Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Odysseus]

From a writing standpoint, that leaves a lot of these retroactive set-ups for compilation-centric ideas with no payoff once they're subsequently retroactively removed from canon via plot changes. Seems redundant to even bother with a lot of that stuff if they're going to disregard it by design imo.

 

[KindOfBlue]

From a writing standpoint, that leaves a lot of these retroactive set-ups for compilation-centric ideas with no payoff once they're subsequently retroactively removed from canon via plot changes. Seems redundant to even bother with a lot of that stuff if they're going to disregard it by design imo.

That’s exactly why conflating canon with continuity is making this idea such a hard sell lol

The setup for compilation ideas can still exist and be resolved in a different direction in the remake (key words: “different direction”, not be completely removed) without removing AC and DoC from the canon of FF7 or the continuity of the OG because the differences in presentation of events in the remake clearly establish a degree of separation from the OG continuity, even IF the general direction of the narrative stays the same.

I mean, the FF wiki article on Cloud is a pretty straightforward example of what I’m talking about. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Cloud_Strife It outlines Cloud’s story from beginning to end, and then outlines what we’ve seen in the remake. At no point are the previous events completely disregarded, but any changes and additions to the remake don’t alter the past either, it’s just one thing here and another thing right next to it. Books adapted to movies do it all the time, so it’s just not the craziest idea in the world to me.

 

[Odysseus]

I dunno, kanye. The set up really points to the compilation versions of those events, not some alternative version that takes place in the timeframe of the original story. Granted, I share the belief with Mako that in the end the remake will share an interchangeable position in the overall timeline with the original, so I may be biased.

 

[Makoeyes987]

…of this, if we assume that the OG and the remake are the same continuity, why wouldn’t we retroactively consider the Whispers as part of the OG story? That’s the difference between canon and continuity here, “canon” is the lore of the universe that the creators deem relevant and “continuity” is the extent of the consistency in the story portrayed between installments

Well like what @Shademp said earlier, I think the Whispers were created as a failsafe after some unknown event disrupted time for the Planet. Presumably by whatever Sephiroth did that gave him this awareness and ability to time travel.

 

[Shademp]

From a writing standpoint, that leaves a lot of these retroactive set-ups for compilation-centric ideas with no payoff once they're subsequently retroactively removed from canon via plot changes. Seems redundant to even bother with a lot of that stuff if they're going to disregard it by design imo.

But Ever Crisis tho

 

[Makoeyes987]

If what he says were to happen, Ever Crisis would be the Legends canon to the new modern canon timeline built by the Remake.

And that's exactly why I don't see Square or the writers doing something so painfully convoluted and silly. Just like they utilized what exists for Two Pasts, they'd use what they have for the Remake's future. Not... Make a new multiverse for FFVII.

 

[Shademp]

don't see Square or the writers doing something so painfully convoluted and silly.

Dude don't give me all this low-hanging fruit it's not good for my heart

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, Kingdom Hearts, their most convoluted lore story by far, with multiple instances of time travel, has avoided such a dichotomous fate. I think they can manage doing the same for FFVII, lol

I just don't see them doing something like that, it's not that comic book-y or complicated.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm actually thinking Ever crisis exists specifically because square wants people to get the foreshadowing and callbacks lol.

 

[Shademp]

I'm actually thinking Ever crisis exists specifically because square wants people to get the foreshadowing and callbacks lol.

Precisely!

 

[KindOfBlue]

Well like what @Shademp said earlier, I think the Whispers were created as a failsafe after some unknown event disrupted time for the Planet. Presumably by whatever Sephiroth did that gave him this awareness and ability to time travel.

I think so as well, but what I’m getting at is the Whispers and everything happening with them have no bearing on the OG’s story, it’s what keeps changes like Zack surviving from being a true “retcon” because it doesn’t retroactively change what happened in the OG’s continuity. Presumably, anyways.

SE’s been clear on the remake not overwriting the OG, so from their perspective, I don’t think they would consider AC and DoC not occurring in the remake to be some sort of erasure. And we can’t really call it a soft reboot either because of how much of the OG’s canon informs the remake.

If what he says were to happen, Ever Crisis would be the Legends canon to the new modern canon timeline built by the Remake.

And that's exactly why I don't see Square or the writers doing something so painfully convoluted and silly. Just like they utilized what exists for Two Pasts, they'd use what they have for the Remake's future. Not... Make a new multiverse for FFVII.

I mean the comparison to Evangelion’s Rebuild series seems pretty apt here. It’s a retelling of the story but it’s not like it completely overwrites the original either. And besides, it’s not like they’d have to totally scrap all of the post-game info already established and tell a whole new story, just show Cloud living happily ever after with his bike and the family or something and leave it at that.

I wouldn’t call giving remake a new future an example of a multiverse either, at least not one that’s in-universe, unless they REALLY go full comic book stupid and have OG Cloud team up with remake Cloud or something. I can assure you, I don’t believe that’ll be the case here lol.

I'm actually thinking Ever crisis exists specifically because square wants people to get the foreshadowing and callbacks lol.

That I agree with, and I think it would be beneficial to both scenarios being proposed here because either way, it’ll help the new fans appreciate whatever’s being done with the story more

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think so as well, but what I’m getting at is the Whispers and everything happening with them have no bearing on the OG’s story, it’s what keeps changes like Zack surviving from being a true “retcon” because it doesn’t retroactively change what happened in the OG’s continuity. Presumably, anyways.

SE’s been clear on the remake not overwriting the OG, so from their perspective, I don’t think they would consider AC and DoC not occurring in the remake to be some sort of erasure. And we can’t really call it a soft reboot either because of how much of the OG’s canon informs the remake.

Yes, I get that but that's still semantics in the grand scheme of things. It'd be replacing one Cloud with another. One version of FFVII and the Compilation, with another. Like, you'd have Cloud Prime from the OG, and then Cloud-3 from Remake. They're not doing that. This isn't a comic book franchise. They're not trying to make this some multiverse comic book saga with their exploration of time travel and stuff. They've not done that before anywhere, and I don't see them trying that in what they've repeated would be functionally the same story. The closest thing to what you're talking about is Kingdom Hearts, and that's technically not a Final Fantasy. That's an entirely different franchise, hence there being different versions of characters with different backstories, histories and futures.

I mean the comparison to Evangelion’s Rebuild series seems pretty apt here. It’s a retelling of the story but it’s not like it completely overwrites the original either. And besides, it’s not like they’d have to totally scrap all of the post-game info already established and tell a whole new story, just show Cloud living happily ever after with his bike and the family or something and leave it at that.

I don't think this is exactly Rebuild either.

Similar in terms of style and thematics maybe but no, that's not how I see it ultimately working out, so I wouldn't want it do that.

I wouldn’t call giving remake a new future an example of a multiverse either, at least not one that’s in-universe, unless they REALLY go full comic book stupid and have OG Cloud team up with remake Cloud or something. I can assure you, I don’t believe that’ll be the case here lol.

But it most certainly is by what you just described. By most definitions in pop culture, that'd be the same thing that's done in most western comics. There would be the Remake versions of everybody and their canon, and then the OG versions. That's immediately what it aligns with. And FFVII is definitely not like that.

That I agree with, and I think it would be beneficial to both scenarios being proposed here because either way, it’ll help the new fans appreciate whatever’s being done with the story more

It'd be "beneficial" if the goal is to continuously stay inside FFVII, forever. Yes, that would be the benefit.

However, that clearly isn't what is going to happen given that they have multiple projects, franchises and ambitions outside of this work. And they operate in a creative style that wastes no opportunities with superfluous repeated engagements. If they did what you proposed, that means they would have to do it all the way. Why make a new future if it won't be explored? If they're not going to be making a new "Compilation of FFVII-R," there's zero reason to not just simply connect this final story to the Compilation they've stated it already belongs to. Toriyama, Kitase and Nomura have repeated that this is the "final entry of the Compilation." Not the "beginning" of a "new Compilation." So what would be the point in remaking a new "future" for FFVII? The future technically already exists.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Like, you'd have Cloud Prime from the OG, and then Cloud-3 from Remake. They're not doing that.

I thought we were all in agreement that this is precisely what they're doing? Nomura said before the game even came out that the original and the remake are separate universes, and half of our discussions about Remake here have been about Aerith of Universe-B(eagle) , Zack of Universe-T(errier), and Sephiroth of Universe-Prime (the original game+Compilation).

Anyway, as I've been saying since last April, I really don't see this thing ending in any way that doesn't lend itself to Square being able to reissue AC(C) for the 12th time on 16K Ultra HD Holodisc or some shit with marketing like "See the hit sequel to the most groundbreaking gaming adventure series of the past decade (because they've been coming out now for a decade) -- FFVII Remoded!"

I fully expect the remake series to end in a way that would perfectly set up/allow for the events of AC and DC while Sephiroth-Prime meets his ultimate end in the Remake series either prior to the Remake timeline's AC and DC -- or in the far future, long after those events have come and gone.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I thought we were all in agreement that this is precisely what they're doing? Nomura said before the game even came out that the original and the remake are separate universes, and half of our discussions about Remake here have been about Aerith of Universe-B(eagle) , Zack of Universe-T(errier), and Sephiroth of Universe-Prime (the original game+Compilation).

Anyway, as I've been saying since last April, I really don't see this thing ending in any way that doesn't lend itself to Square being able to reissue AC(C) for the 12th time on 16K Ultra HD Holodisc or some shit with marketing like "See the hit sequel to the most groundbreaking gaming adventure series of the past decade (because they've been coming out now for a decade) -- FFVII Remoded!"

I fully expect the remake series to end in a way that would perfectly set up/allow for the events of AC and DC while Sephiroth-Prime meets his ultimate end in the Remake series either prior to the Remake timeline's AC and DC -- or in the far future, long after those events have come and gone.

Yes, I agree they're separate universes because of the nature of the time travel that's apparently happened, which has constructed this new Remake version of FFVII. However, it's still "Cloud" who will ultimately have the same progression as he had in FFVII barring a few variances. And from there, those events post FFVII Remake will functionally progress the same as how they did before for the OG.

It's like the example I used before. I don't think Square Enix is is going for a Superman Earth 2 and Superman Earth 1 situation with FFVII. Cloud is Cloud in Final Fantasy. There doesn't need to be this delineation where Cloud 2 from the OG goes through a Compilation canon that's separate from Cloud 1 of the Remake and etc etc

That's all I meant. There's already a second Cloud that exists in Kingdom Hearts. I doubt they wanna divide him up again. I agree with you regarding the future, they want to be able to keep this continuity relevant so they can reissue and recontextualize their previous work to keep it current and memorable to what they're all doing. It's going to loop itself together as a way of punctuating their work with the beginning of FFVII.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But what you just described is exactly like a Superman of Earth-1 and Superman of Earth-2 situation.

These Clouds live in separate universes. They even have some different experiences here and there. They're separate Clouds.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But what you just described is exactly like a Superman of Earth-1 and Superman of Earth-2 situation.

These Clouds live in separate universes. They even have some different experiences here and there. They're separate Clouds.

But Superman of Earth-1 and Superman of Earth-2 have differing histories past a certain point. That's what I'm talking about.

Like, in the grand scheme of things, they're different people in DC. Yes, you're right by the nature of the Remake these Clouds who exist in the OG and Remake respectively, have differing circumstances and experiences at times, but it's due to the nature of how time travel works. Not this attempt at having multiverses that will do these two different things with FFVII Clouds going through different canons based on their respective histories. Things can change in the detail level, but I ultimately believe they will reconcile and ultimately be more or less the same since they're still an "FFVII Cloud."

It's like how there are two Sephiroths in the Remake. Yes, one Sephiroth is from a future (presumably a future that has experienced the OG of FFVII and more) but he's in the Remake and now is linked consciousness-wise with the present Remake Sephiroth and now share their overall ambition and intentions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think anyone in the discussion suggested they'll be fundamentally different, though? For the sake of being able to engage in coherent discussion, we need to be able to say "Cloud-Prime may have gotten a wig from a bodybuilder's onesie while Cloud-B got his hair done up by professionals in a glitzy club."

Not everything is drastically different from one universe to the next in a multiverse. A speck of dust blowing one millimeter to the left makes for a different universe.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think anyone in the discussion suggested they'll be fundamentally different, though?

But that's what would happen if there's a different post-Remake Compilation future? It's a fundamental difference of events because you'd have an entirely different future. I mean, the example used of no Geostigma, AC, Sephiroth, etc creates some new future that's a 180 from the one we have.

 

[KindOfBlue]

And this is why we have to stop confusing canon with continuity lol

In western comics, there is an in-universe acknowledgement that multiple canons with their own continuities exist. As far as FF7 goes, everything we know so far about timelines has been specifically within the remake’s version of OG events, not from the OG itself. That would be like if the Hunger Games books and the movies existed on parallel universes to one another and Katniss from the book teamed up with the Katniss from the movie like no, it’s just an adaptation that’s all. It’s based in the canon of the original but is free to go in it’s own direction if it so desires.

I know from a meta-perspective the result seems the same especially when Marvel and DC have run the multiverse thing into the ground, but in-universe, there’s a difference. The events of the OG are the canon that informs the remake, how those events play out is what distinguishes the continuities between the two. If the devs still consider FF7R a remake after the direction they took, I have no reason to think they wouldn’t still consider FF7R a compilation entry even if it’s future didn’t lead to AC and DoC because FF7R is still adapting and remaking FF7 either way.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But that's what would happen if there's a different post-Remake Compilation future? It's a fundamental difference of events because you'd have an entirely different future. I mean, the example used of no Geostigma, AC, Sephiroth, etc creates some new future that's a 180 from the one we have.

Yes, but weren't you just talking about the characters being fundamentally different?



Anywho, I agree that there's a close-to-zero chance of those things not happening here. Toriyama even just reiterated that loss is a central theme to FFVII, so the tragedies of geostigma and Deepground seem certain to happen here as well to me. I don't expect the developers to undermine that for the sake of an overly saccharine happy ending rather than a bittersweet ending of acceptance and moving on to try building happy endings.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don't expect the developers to undermine that for the sake of an overly saccharine happy ending rather than a bittersweet ending of acceptance and moving on to try building happy endings.

Oh the ending’s gonna be bittersweet for sure, I just don’t see the remake not leading to AC and DoC as somehow undermining them. Those stories have their place in canon, they’ve already been told, and like I’ve said probably a dozen times already, they will always be the canon follow-up to the OG.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes, but weren't you just talking about the characters being fundamentally different?

Well I meant how changing their futures and the events therein would create some inherent fundamental changes to them, that's all.

Anywho, I agree that there's a close-to-zero chance of those things not happening here. Toriyama even just reiterated that loss is a central theme to FFVII, so the tragedies of geostigma and Deepground seem certain to happen here as well to me. I don't expect the developers to undermine that for the sake of an overly saccharine happy ending rather than a bittersweet ending of acceptance and moving on to try building happy endings.

Agreed

I know from a meta-perspective the result seems the same especially when Marvel and DC have run the multiverse thing into the ground, but in-universe, there’s a difference.

I get what you're saying and you're right, but there's a point where such delineations and rampant divisions of a series can eventually muddle things to a silly a degree. I enjoy the fact that their works have not become so impenetrable and similar to western comics that juggle multiple canons and multiverses like that.

 

[Odysseus]

I dunno, kanye.

Why did I type this? Who is Kanye? Kanye West? What?

 

[KindOfBlue]

I get what you're saying and you're right, but there's a point where such delineations and rampant divisions of a series can eventually muddle things to a silly a degree. I enjoy the fact that their works have not become so impenetrable and similar to western comics that juggle multiple canons and multiverses like that.

What I’m describing is decidedly not what western comics are doing though because it wouldn’t decanonize the previous works any more than adding Whispers to the remake and changing Zack’s fate would decanonize the OG…comics were doing fine with separate universes until they decided to make them interact, which is what I think is the key difference here

Why did I type this? Who is Kanye? Kanye West? What?

This is some next-level Freudian marketing for his new album

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, comics don't necessarily always "decanonize" their other previous works. Sometimes they just exist

But you're right in regards to the whole interacting part. Then there's also the high number of them.