Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[ChipNoir]

If they do that, sure. What's got you thinking that, by the way?

I expect everything to be expanded, frankly. It's a good opportunity to spend more time with the Avalanche Crew, and get to know the city of Midgar. So that means they need devices to frame that narrative. Missions to the surface to gather intel and supplies seems the most reasonable way to do it. Steal supplies, spy on police rotations, do odd jobs in exchange for gil or information. Avalanche has to be getting its supplies from somewhere, so this answers that question while dovetailing in the much needed exposition for Biggs, Wedge, and Jesse.

 

[Clement Rage]

Being able to go up to the plate whenever you want undermines much of the plot built on how hard it is to get through the ID checkpoints.

And encountering Denzel would feel very unnatural to me, it'd be way too coincidental to run into the one orphan that survives the fall. Nods are fine, but winking at everything goes too far, like how BC made a Turk an integral part of every FF7 PC's past, which was really hard for me to believe.

Re: the earlier post, they're Sephiroth copies, not Cloud copies.

 

[Unit-01]

Being able to go up to the plate whenever you want undermines much of the plot built on how hard it is to get through the ID checkpoints.

I totally feel this is where they could add in additional content for Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge.

IIRC Jessie was in charge of getting fake IDs, and I feel they could have a side quest that might be in charge of getting said IDs and therefor explain how Cloud would be able to freely go to the upper plate.

That or they just climb up to it from the bottom of the Shinra building.
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This is assuming they are going to be making Midgar as open as everyone believes.

Midgar is maybe 5 hours max of the original game. I'd be interested to see what they add to the unexplored sectors, but there is only so much you can do.
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Edit - Typed this before reading ChipNoir's post. Those are also excellent ways to add to Biggs,Wedge and Jessie.

 

[Ite]

Usually you get the free-roam option after the plot has driven you through an area already, but as it is, Midgar is *so* on the rails that your passing through an area renders it destroyed or otherwise inaccessible. The only time you could possibly implement free-roam is between the first two reactor missions, as after the second one you're mere hours away from the plate dropping and the trains not working anymore. So (without re-working the entire story ground-up) the free-roam would happen after the first mission? And then be taken away? Doesn't seem like the best idea flow-wise, but I am a voracious consumer of side content anyway.

Another option would be to remove the Golden Shiny Wire of Convenience and let the player find a way onto the Plate that takes a dozen hours and leads to a dozen side quests and big old Midgar adventure! I'm sure Aeris is perfectly safe at Shinra HQ. It's not like Sector 7 spoiled the mood or added any urgency o wait

There's also leaving Midgar, then turning right back around for side quests (maybe after the Kalm flashback?) That gives you Aeris and Red XIII, and a vague "search for Sephiroth" main quest that really isn't that urgent until the Temple of the Ancients.

 

[ChipNoir]

Usually you get the free-roam option after the plot has driven you through an area already, but as it is, Midgar is *so* on the rails that your passing through an area renders it destroyed or otherwise inaccessible. The only time you could possibly implement free-roam is between the first two reactor missions, as after the second one you're mere hours away from the plate dropping and the trains not working anymore. So (without re-working the entire story ground-up) the free-roam would happen after the first mission? And then be taken away? Doesn't seem like the best idea flow-wise, but I am a voracious consumer of side content anyway.

That again is why I suggested that they extend the period between the two missions. Also it should be noted by compilation canon, each of the 7 (6 being non existent) sectors is increasingly wealthier. Avalanche attacked Sector 1, but escaped through Sector 8's trains station, likely because being the poorest and least important district, it would have less security. Their next choice was sector 5 (Why, who knows!?), so security would be tighter, even if there wasn't already a bombing that put ShinRa's police on high alert.

A more natural way to go about this would be to have missions over the course of a week, and then have something go wrong that forces them to consider an alternate route, choosing Sector 5 rather than going back up to the Sector 8 station again. Perhaps a double agent they think is on their side makes the suggestion to go after 5. It has the added bonus of explaining why Avalanche was so easily apprehended in the Sector 5 reactor. Not to mention being seen above the plate so many more times would be enough to trigger suspicion about Avalanche, and setting off the alarms when the IDs fail to match up.

FFVII relies on a lot of leaps of logic, but that doesn't mean bridges between those leaps can't be constructed. I don't however, expect the entirety of Midgar to be open, because frankly it's a waste of time for the developers. The whole concept of Midgar is it's homgenous. People only want to explore the rest because it's off limits, but from the opening FMV, we can see that aside form Sector 8's loveless plaza, there's absolutely nothing to distinguish one part from the other. They came up with Midgar as a concept, not a functional city.

If they can't even keep Lucis from looking like a studio backlot in XV, I don't have much hope for a Midgar that can live up to fan expectations, especially when fans have trouble even expressing what they hope to see. I call that "Magic Hat Syndrome" Fans like concepts, but they never think of the logistics if the idea. They just expect developers to pull it magically out of thin air. Better to avoid those failed expectations all together.

Stick to Sectors 8-5, and leave it at that.

 

[Unit-01]

So (without re-working the entire story ground-up) the free-roam would happen after the first mission? And then be taken away? Doesn't seem like the best idea flow-wise, but I am a voracious consumer of side content anyway.

They had no problem doing that with FFXV. Giving you free-roam, but once you engaged in the story mission you were cut off until you completely it. And eventually all together.

Why is the flow be "suddenly interrupted" for the 7 remake, but not XV?

There are several points were, even though Cloud has a main objective the option as a player is go off an explore the little bit there was in the original. They would be just expanding that. Doesn't say much for the upper plate tho. In CC is made sense to explore the upper plate because you were Zack, but in that context I do find myself being shaking as to were side content could fit regarding the Remake.

I'm sure Aeris is perfectly safe at Shinra HQ. It's not like Sector 7 spoiled the mood or added any urgency o wait

The urgency is still there to the player if they don't want to bother with the optional stuff. Even if they want to do the optional content, it exists as to not impact the main story.

Again, Square did this with XV. Why is it suddenly a problem when the same execution balancing side and story content comes to the Remake?

There's also leaving Midgar, then turning right back around for side quests (maybe after the Kalm flashback?) That gives you Aeris and Red XIII, and a vague "search for Sephiroth" main quest that really isn't that urgent until the Temple of the Ancients.

I wouldn't be against having the sector 5 keycard found earlier on, than in the original. Being near end of disc 2 in the bone village.

 

[Clement Rage]

I feel like a lot of that could be achieved by making sector 7 bigger, rather than opening up the plate. There seems to be a prevailing view in gaming these days that open world is always better, which I'm not really behind. Sometimes a small setting works.

 

[ChipNoir]

I feel like a lot of that could be achieved by making sector 7 bigger, rather than opening up the plate. There seems to be a prevailing view in gaming these days that open world is always better, which I'm not really behind. Sometimes a small setting works.

Of course. The reason Midgar is so memorable is because they made each individual part of it feel unique and fun to explore. By focusing on these very few select parts, they could afford the time to give them all that loving care and detail.

A bigger Midgar is probably going to ruin that a little, ironically. People want the exact thing that they really don't. That's "Magic Hat" syndrome for you.

 

[Ite]

That... makes a lot of sense.

 

[Lulcielid]

Of course. The reason Midgar is so memorable is because they made each individual part of it feel unique and fun to explore. By focusing on these very few select parts, they could afford the time to give them all that loving care and detail.

A bigger Midgar is probably going to ruin that a little, ironically. People want the exact thing that they really don't. That's "Magic Hat" syndrome for you.

For me the reason why Midgar is "memorable" is merely by its aesthetic and for the cock teasing the games makes by mentioning the other plates and for cock blocking me by making only one part of it explorable. Making Midgar bigger would just simply allow me to see more from what they teased and nothing would be diminished.

 

[ChipNoir]

Of course. The reason Midgar is so memorable is because they made each individual part of it feel unique and fun to explore. By focusing on these very few select parts, they could afford the time to give them all that loving care and detail.

A bigger Midgar is probably going to ruin that a little, ironically. People want the exact thing that they really don't. That's "Magic Hat" syndrome for you.

For me the reason why Midgar is "memorable" is merely by its aesthetic and for the cock teasing the games makes by mentioning the other plates and for cock blocking me by making only one part of it explorable. Making Midgar bigger would just simply allow me to see more from what they teased and nothing would be diminished.

Assuming there was anything to see. If you'll recall the FMVs of the original, Midgar's sectors all looked identical; They probably had few if any ideas for Midgar beyond the story points.

The reason all of the X-2s and XIII-2s and such suck is because a lot of these ideas are forced out of nowhere, grasping for threads in a finished product.

Midgar has potential, but an entire 7-town sized number areas, on a modern scale, and doubled for slums? That is a hell of a lot of work to do. That needs original ideas, and functionality. Let's remember how disappointing Lucis was, when we finally got there and it basically looked like a studio backlot. Do we want Midgar the same, because they couldn't think of interesting ways to make seven entirely new towns? All of which, by the way, would still ultimately have nothing to do with the progress of the game?

I'm really against GTA Midgar. I had a lot of problems with XII's massive sprawling, but ultimately samey dungeons and I may run into the same complaints for XV. I don't want this again in FFVII.

 

[ForceStealer]

XIII-2 told it's story much better than XIII did, so that might not be the best example.

 

[ChipNoir]

XIII-2 told it's story much better than XIII did, so that might not be the best example.

Yeagh. No way. No way in hell is it better than XIII. It can be just as bad in a different way, but its still full of contrived crap that barely justifies it's own existence.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

XIII-2 told it's story much better than XIII did, so that might not be the best example.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Why would you say so?

 

[Tashasaurous]

XIII-2 told it's story much better than XIII did, so that might not be the best example.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Why would you say so?

Yeah, anything is better than the XIII trilogy, personally. I think the main reason why X-2 was off-putting because it was released exactly two years since it's prequel was released, so they didin't really pay too much attention on how the story would go.

Plus, X-2 was the first Final Fantasy sequel ever made.

 

[ChipNoir]

XIII-2 told it's story much better than XIII did, so that might not be the best example.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Why would you say so?

Yeah, anything is better than the XIII trilogy, personally. I think the main reason why X-2 was off-putting because it was released exactly two years since it's prequel was released, so they didin't really pay too much attention on how the story would go.

Plus, X-2 was the first Final Fantasy sequel ever made.

I love X-2, but I'm not going to deny that 75% of it is fluff, and the remaining 25% is contrived drama that just doesn't live up to the magnitude of the original.

And that's pretty much what I'd expect of an expanded 14 part Midgar: So much fluff and pointless wandering around. Its not a good idea.

 

[Ite]

Except... I would just wander around. I mean I get what you're saying, that it would be a hassle to design and fans would find it boring... but I wouldn't even need content. I would just wander around. I actually loved FFXII *because* their locations were so sprawling and maze like. It was meditative. I used to run back and forth along the Junon Airport Path in Disc 3 because well I just liked looking at Junon, moving Cloud around and listening to the music. More city rendered means longer walks.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

My only comment on the idea is that, if they did it, they'd just need to make darn sure everything else was up to snuff. The idea on its own is neither good nor bad -- that could only be determined by the quality put into it, and whether that caused/was perceived to contribute to a lapse in quality elsewhere.

 

[hian]

If the remake starts before the iconic bombing mission, then there's plenty of room for additional exploration. If the game starts different, say shortly after Cloud is discovered by Tifa, with stuff like Cloud modding the buster sword, joining avalanche (after some begrudging back and forth with them) and perhaps some build-up preparation mission leading up to the reactor, you could push in various things.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen, nor that it would be a good writing, but it could happen.

If the reveal trailer is in any way indicative of anything at all, with the scene of Avalanche soldiers infiltrating Midgar, maybe there's a huge rewrite waiting in regards to the structure of avalanche, the context of the bombing mission etc.

 

[ChipNoir]

If the remake starts before the iconic bombing mission, then there's plenty of room for additional exploration. If the game starts different, say shortly after Cloud is discovered by Tifa, with stuff like Cloud modding the buster sword, joining avalanche (after some begrudging back and forth with them) and perhaps some build-up preparation mission leading up to the reactor, you could push in various things.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen, nor that it would be a good writing, but it could happen.

If the reveal trailer is in any way indicative of anything at all, with the scene of Avalanche soldiers infiltrating Midgar, maybe there's a huge rewrite waiting in regards to the structure of avalanche, the context of the bombing mission etc.

The teaser trailer predates production, IIRC. I have to track it down, but from what I recall from early interviews, the teaser trailer was a proof of concept trailer that Kitase produced in secret with a small private team, as a means to finally push the board to green light the remake. Hence Nomura's comments that he didn't even know he was Kitase's pick for the director until the thing went into production.

Nomura's also commented that he's going to 'try' to get some of that material into the game. But it's kinda clear that nothing in the teaser matches up with the aesthetics of the PSX gameplay trailer, and I don't think we can take the Avalanche members as anything but the same as the other misleading parts, like the Not-Quite-Sector-5-Park that has obvious differences, or the daylight cityscape that is at complete odds with any of the aesthetics of the rest of Midgar.

 

[hian]

The teaser trailer predates production, IIRC. I have to track it down, but from what I recall from early interviews, the teaser trailer was a proof of concept trailer that Kitase produced in secret with a small private team, as a means to finally push the board to green light the remake. Hence Nomura's comments that he didn't even know he was Kitase's pick for the director until the thing went into production.

This is, as far as I know, incorrect.

Not only is the remake confirmed to have been in production since before the reveal of the FFVII PS4 port a year prior to the reveal trailer being released (http://www.siliconera.com/2015/06/1...nt-before-final-fantasy-vii-port-says-nomura/) -
The reveal trailer was definitely not produced in secret by a small team - it was produced by Visual Works, SE's major CGI department, using the new models that were designed by Nomura himself.

The reveal trailer literally cannot be the same as the internal company presentation video where Nomura was revealed to be the game's director. Unless you think they made that trailer even before the FFVII PS4 port, and that Nomura made the designs for both of those updated models without knowing what they'd be for and what role he'd play in the production.

I think you're confusing things based on Nomura's comment about not being entirely satisfied with the direction of the trailer.

Nomura's also commented that he's going to 'try' to get some of that material into the game. But it's kinda clear that nothing in the teaser matches up with the aesthetics of the PSX gameplay trailer,

Are we looking at the same trailer? I would think it's blatantly obvious, for instance, the models we see of Cloud and Barret are the exact same in both trailers. The same most likely applies to the HD render of Midgar as well. You're not going to make costly 3D assets like that and only use them in a single trailer, and based on the Midgar build used in Mobius, which is stated to be directly ripped from the remake, I'd say we're looking at the same resources in general.

and I don't think we can take the Avalanche members as anything but the same as the other misleading parts, like the Not-Quite-Sector-5-Park that has obvious differences, or the daylight cityscape that is at complete odds with any of the aesthetics of the rest of Midgar.

I think you misunderstood my point. Of course the Visual Works trailer is not going to be used wholesale in the game, nor was I making that argument.
I'm saying that, as laden as that trailer is with messaging, and as carefully tailored as it is - the fact that they went out of the way to show us those Avalanche soldiers could very well be a sign that we should expect to see changes to the presentation of avalanche this time around.

As for whether the daylight cityscape is "complete odds with any of the aesthetics of the rest of Midgar", I don't buy for a second. Not only can you not boil aesthetics down to a period of day - given that we haven't seen much of day-time Midgar, not even that much of Midgar above plate-level in general, I don't think you're equipped to make that judgement to any level of accuracy.

My point still remains though - There are plenty of ways to rewrite the intro scenario to fit more game-play or chances for exploring Midgar, and it would not be far-fetched to expect this given what they're teasing (in a carefully crafted and scripted reveal trailer and in interviews).

 

[ChipNoir]

I'm sorry but aesthetically nothing in the timestamp between 00:19 and 00:31 of the teaser matches up with the now familiar Sector 5(Possibly) view in the same trailer as 00:51. I'm very equipped to make that call because we also have the key-art to show us the scale of the city from other angles. Directly down-screen of the camera in the 51 view, is the reactor borders.

By that logic, Midgar is now no longer intended to be so chaotically built but instead mirrors the original more keenly. There's no place based on the presented scale for that elevated highway to exist, even if you were to suggest it's hidden somewhere around sector 1 through 6. My best guess is those scenes are misleads, much like the previously non-existent park that so keenly resembles the Sector 5 park. Neither do the aesthetics of what appears to be the reactor's landscape match up with anything we've seen in the trailer, or Mobius. There are not a ton of catwalk stairs going up terraced configurations. Everything is basically ground level in Mobius, with the reactors unavoidably visible amongst everything else. It feels familiar, but its still all conceptual rather than something viable.

The bottom line is there is clearly material in the teaser that was meant only for the teaser, and obvious has no place in the final product. It's no more accurate than the Final Fantasy XIII teaser that played up the defunct gravity-bomb ability.

I will however, concede my error about the teaser being a private push. I know I've heard this assertion though, and I'll continue turning the internet upsidedown till I out where that claim comes from.

 

[hian]

I'm sorry but aesthetically nothing in the timestamp between 00:19 and 00:31 of the teaser matches up with the now familiar Sector 5(Possibly) view in the same trailer as 00:51. I'm very equipped to make that call because we also have the key-art to show us the scale of the city from other angles. Directly down-screen of the camera in the 51 view, is the reactor borders. .

I'm having trouble to parse what you're saying here. I'm not entirely sure we know where the scenes from the teaser trailer are supposed to be from, except the early shots likely being from above the plate, and given how little we've seen of Midgar really, I don't think we can determine anything based on that footage alone.

Looking at the scope of the picture below, especially the lower left part, you can see two skyscrapers similar to the ones featured in the teaser trailer during the day-light shot, and you could easily have more of those in any one of the upper-plate sectors we've yet to be made acquainted with, and have the elevated roadways be obscured between the buildings due to the fact that generally, the footage we see if Midgar is always zoomed way too far out to make out the details.

Also, elevated roadways have always been an iffy thing in FFVII, because we know they must be there for the motorbike chase sequence, and we see it even in prerender as Cloud and Co. use one of them when they leave Midgar - However, that never made sense with the general renders of Midgar in the game, as you never saw anything that suggested a suspended high-way system on the upper plates from the overview shots we were given. Yet, they're supposed to be there.

By that logic, Midgar is now no longer intended to be so chaotically built but instead mirrors the original more keenly. There's no place based on the presented scale for that elevated highway to exist, even if you were to suggest it's hidden somewhere around sector 1 through 6. My best guess is those scenes are misleads, much like the previously non-existent park that so keenly resembles the Sector 5 park. Neither do the aesthetics of what appears to be the reactor's landscape match up with anything we've seen in the trailer, or Mobius. There are not a ton of catwalk stairs going up terraced configurations. Everything is basically ground level in Mobius, with the reactors unavoidably visible amongst everything else. It feels familiar, but its still all conceptual rather than something viable.

I'd also say you're using the term "aesthetic" wrong. What you're talking about here is design of motif, not aesthetic, which refers to the style in which the motif is presented.
Cartoon styles, impressionism, realism etc. are aesthetics. The lay-out of a structure rendered in either of those styles are not.

The aesthetics match up just fine. But It wouldn't matter for the argument in either case, as again, I'm not arguing that anything in that trailer is going to be used wholesale in the game.
In fact, it's a point I'm now reiterating for the second time, which I've consistently argued on this forum for a much longer period than our conversation.

The point again - is that the assets used for this trailer are in all likelihood not assets produced merely for one-time use in that trailer, and secondly given the nature of how trailers like these are directed, that they're meant to clue the audience in on the creative intent of the people who made it.
This should be doubly apparent given that even in the second trailer, scenes from the first trailer were spliced in as well, which is not something you'd do as a director if you held that the material no-longer remained representative of your creative vision.

I'm not saying we're going to be getting the cut-scene with the avalanche soldiers in the game - I'm saying the fact that they went through the trouble of making those models, suggests the models will probably be used in the game in some capacity, which suggests we're getting a more fleshed out avalanche story in the remake.

The amount of resources - work-hours and money - it takes to make one of those models makes it highly unlikely that they'd make it just for that teaser trailer and nothing else.
Consider that the models of Barret and Cloud, which are clearly being used, were also in that trailer.

The bottom line is there is clearly material in the teaser that was meant only for the teaser, and obvious has no place in the final product. It's no more accurate than the Final Fantasy XIII teaser that played up the defunct gravity-bomb ability.

Except hey, most of the assets in that trailer carried through to the game, so that would be a perfect example of what I'm talking about here, not a point detracting from what I'm saying.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I hope that Dio still looks 100% accurate to his incredibly sexy portrait in-game.

X

 

[ForceStealer]

XIII-2 told it's story much better than XIII did, so that might not be the best example.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Why would you say so?

Because XIII-2's story made sense? I spent the whole time knowing what our mission was, why it was our mission, and why Caius was doing the things he was doing (having to watch Yeul die so many deaths and so on).

XIII, meanwhile, I defy anyone to explain to me what is happening in the closing sequence. It runs throughout, but becoming more concentrated on their return to Cocoon and reaches peak "What?" during the cutscenes before and during the final battles.

We may of course take this outside to a XIII/XIII-2 thread