Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Starling]

I can't fathom why they'd dare remove content that's so vital to the OG, when they've stressed how much they want to stay faithful to it. That's just such an unthinkable thing to me I can't imagine why they'd do it. Might as well declare the franchise dead if they do.

 

[55-]

They actually handled this really well in the original game, I think. There's some lil side missions you can do throughout the game

Are there? The only one I can think of between NEW GAME and reaching the Gold Saucer is Fort Condor, and even that can only be done a couple of times. That's about a quarter of the game with just one side mission.

I mean there's Wutai, and saving Vincent. But really I'm not just thinking of stuff THAT big, I'm thinking of little optional things along the way that aren't vital to story, but can yield extra items/scenes. The Honey Bee Inn, Gold Saucer, Turtle's Paradise Posters, Snow. Heck, even the draws with the money between 'em.

 

[55-]

Well I'd like to begin by saying that my "spitballing" comment was a way to anticipate your argument about expensive content. Since you've decided to have the argument anyway, my rebut is this: All 42 pages of this thread are pipe dreams and honestly we'll be goddamned lucky if they even include everything in the original game -- I'm not talking sidequests, I'm talking main quests and character development. This is going to be a half-baked piece of shit of a game and deep down we all know it.

This thread is a safe place where we should be encouraged to dream up all sorts of fun additions to the original FF7 game while imagining shiny graphics and camera control. Why can't we have BOTH 300 hours of solo-Cloud detective missions at the beginning and 300 hours of full-party Midgar exploration on disc 3? WE CAN HAVE BOTH THIS THREAD IS ABOUT DREAMS.

??????? This has absolutely nothing to do with the argument I was making. I am not arguing that it would be too expensive. I am not saying I wouldn't want an open world Midgar. No one on this forum wouldn't want that. I am not at all saying "think realistically."

I am saying is that, from a design standpoint, it is a terrible idea to put 300+ hours of optional content at the beginning of a story based game. It would fuck up the pacing and distract from the story that is going to be desperately trying to be listened to.

Open world Midgar would be dope. I feel you. I love side quests. I love just existing in video game worlds. But it would have to be a separate game. Or DLC. Or new game +.

FFVII isn't Skyrim, it isn't Fallout 3, it's a story heavy RPG attempting to imitate a cinematic experience. It has a very deliberate narrative structure.

Imagine if you watched a remake of a movie and the movie started out with 15 hours of supplementary material. Development of characters you haven't met yet, a world you haven't seen yet, and you won't for another 15 hours.

I know WE have all played the original game, but imagine if you were playing it for the first time with this optional content in place. Would you ever get through the storyline? Or would you play around in Midgar for two weeks and then get burnt out and stop playing?

 

[Ite]

Shrug. I imagine the pacing would be different. In fact, the pace of the story would, at that point, be player controlled. If you role played Cloud as someone who talks to Tifa right away, nothing would be different.

 

[Stryfe]

By now we're discussing a game idea that, at least as it has been presented, is basically just Skyrim with a party system and a FF7 texture mod... XD Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in and of itself, because look at how wildly successful Skyrim was. Even despite the humorous number of bugs, glitches, etc., it was handily considered by most gamers to be the best game of 2011. But maybe Bethesda just got away with that because they have a reputation for it anyway... This whole sandbox trend has been going on for a while, ultimately starting with the original GTA games. It's really hard for most gamers to dislike a game that gives them tons of freedom to do whatever it is they want to do. As far as pacing? Most players could care less, judging from what I've seen. However, in a sandbox game, as Mr. Ite stated, the pacing is entirely player controlled. You can choose to plow through the main story as fast as possible, or focus on doing every single little sidequest and extra along the way, or anything in between.

HOWEVER, I ultimately would have a problem with making the FF7 remake into such a game for the following reasons. I do agree with 55- that FF7 was entirely story/character driven. For a sandbox game to make sense, your character pretty much needs to be a blank slate for you to live through (again, like The Elder Scrolls or Fallout). Cloud is anything BUT a blank slate, and to have 300+ hours of content available so quickly would not only distract from the story (nobody ever stuck solely to the main questline in Skyrim on their first playthrough, please... XD), but it would also require that the developers either sacrifice Cloud's character (which would, at least for me, entirely ruin the game), or give Cloud pre-determined reactions to the various scenarios you encounter (which kills immersion and is practically a death-sentence for a sandbox game).

I think the fundamental issue here is that sandbox games are NOT (and shouldn't be, in my opinion) story driven. If anything, the "main story/quest/etc." is just an excuse to guide you around the major points in the world and maybe show some unique enemies and pretty graphics. But the whole point of a sandbox game is to allow you to live in another world and be yourself (or give your character another personality) and see your/that personality represented in-game in as many ways as possible, as well as how other characters and the game world are impacted by your decisions. I think that attempting to take a game that is ENTIRELY story driven would simply not translate well to this formula, unless Cloud becomes nothing more than a hollow shell for the player to live through. Sandbox games are all about immersion and writing your own story (although you may be guided along by the developers in a few occasions), while Final Fantasy 7 was more about experiencing a carefully developed story written by others. Trying to mix the two ideas would probably result in disaster.

 

[SotP]

I just hope they don`t skip the whole Don Corneo part

 

[SotP]

and the sader the ground atmosphere the better

 

[SotP]

+ please do cool turks, no punk style reno...

 

[Mayo Master]

I think the fundamental issue here is that sandbox games are NOT (and shouldn't be, in my opinion) story driven. If anything, the "main story/quest/etc." is just an excuse to guide you around the major points in the world and maybe show some unique enemies and pretty graphics. But the whole point of a sandbox game is to allow you to live in another world and be yourself (or give your character another personality) and see your/that personality represented in-game in as many ways as possible, as well as how other characters and the game world are impacted by your decisions. I think that attempting to take a game that is ENTIRELY story driven would simply not translate well to this formula, unless Cloud becomes nothing more than a hollow shell for the player to live through. Sandbox games are all about immersion and writing your own story (although you may be guided along by the developers in a few occasions), while Final Fantasy 7 was more about experiencing a carefully developed story written by others. Trying to mix the two ideas would probably result in disaster.

I think the concepts of having an open world structure and having a powerful drive from the story can be mixed, however it is a delicate balance. IMO, Sleeping Dogs is probably the best example of how both can be managed successfully. I believe that one way to achieve this is about
a/ Maintaining the MAIN quest as the primary source of quests (whereas the main quest in Bethesda game represents a small fraction of total quests)
b/ Having points where the main quest branches out in several threads (thus encouraging open-world exploration), and then all threads have to be closed before moving on to the next significant plot point.
c/ In other segments, having parts of the story where you are "forced" to continue along the main quest (eg, once you're in the Shinra building to rescue Aerith, there's no turning back to Midgar free-roam)
d/ Being able to properly manage when to offer "free exploration" and when to drive the story. When the party is after Sephiroth in Disc 1 (before the Temple of the Ancients), free-roaming is compatible with how the story goes. However, Between the Temple of the Ancients and the confrontation at the Northern Crater, it wouldn't make much sense for the party to get side-tracked.
Anyway... easier said than done, though.

 

[Ite]

Well said.

I don't see how that's much different from the 20 hours I spent raising 7 generations of chocobos with Meteor hanging over my head.

 

[Mayo Master]

I don't see how that's much different from the 20 hours I spent raising 7 generations of chocobos with Meteor hanging over my head.

IMO that concept has always been in RPGs, to the point where it has become a caricature of itself. RP Gaming conventions are established so that the best moment to finish all side quests, beat the crap out of all the optional bosses and level-up like crazy is right before the Big Bad is about to unleash doom upon the world.
Personally, I find this "convention" really terrible in terms of pacing, as it isn't possible to convey any sense of urgency in this situation. However, I'm not sure that's ever going to change - it's so rooted as a gaming convention (very much like "do not go straight to the boss fight and explore all side corridors first") that gamers expect it. In the remake, if people can't breed 15 generations of chocobos before going to the Northern Crater where Sephiroth is waiting, there are going to be riots.

If I were the event planner of this game and I wouldn't care about popular demand, I would do the following:
- Once the mako canon from Midgar shoots and dispels the barrier of the Northern Crater, there are 7 days before the fall of Meteor
- Have the player decided how these days are going to be spent (with help of day/night cycles) - including the chapter where the party splits so that each of them find a reason to fight until the end. The idea would be to allow some degree of freedom to the player, but make the fall of Meteor be an actual threat which needs to be addressed quick.
- If the party doesn't move to the Northern Crater before the time is up, then Meteor Falls, the world is destroyed, cue Alternate Bad Ending with a Three-Winged Angel casting Hypernova with Latin Chant of Despair.

... But that's not going to happen. Some may think that's fortunate!

 

[hian]

- I hope they make the remake as if the compilation never existed (no retcons, or weird character personality changes etc.), and that whatever additions they do, if any, to the plot, is consistent with and fit with the self-contained plot of the original

- I hope they tone down the action, so that we aren't served overly long cut-scene after cut-scene with Dragonball/Matrix-esque ridiculously over the top fight and action sequences.

- I hope they add non-intrusive optional side-quests taking place in new and old locations alike, that add to the depth of the characters and the world, without creating inconsistencies with the original narrative.

- I hope they keep the crazy, the weird, and the whimsical elements/style of the original, although I think this is extremely unlikely to happen considering the new art direction.

- Most of all, I wish Nomura and Co would have an moment of quiet revelation and realize that the original art-style is superior in every way to the new one, both in terms of originality and charm, but also in terms of being compatible with the story and characters of the game, scrap everything they've done so far, and instead opt for an artsy, cell-shade like graphical style capable of capturing the original 90's anime look of the game, rather than going with the "everyone looks like Jpop idols" quasi/semi photo-realism that's being going on since the release of AC.

That's basically it.

 

[Starling]

You do realize that cel-shaded chibis would likely lead to a ton of backlash right? I mean it took a couple years for LoZ fans to appreciate Wind Waker's graphics and then they lashed out when Twilight Princess responded to the negative reaction by going the other direction, which is why Skyward Sword ended up reaching a compromise in its graphics. Like it or not, semi-realistic graphics have been established by the compilation and are the way they're going to go with the remake, as seen with the trailer. That doesn't mean there won't be room for fun and such. I find too many people forget that more realistic graphics don't automatically mean boring and dark, nor does it mean the art style has to obey every law of physics that can be recreated by the game engine.

I'm not quite sure if you're referring to the OG or your impression of the compilation when you want the action to be toned down. The action in the OG was fine in regard to length and a few of the non pre-rendered scenes offered player input to some degree or other.

 

[hian]

You do realize that cel-shaded chibis would likely lead to a ton of backlash right?

Firstly, I never said anything about Chibi characters. I was talking about the art-style. Last time I checked, the cast drawings were not of Chibi characters.

As for backlash? Don't care one bit. As I said, I know a remake like that will never be made, not in a million years, but that's exactly why I am pessimistic about this remake to begin with.

It's being made to cater to non-fans of the original - because only catering to those who're mainly interested in a faithful recreation won't cover the production costs of a AAA game in this generation.

I know this, but I also resent it. Art directions shouldn't be dictated by public opinion and production costs, although sadly, that's what happens.

Like it or not, semi-realistic graphics have been established by the compilation and are the way they're going to go with the remake, as seen with the trailer. That doesn't mean there won't be room for fun and such. I find too many people forget that more realistic graphics don't automatically mean boring and dark, nor does it mean the art style has to obey every law of physics that can be recreated by the game engine.

Firstly, if you tone done on your defensiveness you'd notice that my last point was written in full awareness that it would never materialize and was pure fantasy, and as such most of your post, this paragraph included is completely off point and irrelevant.

As for what has been "established" - The FF7 universe has grown forth from the original rather organically. Personally, I don't think the compilation should ever have been made to begin with - it doesn't really add anything of value to the original narrative, and worse, it results in stylistic changes, retcons and logical breaks that SE now suddenly have to account for when remaking the game.

All that being said though - this is a remake of the original. There is no physical law in the universe determining that the remake needs to tie together with the compilation. Just as the compilation decided to start messing around with the original material, the remake can just as well decided to do whatever it wants in relation to the compilation.

The compilation hasn't "established" anything to any more significant degree than the original did before the compilation was made. At the end of the day, the devs are at complete liberty to do whatever they want with the remake.

I'm simply saying - if I could twist reality to my will, then this game would be a cell-shaded anime style game true to the original art, the rest of the world be damned.

I'm not quite sure if you're referring to the OG or your impression of the compilation when you want the action to be toned down. The action in the OG was fine in regard to length and a few of the non pre-rendered scenes offered player input to some degree or other.

No, I was talking about the direction of the action as it has gone since the introduction of the compilation.
I am fine with the action in the original. I think the action in the compilation is contrived, cringe-worthy and ridiculous.

 

[hian]

Also, before I forget -

... and are the way they're going to go with the remake, as seen with the trailer. That doesn't mean there won't be room for fun and such. I find too many people forget that more realistic graphics don't automatically mean boring and dark, nor does it mean the art style has to obey every law of physics that can be recreated by the game engine

There's more to game design than just making what is possible with the game engine. If you think a game with the art-style that has been teased thus far is going to contain squatting contests with gay body-builders in martial art gyms, Nanaki on two legs in a sailor uniform, Rufus showing up to hijack a an air-plane that only fits one or two people, when he has an entire armada of different vehicles at his disposal, or Palmer being randomly hit by a truck during an encounter etc. I think you're being overly hopeful - bordering on naive even.

The stylistic change demands narrative and cinematographic restructuring in order for the entire presentation to not feel extremely jarring and incongruent. There will be changes - they might be really good, or they might be really bad.

My point is simply that if they'd opted for an art-style that was actually true to the original, that concern would never have arisen to begin with.
Nobody asks for things to make sense in the trippy and overly anime-ish world of the original. Things stopped making sense in that world the moment the devs had the game on the drawing board and thought it would make sense to make enemy models like giant robotic revolvers firing rockets, or weird ginger-bread houses turning into killer robots.

FF7 made sense as FF7 mostly because of its strong art-direction. The compilation robbed it of that, which is why non of the compilation products have managed to replicate the charm of the original.
If I could have my way, at least the remake would. It won't though. I am allowed to write out my pipe-dreams though, ain't I?

 

[Tashasaurous]

You do realize that cel-shaded chibis would likely lead to a ton of backlash right?

Firstly, I never said anything about Chibi characters. I was talking about the art-style. Last time I checked, the cast drawings were not of Chibi characters.

As for backlash? Don't care one bit. As I said, I know a remake like that will never be made, not in a million years, but that's exactly why I am pessimistic about this remake to begin with.

It's being made to cater to non-fans of the original - because only catering to those who're mainly interested in a faithful recreation won't cover the production costs of a AAA game in this generation.

I know this, but I also resent it. Art directions shouldn't be dictated by public opinion and production costs, although sadly, that's what happens.

Personally, the original FFVII game was the only game in the FFVII series to have that chibi-gameplay thing happening, because it was the first in FF history to have full 3D render gameplay, as the first six were gameboy like gameplays. You must remember that PS1 was like Nintendo 64 back in the 1990's. The techology wasn't as good as it is now these days.

Like it or not, semi-realistic graphics have been established by the compilation and are the way they're going to go with the remake, as seen with the trailer. That doesn't mean there won't be room for fun and such. I find too many people forget that more realistic graphics don't automatically mean boring and dark, nor does it mean the art style has to obey every law of physics that can be recreated by the game engine.

Firstly, if you tone done on your defensiveness you'd notice that my last point was written in full awareness that it would never materialize and was pure fantasy, and as such most of your post, this paragraph included is completely off point and irrelevant.

As for what has been "established" - The FF7 universe has grown forth from the original rather organically. Personally, I don't think the compilation should ever have been made to begin with - it doesn't really add anything of value to the original narrative, and worse, it results in stylistic changes, retcons and logical breaks that SE now suddenly have to account for when remaking the game.

All that being said though - this is a remake of the original. There is no physical law in the universe determining that the remake needs to tie together with the compilation. Just as the compilation decided to start messing around with the original material, the remake can just as well decided to do whatever it wants in relation to the compilation.

The compilation hasn't "established" anything to any more significant degree than the original did before the compilation was made. At the end of the day, the devs are at complete liberty to do whatever they want with the remake.

I'm simply saying - if I could twist reality to my will, then this game would be a cell-shaded anime style game true to the original art, the rest of the world be damned.

The Compilation was created because Kitase or Nomura or whoever of the staff chose FFVII to continue it's universe because they believed it was a perfect oppotunity(sorry for the spelling mistake-I'm terrible at spelling), and that FFVII ended in a cliff-hanger, so they decided to expand that world before the epilogue.

Plus, they're creating a new story content and this game will have much more work-both story-wise and gameplay-wise. And as Starling said, just because the remake will be in full realistic render like the Compilatin titles doesn't mean there won't be any fun, because even Square Enix has a sense of humor. Even art styles has to change eventually.

I'm not quite sure if you're referring to the OG or your impression of the compilation when you want the action to be toned down. The action in the OG was fine in regard to length and a few of the non pre-rendered scenes offered player input to some degree or other.

No, I was talking about the direction of the action as it has gone since the introduction of the compilation.
I am fine with the action in the original. I think the action in the compilation is contrived, cringe-worthy and ridiculous.

I like the Compilation, and I think it's fun and the action it's okay. Besides that, Nomura said that the rendering of AC was from ten years ago, and they're doing the remake of the original from scratch...sort of. Last we heard was that he was busy working on Rufus's father and the one who wrote most of the storylines of all of the FFVII titles is working on the new story-content as I said earlier.

My hope is that the other titles of the Compilation will be mentioned in the remake and I'm hoping that they'll continue the series despite that it'll end in two years time.

 

[hian]

Personally, the original FFVII game was the only game in the FFVII series to have that chibi-gameplay thing happening, because it was the first in FF history to have full 3D render gameplay, as the first six were gameboy like gameplays. You must remember that PS1 was like Nintendo 64 back in the 1990's. The techology wasn't as good as it is now these days.

And again, I wasn't talking about the chibi, I was talking about the art direction. Look at the cast drawing of FF7, now look at the cast drawing of any other FF game. See the difference?

The original cast wasn't drawn as anime characters because of technical limitations - after all, they were drawn on paper. They also were not chibi just as the battle models of the actual game were not.

The Compilation was created because Kitase or Nomura or whoever of the staff chose FFVII to continue it's universe because they believed it was a perfect oppotunity(sorry for the spelling mistake-I'm terrible at spelling), and that FFVII ended in a cliff-hanger, so they decided to expand that world before the epilogue.

Doubt that was the case. Granted the horrible writing of AC, and its blatant goal of existing almost entirely to facilitate an epic high-end battle between Cloud and Sephiroth, I am pretty sure that most of these titles were made to milk the fans of their biggest cash-cow - not out of some artistic concern.

As for cliff-hanger - I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Plus, they're creating a new story content and this game will have much more work-both story-wise and gameplay-wise. And as Starling said, just because the remake will be in full realistic render like the Compilatin titles doesn't mean there won't be any fun, because even Square Enix has a sense of humor. Even art styles has to change eventually.

I am not saying the game won't be fun. I am saying the style of the games narrative and scenes will have to change with the graphics.
I'd rather they keep the fun of the original, that is tried and true, that try their best to make new fun that may or may not work, depending on how well it integrates with the new style of the game.

I like the Compilation, and I think it's fun and the action it's okay. Besides that, Nomura said that the rendering of AC was from ten years ago, and they're doing the remake of the original from scratch...sort of. Last we heard was that he was busy working on Rufus's father and the one who wrote most of the storylines of all of the FFVII titles is working on the new story-content as I said earlier.

Good for you. I don't.
Nomura said he won't be using the technology and the models of AC. However, you'd have to be blind and deaf not to notice the stylistic similarities between AC and the remake.

I think that the biggest creative force in any FF prior to the "merger"(hostile take-over) was Sakaguchi. He didn't write FF7, but he was ultimate decission maker as always. Any idea put forth by Nojima, or anyone else for that matter, would have to pass his desk before making the cut.
For all we know, people like Nojima and Nomura had 9 bad ideas for ever 1 good idea that finally made it somewhere, which would explain why everything they've been given free rein over has been pretty bad compared to the original numbered games up until 10.

That's just my opinion though.

My hope is that the other titles of the Compilation will be mentioned in the remake and I'm hoping that they'll continue the series despite that it'll end in two years time.

For your sake, I hope you're right. I have my opinion you have yours. I don't have the habit of raining on other people's parades. If people want a remake that looks like advent children, plays like a bioware action rpg, and contains all the compilation work, and they get that, then congratulations.
I won't be buying it though.

 

[Theozilla]

There's more to game design than just making what is possible with the game engine. If you think a game with the art-style that has been teased thus far is going to contain squatting contests with gay body-builders in martial art gyms, Nanaki on two legs in a sailor uniform, Rufus showing up to hijack a an air-plane that only fits one or two people, when he has an entire armada of different vehicles at his disposal, or Palmer being randomly hit by a truck during an encounter etc. I think you're being overly hopeful - bordering on naive even.

Didn't Nomura already say not to worry about the crossdressing scene not being in the remake? That it will be included in the game? If that is going to be in the remake I don't see why the other stuff is incapable of being included.

My point is simply that if they'd opted for an art-style that was actually true to the original, that concern would never have arisen to begin with.
Nobody asks for things to make sense in the trippy and overly anime-ish world of the original. Things stopped making sense in that world the moment the devs had the game on the drawing board and thought it would make sense to make enemy models like giant robotic revolvers firing rockets, or weird ginger-bread houses turning into killer robots.

FF7 made sense as FF7 mostly because of its strong art-direction. The compilation robbed it of that, which is why non of the compilation products have managed to replicate the charm of the original.
If I could have my way, at least the remake would. It won't though. I am allowed to write out my pipe-dreams though, ain't I?

But Nomura's art design for characters hasn't changed that much from 1997. It's mostly just smoother in its linework and little better in proportions (just look at his portraits for the FF characters in Dissidia. Dissidia and Crisis Core seemed to translate Nomrua's art style into PSP level 3D animation pretty well I thought.

To use a even more recent example FFXIV (and FFXIII-2) has silly elements like Ultros and Typhon present in it and it uses the standard semi-realistic art style for its characters and world.

 

[hian]

Didn't Nomura already say not to worry about the crossdressing scene not being in the remake? That it will be included in the game? If that is going to be in the remake I don't see why the other stuff is incapable of being included.

Actually he didn't. That's another misquote due to bad translation.
The original quote is an ambiguous Japanese statement asking fans to "look forward to..." with no clear subject, which properly translated would be more accurate to think of as "look forward to whatever we end up doing".

People ran with an affirmative take on this because that's what they wanted to see. However, when Japanese people use a phrase like that to answer a pretty plain question, the opposite is usually true.

Ex.

Will you be bringing that (whatever, Buster sword, or 1 million dollars) to the party?

あれをパーティーに持ってくる？

Please look forward to it

楽しみにしてください

That's not an affirmative in Japanese.

But Nomura's art design for characters hasn't changed that much from 1997. It's mostly just smoother in its linework and little better in proportions (just look at his portraits for the FF characters in Dissidia. Dissidia and Crisis Core seemed to translate Nomrua's art style into PSP level 3D animation pretty well I thought.

VS

And I rest my case.

The stylistic difference is enormous.

You're right that his drawing for portraits in the PSP games etc. not having changed that much. My point is that those portraits don't translate into the cut-scenes I.E the style of the games.

What I would like, ideally speaking, is a game where the graphics actually reproduce the art-style - which is why I would like a game that's cell-shaded or something to that effect, instead of one that mimicks the semi-realism of AC and the cut-scenes of games like Crisis Core or Dissidia.

To use a even more recent example FFXIV has silly elements like Ultros and Typhon present in it and it uses the standard semi-realistic art style for its characters and world.

The scale and nature of those are very different from the things that happen in the narrative of FF7 though. You honestly think they're comparable?

 

[Tashasaurous]

And again, I wasn't talking about the chibi, I was talking about the art direction. Look at the cast drawing of FF7, now look at the cast drawing of any other FF game. See the difference?

The original cast wasn't drawn as anime characters because of technical limitations - after all, they were drawn on paper. They also were not chibi just as the battle models of the actual game were not.

Well, I can see where you're coming from. However, you must remember that things are different now compared to back in the 90's. I mean, go back to how Disney first started out their movies-They didn't have any computers back then, because everything was done by hand. Now these days, almost everything is done by computer. Computers help with the drawings done by hand these days.

Everyone's skills changes. You can't expect things that you like to stay the same forever, though I understand how you're feeling, but we do not have the power to tell them to keep things the way we like it. Just pretend that it's the same by looking at the original art or original movies or original games each day.

Doubt that was the case. Granted the horrible writing of AC, and its blatant goal of existing almost entirely to facilitate an epic high-end battle between Cloud and Sephiroth, I am pretty sure that most of these titles were made to milk the fans of their biggest cash-cow - not out of some artistic concern.

As for cliff-hanger - I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Well, take a look at FFX-2 for example. That's one of the reasons why they picked to continue FFVII by creating the Compilation in the first place, and really, AC was supposed to be released first, but BC ended up being released first, but only in Japan.

In the original game, just after the Lifestream destroyed meteor, it blinded everyone and then just showed Aerith, before cutting to the credits and then it skipped to 500 years later, leaving humanity's fate unknown. That's a cliff-hanger, leaving everyone unaware on what happened to Cloud and his friends and everyone else until the Compilation came along to answer those questions 8 years later.

I am not saying the game won't be fun. I am saying the style of the games narrative and scenes will have to change with the graphics.
I'd rather they keep the fun of the original, that is tried and true, that try their best to make new fun that may or may not work, depending on how well it integrates with the new style of the game.

I know what you mean, because I was like that when they remade and rebooted Sailor Moon, but I knew that it would have to change. So, while the new SM is okay, I stick to the original series with the original english voice acting. Or when Ash's eye-style changed in the 14th season of Pokemon and how they changed the voice acting in the 9th season. But again, it was not in my place to tell them to keep things the same.

Plus, this is Square Enix we're talking about.

Good for you. I don't.
Nomura said he won't be using the technology and the models of AC. However, you'd have to be blind and deaf not to notice the stylistic similarities between AC and the remake.

I think that the biggest creative force in any FF prior to the "merger"(hostile take-over) was Sakaguchi. He didn't write FF7, but he was ultimate decission maker as always. Any idea put forth by Nojima, or anyone else for that matter, would have to pass his desk before making the cut.
For all we know, people like Nojima and Nomura had 9 bad ideas for ever 1 good idea that finally made it somewhere, which would explain why everything they've been given free rein over has been pretty bad compared to the original numbered games up until 10.

That's just my opinion though.

Well, AC and the remake trailer do look the same, but it could change during the development, and I already know that they're not using the renders from AC, I was meant to say earlier. So everyone makes mistakes, and there's no doubt that the remake will have a mistake or two. Everything has mistakes, even back before humans could talk.

Nothing is exactly perfect. Plus, it'll take another decade before the remake will come out, I just know.

For your sake, I hope you're right. I have my opinion you have yours. I don't have the habit of raining on other people's parades. If people want a remake that looks like advent children, plays like a bioware action rpg, and contains all the compilation work, and they get that, then congratulations.
I won't be buying it though.

Yeah, well, knowing my luck, it'll probably never happen. But in truth, I don't go judging on people's interests either, because we are all different in our point of views.

And you never know, it might actually be good. Besides, if there's any bad Final Fantasy game so far, it's FFXIII and it's two sequels.

 

[Starling]

You do realize that cel-shaded chibis would likely lead to a ton of backlash right?

Firstly, I never said anything about Chibi characters. I was talking about the art-style. Last time I checked, the cast drawings were not of Chibi characters.

The artwork may not have been but the OG's graphics sure were. In any case, the current graphics aren't all that different from the artwork, save for toning down some of the stylization, which isn't that big a change. It's the kind of stylization that would probably look stiff or unnatural with the textures and game engine they're using, so it's not that surprising they went that route. While I miss the absurd spikiness of Cloud's hair in the OG, I accept that it can't be as spiky in the more realistic portrayals and it doesn't look bad that way either. It could be some aspect of Dissidia's game engine but I found his hair looked kinda weird in there.

As for backlash? Don't care one bit. As I said, I know a remake like that will never be made, not in a million years, but that's exactly why I am pessimistic about this remake to begin with.

It's being made to cater to non-fans of the original - because only catering to those who're mainly interested in a faithful recreation won't cover the production costs of a AAA game in this generation.

I know this, but I also resent it. Art directions shouldn't be dictated by public opinion and production costs, although sadly, that's what happens.

Since you brought up the development team catering to the wider audience, I figured backlash would be a fairly important factor in ensuring the game is successful. And just because they want to introduce the game to new fans doesn't mean they'll ignore existing fans to do so. They specifically structured the remake trailer to address the fans, so they have at least some awareness that they should take fan opinions into account.

Like it or not, semi-realistic graphics have been established by the compilation and are the way they're going to go with the remake, as seen with the trailer. That doesn't mean there won't be room for fun and such. I find too many people forget that more realistic graphics don't automatically mean boring and dark, nor does it mean the art style has to obey every law of physics that can be recreated by the game engine.

Firstly, if you tone done on your defensiveness you'd notice that my last point was written in full awareness that it would never materialize and was pure fantasy, and as such most of your post, this paragraph included is completely off point and irrelevant.

Both your initial and current post come off as rather negative to me, so the end result is a somewhat unpleasant tone in the way I feel you're addressing me. While this thread is for hopes that may not be expected to end up in the game, it's perfectly reasonable to discuss how those ideas could or couldn't work depending on how the issue is approached, especially if the person addressing your hopes is doing it because they disagree with some or all of it. It's to be expected.

As for what has been "established" - The FF7 universe has grown forth from the original rather organically. Personally, I don't think the compilation should ever have been made to begin with - it doesn't really add anything of value to the original narrative, and worse, it results in stylistic changes, retcons and logical breaks that SE now suddenly have to account for when remaking the game.

While you may not see value in the compilation, others do. It's not perfect but it's not just a pile of useless retcons either. There are ways aspects of the compilation can be integrated into the remake, as long as they take the opportunity to discard the parts that contradict what was established in the OG.

All that being said though - this is a remake of the original. There is no physical law in the universe determining that the remake needs to tie together with the compilation. Just as the compilation decided to start messing around with the original material, the remake can just as well decided to do whatever it wants in relation to the compilation.

Exactly. Since the remake is going to at the very least improve the localization and possibly expand on some things present in the OG, change isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The compilation hasn't "established" anything to any more significant degree than the original did before the compilation was made. At the end of the day, the devs are at complete liberty to do whatever they want with the remake.

Well, it's given more reference points for some of the things present in the OG, as well as more content to examine in order to figure out how things work. That can be counted as expanding on existing concepts as establishing new ones relating to it.

I'm simply saying - if I could twist reality to my will, then this game would be a cell-shaded anime style game true to the original art, the rest of the world be damned.

And I pointed out some issues that would occur with that.

I'm not quite sure if you're referring to the OG or your impression of the compilation when you want the action to be toned down. The action in the OG was fine in regard to length and a few of the non pre-rendered scenes offered player input to some degree or other.

No, I was talking about the direction of the action as it has gone since the introduction of the compilation.
I am fine with the action in the original. I think the action in the compilation is contrived, cringe-worthy and ridiculous.

Well, the only thing that comes to mind as possibly ridiculous by your description would be ACC, which was a movie, so it's kinda like a movie-length instance of cutscene power to the max. I doubt the remake will pre-render scenes that weren't in the OG, and I can't really think of any instances where they'd want to cram in a cutscene based fight scene, since Zack's fight with Sephiroth will likely remain offscreen and pretty much everything else will be a proper fight.

Also, before I forget -

... and are the way they're going to go with the remake, as seen with the trailer. That doesn't mean there won't be room for fun and such. I find too many people forget that more realistic graphics don't automatically mean boring and dark, nor does it mean the art style has to obey every law of physics that can be recreated by the game engine

There's more to game design than just making what is possible with the game engine. If you think a game with the art-style that has been teased thus far is going to contain squatting contests with gay body-builders in martial art gyms, Nanaki on two legs in a sailor uniform, Rufus showing up to hijack a an air-plane that only fits one or two people, when he has an entire armada of different vehicles at his disposal, or Palmer being randomly hit by a truck during an encounter etc. I think you're being overly hopeful - bordering on naive even.

The stylistic change demands narrative and cinematographic restructuring in order for the entire presentation to not feel extremely jarring and incongruent. There will be changes - they might be really good, or they might be really bad.

I think people are making too big a deal about the graphics not allowing for the OG's tone and quirks. I can imagine the squatting contest still happening, just like I can imagine the slap-fight, though I hope Tifa can pinch or kick Scarlet this time around. I can still imagine Nanaki trying to walk around on his hind legs in HD and Barret in that sailor suit (probably my favorite). There's no need to let the graphics limit your imagination for those things. If everyone keeps stressing on that, then what kind of message do you think you're giving to game devs? Show that you're interested in that happening despite the change in graphics. Remind everyone else that it's still possible, that it can actually happen. Cynicism isn't going to help with stuff like this, and being optimistic doesn't make you naive.

My point is simply that if they'd opted for an art-style that was actually true to the original, that concern would never have arisen to begin with.
Nobody asks for things to make sense in the trippy and overly anime-ish world of the original. Things stopped making sense in that world the moment the devs had the game on the drawing board and thought it would make sense to make enemy models like giant robotic revolvers firing rockets, or weird ginger-bread houses turning into killer robots.

The compilation's style doesn't actually depart that much from the original. Considering the way SE likes to render FF games, any truer would probably turn out weird like my earlier issue regarding Dissidia, unless they rendered it more like KH. I really wish people would stop letting graphics dictate what tone can or can't be present. Anime-ish stuff can be serious and non-whimsical, just as more realistic stuff can be the opposite.

FF7 made sense as FF7 mostly because of its strong art-direction. The compilation robbed it of that, which is why non of the compilation products have managed to replicate the charm of the original.
If I could have my way, at least the remake would. It won't though. I am allowed to write out my pipe-dreams though, ain't I?

I'd say writing would have more to do with the compilation's issues than the art-direction, though CC had that blandness issue with a lot of the locations and some of the character designs as rendered in-game. I don't think cel-shading and a less realistic art style is the answer. The remake trailer did a pretty good job with Midgar and the slums so they seem to know what they're doing with the locations and atmosphere. While there's danger in expecting too much out of something, I find that being overly negative in your expectations can be just as hurtful, and impedes your ability to simply enjoy the time before we know for sure how it turns out. If you're willing to give it a fair chance, I'm sure it won't be as disappointing as you're expecting it to be.

 

[Theozilla]

Didn't Nomura already say not to worry about the crossdressing scene not being in the remake? That it will be included in the game? If that is going to be in the remake I don't see why the other stuff is incapable of being included.

Actually he didn't. That's another misquote due to bad translation.
The original quote is an ambiguous Japanese statement asking fans to "look forward to..." with no clear subject, which properly translated would be more accurate to think of as "look forward to whatever we end up doing".

People ran with an affirmative take on this because that's what they wanted to see. However, when Japanese people use a phrase like that to answer a pretty plain question, the opposite is usually true.

Ex.

Will you be bringing that (whatever, Buster sword, or 1 million dollars) to the party?

あれをパーティーに持ってくる？

Please look forward to it

楽しみにしてください

That's not an affirmative in Japanese.

Hmm, that's a shame. Still, even if it is not as affirmative as we might as originally thought, it doesn't make it a negative. I personally think that the Wall Market sequence will still be kept in the remake, it is still a pretty important part of the game regardless.

But Nomura's art design for characters hasn't changed that much from 1997. It's mostly just smoother in its linework and little better in proportions (just look at his portraits for the FF characters in Dissidia. Dissidia and Crisis Core seemed to translate Nomrua's art style into PSP level 3D animation pretty well I thought.

VS

And I rest my case.

The stylistic difference is enormous.

You're right that his drawing for portraits in the PSP games etc. not having changed that much. My point is that those portraits don't translate into the cut-scenes I.E the style of the games.

What I would like, ideally speaking, is a game where the graphics actually reproduce the art-style - which is why I would like a game that's cell-shaded or something to that effect, instead of one that mimicks the semi-realism of AC and the cut-scenes of games like Crisis Core or Dissidia.

I was thinking more of a comparison like this:

IMO I'd say that's a pretty good translation of Nomura's artstyle into the game engine render, even when it's using the Advent Children outfit/design.

While a PS4 in-game engine render will obviously be more powerful/hi-def than a PSP render I think it is still possible for it to translate well.

Even then I personally still think the Advent Children film depiction of the characters is still an okay/decent translation of the designs to 3D renders well (particularly if you compare it to Nomura's current 2d art style depictions of Cloud)

To use a even more recent example FFXIV (and FFXIII-2) has silly elements like Ultros and Typhon present in it and it uses the standard semi-realistic art style for its characters and world.

The scale and nature of those are very different from the things that happen in the narrative of FF7 though. You honestly think they're comparable?

Well, yeah. I think they're comparable for the discussion of having a cartoony character design translated into a game with semi-realistic 3D animation style.

If they can take this

And translate it into this

Then I think SE has the capacity to take things that were originally cartoony and translate them well into a semi-realistic graphical style.

 

[hian]

Well, I can see where you're coming from. However, you must remember that things are different now compared to back in the 90's. I mean, go back to how Disney first started out their movies-They didn't have any computers back then, because everything was done by hand. Now these days, almost everything is done by computer. Computers help with the drawings done by hand these days.

Yeah, but there is a difference between technological changes and art changes.

It's perfectly possible to preserve the original art in a high-fidelity graphical design using a cell-shaded graphical solution as seen in games like Catherine.

I am not asking SE to go low-fi with this or anything - I am simply saying I don't enjoy the realistic art style. Realism is not the only art-style that exists out there, and it's not some kind of natural progress within art either.
After all, there are still people out there who stick to impressionism for instance.

Well, take a look at FFX-2 for example. That's one of the reasons why they picked to continue FFVII by creating the Compilation in the first place, and really, AC was supposed to be released first, but BC ended up being released first, but only in Japan.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

How do you think FFX-2 played into the creation of the compilation - as in SE realizing they could bank more on numbered titles by making spin-offs or something to that effect?

In the original game, just after the Lifestream destroyed meteor, it blinded everyone and then just showed Aerith, before cutting to the credits and then it skipped to 500 years later, leaving humanity's fate unknown. That's a cliff-hanger, leaving everyone unaware on what happened to Cloud and his friends and everyone else until the Compilation came along to answer those questions 8 years later.

That's not a cliff-hanger though - that's called an open ending. I'd argue that's what makes the ending of the original so good. We know meteor was stopped and that Sephiroth got defeated. The rest is left up to imagination. I cliff-hanger would be something akin to the game ending before we saw the meteor stopped, or as Cloud faced off against Sephiroth.

I know what you mean, because I was like that when they remade and rebooted Sailor Moon, but I knew that it would have to change. So, while the new SM is okay, I stick to the original series with the original english voice acting. Or when Ash's eye-style changed in the 14th season of Pokemon and how they changed the voice acting in the 9th season. But again, it was not in my place to tell them to keep things the same.

I'm fine with change. All this on my part is simply a fantasy of what I would like to see, essentially if I had creative control of the product.
That being said, an HD fully 3D FF7 in cell-shaded graphics would, by most standards, also be a huge change. I simply want the art-style to be consistent, because I consider it by far to be FF7 strongest point separating it from earlier and later titles.
Without that, stylistically speaking, it's just an FF8/FF10/FF15 playing FF7 dress-up.

The artwork may not have been but the OG's graphics sure were. In any case, the current graphics aren't all that different from the artwork, save for toning down some of the stylization, which isn't that big a change. It's the kind of stylization that would probably look stiff or unnatural with the textures and game engine they're using, so it's not that surprising they went that route. While I miss the absurd spikiness of Cloud's hair in the OG, I accept that it can't be as spiky in the more realistic portrayals and it doesn't look bad that way either. It could be some aspect of Dissidia's game engine but I found his hair looked kinda weird in there.

Are we looking at the same footage? The artwork of the original and the actual graphical presentation of people in the trailer are, I repeat, completely different.

Comparing the two is like comparing the art-direction of Gears of War with Trigun, Dragonball, or Ah My Godess.

What you're referring to is, I get the impression of, is the presentation - the set-pieces. Yeah, Cloud is wearing his standard outfit, yes Midgard (at least the night-time shots) is true to the original. That's not the substance of the style though - that's the actual image.
A realist and a naturalist can paint the exact same landscape and it will look different stylistically speaking even if the set-piece, the image, is the same.

As for the engine and textures - That's just wrong from a development stand-point. Have you played, or seen, any of the lastest Naruto games released the last few years? There is absolutely no reason what so ever why SE couldn't make a extremely high-fidelity, smoothly animated Cell-shaded version of FF7 for PS4. Non what so ever - They didn't opt out of such a style because of tehnical concerns, that I can tell you for certain.
They most likely didn't consider it at all to begin with, because FF7's style evolved with the release of the compilation, and now it is what it is. I'm just saying I don't like it.

Since you brought up the development team catering to the wider audience, I figured backlash would be a fairly important factor in ensuring the game is successful. And just because they want to introduce the game to new fans doesn't mean they'll ignore existing fans to do so. They specifically structured the remake trailer to address the fans, so they have at least some awareness that they should take fan opinions into account..

Yeah, but that's irrelevant because I was not making an argument about what I would do if I wanted to make the game successful - but what they would have to do in order to truly please me as fan.
There is a big difference. I recognize that I won't get my way ever. I wasn't saying I should or that it would be clever of them to do so - simply that it's the way, in my perfect world, that it would end up being.

As for ignoring their old fans - I am not saying they will entirely - however, if this game is going to cost anywhere close to the same as other western AAA titles, they're also going to have to sell as much.
The original crowd alone does not cover that large of a population, meaning that whenever they hit a design snag in the development, where a fan-base preference butts heads with general consumer preferences, the original fan-base will lose out.

Add that to the fact that the "original" fan-base is divided as well, between original purists like myself, and those who came in with the compilation who has much less of a relationship with original material, there really isn't all that much incentive left for the producers to think too much about keeping it true to the original except in the most basic of ways in order to keep it recognizable.

Both your initial and current post come off as rather negative to me, so the end result is a somewhat unpleasant tone in the way I feel you're addressing me. While this thread is for hopes that may not be expected to end up in the game, it's perfectly reasonable to discuss how those ideas could or couldn't work depending on how the issue is approached, especially if the person addressing your hopes is doing it because they disagree with some or all of it. It's to be expected..

Well it is - because I don't like the compilation.
The thing though, is that I pretty clearly made a point of the fact that most of my preferences are not likely to see the day of light, nor that I expect them to. I reserve the right to dislike the compilation and the direction of the remake, and you're free to disagree.
However, I did not make those statements to have an argument about whether they would work or not, which I think I made pretty clear as I have acknowledged over and over again that I don't think they would - which is why I don't understand why you'd bother to attempt to make it into an argument.

I am not arguing that SE should make the game closer to the original style because I think that would be better for the franchise or for profits, or necessarily for some objective standard of what makes a game good - I simply said that's what I would want it to look like to really feel at home with it. There literally is nothing to argue about in such a statement.

While there's danger in expecting too much out of something, I find that being overly negative in your expectations can be just as hurtful, and impedes your ability to simply enjoy the time before we know for sure how it turns out. If you're willing to give it a fair chance, I'm sure it won't be as disappointing as you're expecting it to be.

I find the opposite to be true. Be a pessimist about something up front, and you'll never get disappointed, and the thing you engage with will almost certainly exceed expectations and as an extension feel satisfying in direct relation to how much better it is than you expected.

Go in with hopes and dreams, tiny or huge notwithstanding, and when the product inevitably doesn't deliver to that standard, you're left with a sense of disappointment that makes some serious damage to your perception of the product for a very long time.

That's what happened with FF8 for me. FF7 and pre-release hype completely skewed my expectations of it. Got it, was disappointed. Hated on it for 2 years, before I replayed it and finally got to like it for what it is.

I'm not going to submit my experience of the remake with that, especially granted SE's history with the franchise the last decade or so. I'll go into this in a state of minus on my expectation meter, and I'll let the game convince me otherwise. Nothing else matters.

I didn't respond to the rest of your post, because it's pretty much repetition of things I've already disagreed with or covered.

To make a short reply to the common sentiment - I think the blandness you see in AC is a direct result of the new art-direction. It was a conscious choice to pick a color-palette that fits with the more realistic look of the world and the characters, and it was a conscious choice to center the plot and action around locations from the game that would work with the original style, rather than places like Cosmo Canyon or Gold Saucer that both are pretty whimsical and have physically impossible/super impractical architecture in them.

You say you can envision the quirky scenes of the original in the remake with the style from the teaser and I believe you - I can too - That's not my problem. I am simply saying it's not likely to happen, because it will look jarring and weird with the new style.
This is a game we're talking about here - of course they can realize any scene they want.
The reason I make this argument is because the compilation games and AC has not contained scenes, enemy models, and characters like in the original. NPCs, or in the case of AC, background characters have been toned down to fit the more somber design, gone are any sign of the locations with oddly shaped and disproportionate buildings among other things.

Artists worry about making their work look consistent and thematically wholesome. That's why the compilation in general has less quirks than the original, because while the quirks could be made, they would look out of place to most people given the overall new tone of those products.
Since the remake seems to be going to realistic route, it's not unreasonable to think that they might cut away content that meshes poorly with the new art-style - again, not because it cannot be done - but because they'll probably think of 100s of things that might work better.

And while those new things might be good in their own right - I think the removal of the trippy and vibrantly silly things in FF7 is to take away a large part of what made FF7 so special to begin with.
Remove it, and you're left with a pretty standard, and melodramatic piece of art with very little left to single it out from other titles, especially with FF15 on the horizon.

Hmm, that's a shame. Still, even if it is not as affirmative as we might as originally thought, it doesn't make it a negative. I personally think that the Wall Market sequence will still be kept in the remake, it is still a pretty important part of the game regardless.

I hope this is the case. Unfortunately, there are some good reasons to believe that the entirety of the game will be fundamentally differently structured for the original, in a way that allows the team to pick and chose which scenes to include and which to not for the sake of streamlining the development process, and save time and resources.
If that's the case, a lot of the stuff from the original that isn't directly pertinent to telling the gist of the story might be cut out - the entire Wall Market sequence being one of them.

If you're interested in knowing why I say this, then send me a PM. I am not at liberty to cover that here.

IMO I'd say that's a pretty good translation of Nomura's artstyle into the game engine render, even when it's using the Advent Children outfit/design.

Dissidia is not so bad - I agree. I think Kingdom Hearts 1 is even better, if you disregard the costume.
Personally, I always wanted the remake to be on PS2, following stylistically speaking, in the vein of the Kingdom Hearts conceptions of the characters.
However, I don't think that's how this is going to look. Looking at Cloud's backside in the trailer, this will definitely look more like AC - or for even a better idea, look at Cloud in the new Dissidia.

Well, yeah. I think they're comparable for the discussion of having a cartoony character design translated into a game with semi-realistic 3D animation style.

I think they're a relatively poor example because they're organic monsters that are pretty simply to make into a semi-realistic style because the base design doesn't look all that silly or cartoony to begin with. They didn't loose anything by the transformation, nor do they jarr with the style of the game they are now featured in.
Similarly, I don't think SE will have any problem putting most of the monsters in FF7 into the remake in a way that makes sense.

However, compare that to what we've seen so far in the teaser, and imagine Hojo on a beach-chair, in his lab-coat, surrounded by babes in bikinis in those graphics, and tell me that is going to feel congruent with the soldiers/Avalanche members, whatever, running up the stairs in the beginning of the teaser artistically speaking.

I am not saying it can't be done - I am saying, do you think it's realistic to assume that's going to happen? Especially considering the absolute absence of nonsense like that in the other compilation products after the shift in art-direction?

Nomura has decided to go "realistic" with this - and I think that signifies a more realistic plot and cinematography as well. If they had decided to go "Catherine" with it instead, I think they'd leave it all in.
That's my theory. It's all conjecture of course - but I don't think its that far-fetched.

At the end of the day we won't know until the next proper press-release. Let's wait and see.

 

[Theozilla]

Dissidia is not so bad - I agree. I think Kingdom Hearts 1 is even better, if you disregard the costume.
Personally, I always wanted the remake to be on PS2, following stylistically speaking, in the vein of the Kingdom Hearts conceptions of the characters.
However, I don't think that's how this is going to look. Looking at Cloud's backside in the trailer, this will definitely look more like AC - or for even a better idea, look at Cloud in the new Dissidia.

Thanks for the reminder of the arcade/PS4 Dissidia look. I actually think this is a great example of translating Nomura's 2d/more cartoony depiction of Cloud into the more semi-realistic standard visual style SE uses now.

I think they're a relatively poor example because they're organic monsters that are pretty simply to make into a semi-realistic style because the base design doesn't look all that silly or cartoony to begin with. They didn't loose anything by the transformation, nor do they jarr with the style of the game they are now featured in.
Similarly, I don't think SE will have any problem putting most of the monsters in FF7 into the remake in a way that makes sense.

While I'll concede that Typhon's original base design wasn't that silly/cartoony, I really disagree with the view that Ultros' base design wasn't/isn't silly/cartoony. I don't how one would describe Ultros other than a cartoony toothy purple octopus.

However, compare that to what we've seen so far in the teaser, and imagine Hojo on a beach-chair, in his lab-coat, surrounded by babes in bikinis in those graphics, and tell me that is going to feel congruent with the soldiers/Avalanche members, whatever, running up the stairs in the beginning of the teaser artistically speaking.

I am not saying it can't be done - I am saying, do you think it's realistic to assume that's going to happen? Especially considering the absolute absence of nonsense like that in the other compilation products after the shift in art-direction?

Nomura has decided to go "realistic" with this - and I think that signifies a more realistic plot and cinematography as well. If they had decided to go "Catherine" with it instead, I think they'd leave it all in.
That's my theory. It's all conjecture of course - but I don't think its that far-fetched.

At the end of the day we won't know until the next proper press-release. Let's wait and see.

I don't think it is that unrealistic to expect the sillier elements to still be present in the game. I mean even Dirge of Cerebus had a section of the game where you could play as Cait Sith.
Like even if the interview with the cross dressing scene "confirmation" was/is actually more ambiguous than we original thought. In other interviews like this Engadget one does have Nomura explicitly saying he doesn't want to change the comedic and lighthearted moments that much.

I also just remembered a post Shademp made a few years ago on how stuff like the Honey Bee Inn could be presented in a FFVII remake and he used a pretty good example of a game with a semi-realistic graphic style utilizing quirky comedy pretty well.

I've been wanting to say this for a long time, but I definitely think that a remake of the Honey Bee Inn should take some inspiration from Lee's ending in Tekken 5...

It hurts my eyes, but it's supposed to! Listen to that "boi-oing" sound at 0:09! The painful sight of both Lee and Heihachi in their, umm, "outfits". Heihachi's erratic, comedic motions in 0:43-0:53... This, my friends, is a taste of the modern version of the Honey Bee Inn.

Granted, you can't fully replicate, in English, the atmosphere created by the Japanese tradition of addressing one another as a superior or a subordinate (it just doesn't have the same feel in English), but it can still work. Like I keep obsessing, they better have odd sound effects for when the Honey Bee girls move, like they have in the original game.

 

[hian]

Thanks for the reminder of the arcade/PS4 Dissidia look. I actually think this is a great example of translating Nomura's 2d/more cartoony depiction of Cloud into the more semi-realistic standard visual style SE uses now.

I don't really like it. Personally I think Cloud's haircut looks completely silly in realistic graphics. I also think the character art is blander in that style.

While I'll concede that Typhon's original base design wasn't that silly/cartoony, I really disagree with the view that Ultros' base design wasn't/isn't silly/cartoony. I don't how one would describe Ultros other than a cartoony toothy purple octopus.

Agreed, I should have separated the two. My main point is that neither of those are really difficult to adapt into realistic styles compared to the scenarios of the narrative. I tried, but apparently failed, to make a distinction between what parts I don't want to change simply because I don't like where it's going (the realistic style), and what I think will change because it simply won't look good for people in general.

As you've pointed out, all the characters and most of the organic monsters etc. are completely adaptable. My point about the character though, was simply that I didn't like the style.

The larger point of my perspective on what is likely to get cut due to incongruence, has to do largely with the narrative, not with characters.

I don't think it is that unrealistic to expect the sillier elements to still be present in the game. I mean even Dirge of Cerebus had a section of the game where you could play as Cait Sith.
Like even if the interview with the cross dressing scene "confirmation" was/is actually more ambiguous than we original thought. In other interviews like this Engadget one does have Nomura explicitly saying he doesn't want to change the comedic and lighthearted moments that much.

That's not really all that silly though. If I remember correctly Cait Sith has not been featured atop the iconic mog of the original character in any of the compilation titles, and while I am sure this has been rationalized post-hoc by the writers, I am pretty sure this is entirely due to the fact that it would look ridiculous with the new style.


You also have to remember that there are many ways to put comedic elements in a game. Nomura wanting lighthearted moments in the remake does not mean that he sees the weirder scenes from the original as being necessary to achieve whatever he means by that statement.

AC had plenty of jokes and banter in it, despite being a generally drab and melodramatic piece of cinema.

As for the Tekken 5 thing (or I'd say Tekken in general) - that's a relevant and rather good point. The Metal Gear Solid series would be another.
As I said, it's all conjecture at this point.

However, granted the overall tone and style of the compilation, it's disconnect with the original, and the tone and style of the trailer I simply think it's more reasonable to assume (not that it's reasonable to assume much to begin with) that this won't be like the original in that corny, LSD trip kinda way - and that makes me really sad, because, as I said, that's what I enjoyed about the game the most.

FF7 to me was sensory overload modern-punk 80's/90's anime on steroids delivered in the abstract RPG format. That's what made it a great game - It's the same thing that makes Battle Arena Toshinden my all-time favorite fighting game, and why David Hasselhoff's True Survivor is one of the most brilliant songs of this decade (of course, IMO).
It's difficult to capture with words, but those who understand this feeling, do.

This is what I see being robbed from the remake. That won't be there, unless the teaser is a lie, and a complete distraction.

I am not opposed to changes - additional story elements, materia, quests, even new characters, or radically revamped battle-system. I can handle all that - I can learn to love that for what it is.
I am just sick and tired of the style of most contemporary games, and indeed media in general.
I long for the completely unashamed, tacky and trippy style of games like FF7 and BAT, but nobody really makes that stuff anymore.
To my mind - removing that from the remake, is removing the one thing that made FF7 distinguish itself as a game to begin with.
Without it isn't really all that different from earlier iterations and other RPGs - especially, as I said, with a game like FF15 on the horizon.