environments begin to eclipse the raw dialogue in terms of telling the story after Midgar. If a picture says 1000 words, Midgar is a relatively small portion of the FF7 source material. Turning each of those images into an asset-loaded 3D environment is so much more length, both of production time and actual gameplay focus (Chapter 6 of Remake is based on a single screen) which is why The Northern Crater immediately sticks out as a pie-sky idea for a Part 2 Ending. I wish it weren't so.

Part 1 has chapters 5 and 6 to portray the distance between the Sector 7 slums and Mako Reactor 5. Both chapters are used to world build (monster nests in the train system, sun lamps). If part 1 has chapters that delve into Midgar's grittiness, then I want part 2 to have chapters that delve into the world's beauty. Specifically through nature. Give me a serene river among the trees to rest at. Give me rolling fields that you can imagine the Highwind flying over. Plus, Yuffie would be around to harass the party periodically, moving the plot forward.

I'm in total agreeance with you here. One of my favorite Amano pieces of all time is this'un:

This gives me the sense of a grand adventure, with bonds of friendship not just forged through fire, but also growing through a long journey. I want a travel montage set to the Main Theme every chapter damnit!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Kingdom Hearts was actually the example I was thinking of, lol

Kingdom Hearts 2 vastly went beyond the limits and length of the previous game. With respect to game design ethos and scope, KH3 offered larger and more vertical worlds, a vastly expanded gummi ship quest line, pirate ship exploration of the seas and a retooled battle system and gimmick for magic/attractions/forms/etc. Regardless of it's misplaced focus or missing aspects that were left behind in 2, KH3 is still objectively a vastly different and expanded game. There were less worlds but the worlds were longer and larger (for better or worst). Each KH game does go beyond the last and aren't copies of the same design formula.

If there were only those three games in the series, you might have a valid point (actually, after meditation: still 100 percent no The overall game structure and formula is very much shared between the three), but there are also several other games in the series -- and I know I've seen a lot of sentiments to the effect of "If I have to play through fucking Wonderland, Agrabah, or Halloween Town one more time ..."

 

[Odysseus]

I'm in total agreeance with you here. One of my favorite Amano pieces of all time is this'un:

This gives me the sense of a grand adventure, with bonds of friendship not just forged through fire, but also growing through a long journey. I want a travel montage set to the Main Theme every chapter damnit

It'd be kinda cool if we got an Amano-art influenced Buster Sword as a secret weapon or something.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If there were only those three games in the series, you might have a valid point (actually, after meditation: still 100 percent no The overall game structure and formula is very much shared between the three), but there are also several other games in the series -- and I know I've seen a lot of sentiments to the effect of "If I have to play through fucking Wonderland, Agrabah, or Halloween Town one more time ..."

Well when you factor in the spinoffs that are handheld games, there's the fact the development is hamstrung by the nature of the technology. They can't do all that they want to do with the hardware and you get games like Re:Coded and Dream Drop Distance essentially sharing the same command deck battle system and playing similarly with asset reuse. However you also get unique games like Chain of Memories and BBS that definitely do something different for what they are.

The samey selection of worlds is repetitive, I agree but that's also a reflection of the connection to Disney. That's a corporate consequence that they can't just jettison thanks to their entertainment overlord. However, since the Remake isn't constrained like those spinoffs and is going to be a full console game, I thought it better to look at the design of the main series titles.

The main titles do at least offer a better variety of new worlds that offer something novel in every new game. How you get there and the narrative structure of Sora going world to world is pretty much analagous to a typical JRPG that has you hop from town to town, dungeon to dungeon. Except in KH1 you visit the worlds once and are done, while KH2 has you revisit each world several times in differing order. KH3 reverts back to KH1's style, presumably due to the worlds being larger. They share a similar structure since KH is all about crossover and world hopping, meaning that's baked into the brand, but they do express it differently and evolve it's gameplay. The only world I would say is derivative going through the main series is 100 Acre Woods because it certainly felt like they phoned that in in KH3, and to a lesser extent in KH2.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The virtual reality film in the Shinra Building's entertainment hall made their world look stunningly beautiful. I don't think we need to worry about that. What I hope is that we don't just move through it, but can interact with it. Rest in the shade, as cold spirit said. Pick fruit from trees. Take a rowboat across a pond, smell flowers, etc... Can you just imagine how excited Aerith would be to see all these new species of flowers? She'd want to learn all about them. In fact, I hope they spend a little time dwelling on how each of the characters feel about being out of the Big Smog and back in nature.

Also, I would really love it if sometimes their monsters weren't quite so... ugly. Real world animals can be majestically gorgeous; some of theirs should be, too. They have a chance here to make some of them adorable, like the muu, and the jumpings. Fuzzy wuzzy big-eyed little bastards who can kick your ass. I'm looking forward to the elfadunk and the epiornis.

 

[Odysseus]

For the most part the remake's enemies are lifted straight from the original, so we're in for some weird looking things lol. Right outta midgar we're gonna be fighting living motorbikes and Ostriches.

 

[Wol]

For the most part the remake's enemies are lifted straight from the original, so we're in for some weird looking things lol. Right outta midgar we're gonna be fighting living motorbikes and Ostriches.

I want a Mad Max type of sequence with Devil Riders on the wastelands outside Midgar.

It would almost redeem the terrible ending, almost.

 

[Torrie]

I love reading all of your suppositions, it really brings so much fun. But I myself am not that good at theorizing (or perhaps just don't feel like doing it), so I'm just going to be waiting for whatever comes with Part 2 I'm only looking forward to seeing the familiar locations in its modern graphic brilliance, especially after CC already attempted to breathe more life into them.

Because Zack is a big albatross

LMAO

I hope they spend a little time dwelling on how each of the characters feel about being out of the Big Smog and back in nature.

Yeah, I fully agree. I want to continue investing in the characters emotionally, so that would be a great way for a player to do it.

Real world animals can be majestically gorgeous; some of theirs should be, too. They have a chance here to make some of them adorable, like the muu, and the jumpings.

Would be nice for a change as well! I believe the point is to make the FF7 fauna as different from our world as possible, but that doesn't mean they can't be cute, of course. But once again, CC comes to mind: there were tons of monsters which had escaped from Hojo's lab, and I assume by the time our team made it out of Midgar, they had already spawned in big numbers. Hence the ugliness.

 

[Saven]

I want a Mad Max type of sequence with Devil Riders on the wastelands outside Midgar.

It would almost redeem the terrible ending, almost.

I expect the boss fight outside of Kalm and Midgar is going to involve Beck's Badasses and Devil Rider(s), if they want to continue using them throughout the remake.

 

[Kain424]

Honestly, thinking about this next section (my favorite portion from the original game) has got me hyped again. All the world, enemies, and interesting story beats.

I actively hope they keep Yuffie as optional. I mean, it's not a dealbreaker, but that would be cool to me. It may make for a trickier development, but having dialog and certain scenes be different depending on your party make up would be great for replayability.

But yeah, the variant animal and enemy types should be a neat addition. Just based on the things we saw in Midgar, I think we can expect to see some great new versions of everything.

 

[msia2k75]

Honestly, thinking about this next section (my favorite portion from the original game) has got me hyped again. All the world, enemies, and interesting story beats.

I actively hope they keep Yuffie as optional. I mean, it's not a dealbreaker, but that would be cool to me. It may make for a trickier development, but having dialog and certain scenes be different depending on your party make up would be great for replayability.

But yeah, the variant animal and enemy types should be a neat addition. Just based on the things we saw in Midgar, I think we can expect to see some great new versions of everything.

0% chance of happening. They won't create her moveset, dialogue (voice acting) and co. to keep it optional.

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah, I got into this at some point before, but you can't really do optional content on that scale anymore. You would have to create two versions of every scene she could or couldn't be in, or alternatively conspicuously leave her out of all of them (see the original's ending scene) and I doubt Square wants to do either, it would be a waste of resources. The most I could see them doing is making it optional when she gets recruited within a certain range (a chapter or two) to reference the original a bit.

 

[Stiggie]

0% chance of happening. They won't create her moveset, dialogue (voice acting) and co. to keep it optional.

Not only that, I could actually imagine them doing that, but the bigger problem is how they would incorporate that into cutscenes. We've seen at the end of remake how much fuss and difficulties go into having to make multiple cutscenes for variable parties. They simply aren't going to do that. I think that even if you can choose your party in part 2, the people who are in cutscenes will be almost entirely fixed.

In the original you could have interchangeable dialogue and models, doesn't work now, too complicated. I honestly still think one of the biggest reasons for the "unknown future" is that SE simply knew that after exiting midgar, keeping the game 1-on-1 faithful would be impossible even if just for this reason alone, and that's a large part of why they said "screw it, stuff needs to change".

We saw how difficult it was to keep the three party system justified "why isn't Barret fighting alongside us? Oh, he's temporarily dead, oh, now we're separated, oh, now he's fighting the harbinger". Now imagine that for a full roster of interchangeable characters.

Yuffie will definitely be mandatory, simply because your party composition is most likely going to be a lot more railroaded if my guesses are correct.

edit:

Yeah, I got into this at some point before, but you can't really do optional content on that scale anymore. You would have to create two versions of every scene she could or couldn't be in, or alternatively conspicuously leave her out of all of them (see the original's ending scene) and I doubt Square wants to do either, it would be a waste of resources. The most I could see them doing is making it optional when she gets recruited within a certain range (a chapter or two) to reference the original a bit.

Damn, beat me to it.

 

[Odysseus]

Damn, beat me to it.

Don't worry you mentioned a lot of stuff I didn't lol.
The party composition isn't something I had thought about, but you're right. I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't often get to choose who is in the party when, we never did in part 1. I almost don't mind that, this way the scenes won't have to be written with any possible party combination in mind, so this way the characters who are in the scene can act more like themselves and not be stuck with some stock lines like in the original.

 

[Kain424]

That's an interesting take. Although I'm thinking there is a bit more likelihood they will keep things closer to the original than find reasons to constantly split the group and write an entirely new story.

But then again, it is certainly possible they'll wipe the whole board and start new. There's been much talk of multiple timelines, split timelines, and so on. I suppose it is possible they would add new characters that would seem incompatible enough to cause a rift. But I really don't know.

Mainly, however, I don't buy into the whole "it would be too much work" hypothesis I see others doing. They seem to relish challenges, enjoy pleasing the fans, and have made a conscious decision to follow the primary beats of the original game so far. I haven't seen anything that would indicate they would short-thrift Final Fantasy VII fans in such a way just yet. It's possible, sure, but I don't see any reason to think that right now.

 

[leowhy77]

Don’t know about you guys but I kinda miss Charley and hope to see him in every future town visits (Kali, Juninho, wutai, etc...)
He’s an important source of materia after all..LOL